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> The current asking price is $2,395,000. Our experienced agents can help you determine whether that is a fair amount for the property. What's more, we'll help

> The current asking price is $2,395,000. Our experienced agents can help you determine whether that is a fair amount for the property. What's more, we'll help you strategize and submit a smart offer that will get accepted based on current market conditions. https://www.rubyhome.com/idx/461-2nd-street-san-francisco-ca-94107/21724066_spid/ https://www.rubyhome.com/idx/461-2nd-street-san-francisco-ca... The monthly HOA is $941 lol

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
FWIW I think a monthly HOA of $941 for a condo that costs $2,395,000 is low. I know places in Austin where (and this was years ago), HOA fees were $1100 for a condo in the $1.2 million range. And, to be clear, I'm not saying 941 is "cheap" on an absolute basis, just that it is for a condo that is already that expensive.
- ericbarrett 4y ago
  I remember poking around Chicago real estate early last decade, and seeing condos for $500k with $2,000/mo HOA fees. Seems to vary wildly by area.
  - b112 4y ago
    I cannot even think, what is worth that HOA. You could literally hire a full time person, 40hrs per week + give them a room in your house, for that.
    - addaon 4y ago
      Not sure how you figure? Minimum wage in Illinois comes to $2600/month for 40 hours/week. You're giving them a room in a place where the prevailing rent is clearly over $2000/month, which is hard to price at less than $1000/month (a "two roommates" situation)... so your proposed value package is well over twice the HOA fee.
      - t-3 4y ago
        No, it's not. Minimum wage in Illinois is $12/hour. 12 x 40 x 4.3 = 2064.
        addaon 4y ago
        $15.40 in Chicago, where the housing under discussion is located.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Illinois minimum wage is 11$/hour on their website, though I have also seen 12$ listed elsewhere. https://www.illinois.gov/services/service.find-minimum-wage-information.html https://www.illinois.gov/services/service.find-minimum-wage-... So 11 * 40 * 52 / 12 = 1906$/month + SS.
        addaon 4y ago
        $15.40 in Chicago, where the housing under discussion is located.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        Retric 4y ago
        Single employee is 11$/hour in Chicago unless they are a domestic worker. $15.40 for employers with 21 or more employees (including all domestic workers, regardless of the number employed) $14.50 for employers with 4-20 employees https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/bacp/supp_info/minimumwageinformation.html https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/bacp/supp_info/minimum... But, you can subtract reasonable room and board fees, so actual cost could be lower if you had a spare room and someone was willing to take the job.
      - meragrin_ 4y ago
        Nah, more than one person pays the HOA fee. Ten people paying put it at $20k a month. $4600 a month is not even a quarter of that.
    - martinflack 4y ago
      One would have to check that particular example, but in general, there are buildings in SF and NYC where the HOA fee covers amenities that are, frankly, hotel-like. Staffed gym with climbing wall, 24/7 valet parking, food can be sent up from the ground-floor cafe at no delivery cost, etc.
    - abawany 4y ago
      Everyone forgets about insurance, which often comprises a major portion of expenses especially as buildings gets older and the hoa management gets less eager to price shop.
  - rr888 4y ago
    > $2,000/mo HOA fees Sounds like it could have been a co-op which would include taxes in the HOA.
    - npc54321 4y ago
  - bsimpson 4y ago
    My first apartment in SF was a condo. The landlady offered to sell it to me, but I lost interest when I realized $1600 of the $1900 I paid in rent went to the HOA.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    HOAs can go from the bare minimum "we pay someone to mow the center divider" (some will actually exist and have no fees) to the "we pay for the entire country club this house is part of, including limo service and more". Condo HOAs usually cover the maintenance of the shared building parts (HVAC, roof, plumbing outside the units, etc). One danger sign is a condo with a HOA that is too low - it likely means maintenance is being put off or done incorrectly or you're going to get hit with a special assessment soon.
    - ericbarrett 4y ago
      Yes, but I ended up buying a 1br in SF for a comparable price. The HOA fee was $650/mo. The building had 24/7 front desk staff, twice-monthly unit cleaning service, a small gym, a hot tub, and a full-time building engineer. All the while dealing with a lawsuit against the builder for leaks. And our reserve was quite funded. Where was the money going in Chicago?
      - fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
        Probably worse maintenance issues, and no builder to fix it for them.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        If they were suing the builder, it was probably still a relatively new building. Older buildings start getting hit with the "every 20/50 years" maintenance, and also get hit with lawsuits against the building/HOA itself. Those can start to add up over time. And the size of the building can also affect it; a smaller building with the same amenities would have higher HOA fees. I personally wouldn't touch them with a fifty state pole, but some people like it.
  - conductr 4y ago
    These cost levels are either employing a lot of service (valet, doorman, etc) or are under-accrued for the big CapEx bills they have coming due (careful!)
- dijonman2 4y ago
  Another reason to avoid HOAs at all costs, over the lifetime of the property the cost is astronomical. Unfortunately all the newer homes have HOAs in my area. I am stuck with older homes or I have to buy a lot and build to get something modern. HOAs are also a breeding ground for petty arguments.
  - throw8383833jj 4y ago
    Absolutely. HOAs bring out the worst in people. If you're reading this and you don't own a house/condo yet, think twice before you buy into an HOA community. HOAs can quickly devolve to point where entire meetings are spent discussing whether or not someone should be allowed to put chickenwire on the bottom of their back fence (true story). And, unlike you're principle payment (which at least is an asset), HOA payments are something you will never see any return of value on, especially since they reduce the desirability of the property in question. If you doubt this, Just ask anyone who's had an HOA, whether or not they'd rather buy a property with an HOA or one without.
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      At the same time, you should consider possible shenanigans that your neighbors may get up to. While there is always a lot of petty stuff going on in our HOA, I also see a lot of chatter from people on nextdoor who don't live in an HOA and their neighbors can be quite annoying. Loud roosters waking you up at 4am and the like.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Many of the "hoa-style" complaints can be dealt with by careful inspection of the local laws before buying. You can find communities that ban roosters (the one I'm in does, and charges $25 a year "hen fee" for up to three hens lol). Living with other people is annoying, but you can work to mitigate the biggest issues, and sometimes the right answer might be a HOA. Investigate the HOA before buying and talk to your potential neighbors. Many people will gladly go out to dinner/drinks if you ask and bitch about any problems there may be. And there will always be problems; the key is determining if they'll be annoying enough for you to bypass it. One friend years ago pointed out that he could buy a much nicer house if he spent the HOA payment on mortgage instead; and so went that way.
- thedougd 4y ago
  If the building has shared mechanicals (hvac, etc) it could also include heating and cooling.
  - vkou 4y ago
    How is it that highrise/midrise buildings in other metro areas where suites aren't going for 3 million manage with HOA fees that are half as much? Just because the land is more expensive doesn't mean your elevator maintenance contract should be.
    - merely-unlikely 4y ago
      I'm not sure of that for a variety of reasons. Labor is more expensive in higher cost areas. Elevators in a skyscraper are built to a much more stringent code than elevators in a three story building. Building codes in general may be higher. Quality of materials and fit and finish may be higher with higher maintenance costs. There may be more regulatory hurdles to making any new construction or renovations. HOAs may include real estate/other taxes and mortgage interest payments in some cases. Tons of little things can add up.
zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Don’t forget the 27,000 annual property tax as well.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
vikingerik 4y ago
Typically, an HOA for a condo covers all maintenance interior and exterior, so that's not insane. And the ongoing cost for the HOA should be reflected in a lower up-front price, if buyers are correctly evaluating the total cost of ownership. The premise for the HOA to do this is that it's better for occupants to report problems for professional remediation, rather than to DIY or neglect them until it becomes worse for someone else in the building.
- dleslie 4y ago
  It's not insane?! I just sold a house in Vancouver after living in it for over a decade. The amortized cost of maintenance was less than 100 CAD/mo; and that included new quartz counters, a new roof, new hot water tanks, a whole yard remodel, new flooring, and so on. What the hell are they burning nearly a grand USD per month per suite on?
  - shmatt 4y ago
    Shared spaces need shared employees. Employees legal to work in the U.S, at the wages which are normal in SF (you don't want to keep hiring and have people quit after 1 month because someone is paying them more) I also find elevators to add a decent amount to the overhead Not everyone is fit for condo living, but those who do prefer to have a building manager full time on site they can talk to. They also want amenities, a gym or even a pool (which means paying a lifeguard), a rooftop or shared working space. And trust me the condo owners aren't going to go and mop that rooftop or gym, they're going to need even more employees to do that
    - dleslie 4y ago
      > And trust me the condo owners aren't going to go and mop that rooftop or gym, they're going to need even more employees to do that This is probably the meat of the cost. When I demo'd the floors the labour cost was my own time; rather than the market rate.
  - rossover 4y ago
    Some properties will include electricity and/or other utilities in that fee. A condo on the beach may include property insurance, etc.
grepLeigh 4y ago
I did say luxury - it's a historic building with many units designed by renown architects.
itisit 4y ago
An HOA below $1000 for a $2MM+ place is a steal. Would take that any day of the week.
marksmith2996 4y ago
That is extremely low. A $600k condo usually has an hoa that high.
s1mon 4y ago
There are plenty of much smaller/cheaper condos in SF with HOAs that are $1500+. I'm still baffled what they are spending that on. Here's a $860,000 condo with a $1876 HOA. https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/611-Washington-St-94111/unit-2306/home/1442220 https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/611-Washington-St-94...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  It seems like in that case: * A lot of amenities (pool and gym) are provided with the HOA. * The reason 1200 sqf in a tall building is so cheap ($860k) is probably because the high HOA is discouraging buyers.
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  From the listing: > Fees Include: Common Area Electricity, Door Person, Insurance (Common Area), Landscaping/Gardening, Management Fee, Pools, Spa, or Tennis, Reserves, Security Service, Water > HOA Amenities: Community Pool, Door Person, Elevator, Gym/ Exercise Facility That stuff costs money; if you don't want it then that isn't the building for you! Having recently moved from a condo to a non-HOA house, I am realizing how much extra time it takes to maintain a house (plus all the little extra costs here and there that add up). Condo HOAs are a mandatory convenience fee, and if you are a busy person they might really be worth it. Single-family detached house subdivisions with HOAs are a different world. Stay far far away.
- rr888 4y ago
  It includes water, what is a typical monthly water bill for SF?
fragmede 4y ago
Depends on amenities but it seems about market. Here's one at $2.5M with a monthly HOA of $1,068. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2111-Hyde-St-401-San-Francisco-CA-94109/80739052_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2111-Hyde-St-401-San-Fran...

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

FWIW I think a monthly HOA of $941 for a condo that costs $2,395,000 is low. I know places in Austin where (and this was years ago), HOA fees were $1100 for a condo in the $1.2 million range. And, to be clear, I'm not saying 941 is "cheap" on an absolute basis, just that it is for a condo that is already that expensive.

ericbarrett 4y ago
I remember poking around Chicago real estate early last decade, and seeing condos for $500k with $2,000/mo HOA fees. Seems to vary wildly by area.
- b112 4y ago
  I cannot even think, what is worth that HOA. You could literally hire a full time person, 40hrs per week + give them a room in your house, for that.
  - addaon 4y ago
    Not sure how you figure? Minimum wage in Illinois comes to $2600/month for 40 hours/week. You're giving them a room in a place where the prevailing rent is clearly over $2000/month, which is hard to price at less than $1000/month (a "two roommates" situation)... so your proposed value package is well over twice the HOA fee.
    - t-3 4y ago
      No, it's not. Minimum wage in Illinois is $12/hour. 12 x 40 x 4.3 = 2064.
      - addaon 4y ago
        $15.40 in Chicago, where the housing under discussion is located.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Illinois minimum wage is 11$/hour on their website, though I have also seen 12$ listed elsewhere. https://www.illinois.gov/services/service.find-minimum-wage-information.html https://www.illinois.gov/services/service.find-minimum-wage-... So 11 * 40 * 52 / 12 = 1906$/month + SS.
      - addaon 4y ago
        $15.40 in Chicago, where the housing under discussion is located.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        Retric 4y ago
        Single employee is 11$/hour in Chicago unless they are a domestic worker. $15.40 for employers with 21 or more employees (including all domestic workers, regardless of the number employed) $14.50 for employers with 4-20 employees https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/bacp/supp_info/minimumwageinformation.html https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/depts/bacp/supp_info/minimum... But, you can subtract reasonable room and board fees, so actual cost could be lower if you had a spare room and someone was willing to take the job.
    - meragrin_ 4y ago
      Nah, more than one person pays the HOA fee. Ten people paying put it at $20k a month. $4600 a month is not even a quarter of that.
  - martinflack 4y ago
    One would have to check that particular example, but in general, there are buildings in SF and NYC where the HOA fee covers amenities that are, frankly, hotel-like. Staffed gym with climbing wall, 24/7 valet parking, food can be sent up from the ground-floor cafe at no delivery cost, etc.
  - abawany 4y ago
    Everyone forgets about insurance, which often comprises a major portion of expenses especially as buildings gets older and the hoa management gets less eager to price shop.
- rr888 4y ago
  > $2,000/mo HOA fees Sounds like it could have been a co-op which would include taxes in the HOA.
  - npc54321 4y ago
- bsimpson 4y ago
  My first apartment in SF was a condo. The landlady offered to sell it to me, but I lost interest when I realized $1600 of the $1900 I paid in rent went to the HOA.
- bombcar 4y ago
  HOAs can go from the bare minimum "we pay someone to mow the center divider" (some will actually exist and have no fees) to the "we pay for the entire country club this house is part of, including limo service and more". Condo HOAs usually cover the maintenance of the shared building parts (HVAC, roof, plumbing outside the units, etc). One danger sign is a condo with a HOA that is too low - it likely means maintenance is being put off or done incorrectly or you're going to get hit with a special assessment soon.
  - ericbarrett 4y ago
    Yes, but I ended up buying a 1br in SF for a comparable price. The HOA fee was $650/mo. The building had 24/7 front desk staff, twice-monthly unit cleaning service, a small gym, a hot tub, and a full-time building engineer. All the while dealing with a lawsuit against the builder for leaks. And our reserve was quite funded. Where was the money going in Chicago?
    - fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
      Probably worse maintenance issues, and no builder to fix it for them.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      If they were suing the builder, it was probably still a relatively new building. Older buildings start getting hit with the "every 20/50 years" maintenance, and also get hit with lawsuits against the building/HOA itself. Those can start to add up over time. And the size of the building can also affect it; a smaller building with the same amenities would have higher HOA fees. I personally wouldn't touch them with a fifty state pole, but some people like it.
- conductr 4y ago
  These cost levels are either employing a lot of service (valet, doorman, etc) or are under-accrued for the big CapEx bills they have coming due (careful!)
dijonman2 4y ago
Another reason to avoid HOAs at all costs, over the lifetime of the property the cost is astronomical. Unfortunately all the newer homes have HOAs in my area. I am stuck with older homes or I have to buy a lot and build to get something modern. HOAs are also a breeding ground for petty arguments.
- throw8383833jj 4y ago
  Absolutely. HOAs bring out the worst in people. If you're reading this and you don't own a house/condo yet, think twice before you buy into an HOA community. HOAs can quickly devolve to point where entire meetings are spent discussing whether or not someone should be allowed to put chickenwire on the bottom of their back fence (true story). And, unlike you're principle payment (which at least is an asset), HOA payments are something you will never see any return of value on, especially since they reduce the desirability of the property in question. If you doubt this, Just ask anyone who's had an HOA, whether or not they'd rather buy a property with an HOA or one without.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    At the same time, you should consider possible shenanigans that your neighbors may get up to. While there is always a lot of petty stuff going on in our HOA, I also see a lot of chatter from people on nextdoor who don't live in an HOA and their neighbors can be quite annoying. Loud roosters waking you up at 4am and the like.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Many of the "hoa-style" complaints can be dealt with by careful inspection of the local laws before buying. You can find communities that ban roosters (the one I'm in does, and charges $25 a year "hen fee" for up to three hens lol). Living with other people is annoying, but you can work to mitigate the biggest issues, and sometimes the right answer might be a HOA. Investigate the HOA before buying and talk to your potential neighbors. Many people will gladly go out to dinner/drinks if you ask and bitch about any problems there may be. And there will always be problems; the key is determining if they'll be annoying enough for you to bypass it. One friend years ago pointed out that he could buy a much nicer house if he spent the HOA payment on mortgage instead; and so went that way.
thedougd 4y ago
If the building has shared mechanicals (hvac, etc) it could also include heating and cooling.
- vkou 4y ago
  How is it that highrise/midrise buildings in other metro areas where suites aren't going for 3 million manage with HOA fees that are half as much? Just because the land is more expensive doesn't mean your elevator maintenance contract should be.
  - merely-unlikely 4y ago
    I'm not sure of that for a variety of reasons. Labor is more expensive in higher cost areas. Elevators in a skyscraper are built to a much more stringent code than elevators in a three story building. Building codes in general may be higher. Quality of materials and fit and finish may be higher with higher maintenance costs. There may be more regulatory hurdles to making any new construction or renovations. HOAs may include real estate/other taxes and mortgage interest payments in some cases. Tons of little things can add up.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago

Don’t forget the 27,000 annual property tax as well.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

vikingerik 4y ago

Typically, an HOA for a condo covers all maintenance interior and exterior, so that's not insane. And the ongoing cost for the HOA should be reflected in a lower up-front price, if buyers are correctly evaluating the total cost of ownership. The premise for the HOA to do this is that it's better for occupants to report problems for professional remediation, rather than to DIY or neglect them until it becomes worse for someone else in the building.

dleslie 4y ago
It's not insane?! I just sold a house in Vancouver after living in it for over a decade. The amortized cost of maintenance was less than 100 CAD/mo; and that included new quartz counters, a new roof, new hot water tanks, a whole yard remodel, new flooring, and so on. What the hell are they burning nearly a grand USD per month per suite on?
- shmatt 4y ago
  Shared spaces need shared employees. Employees legal to work in the U.S, at the wages which are normal in SF (you don't want to keep hiring and have people quit after 1 month because someone is paying them more) I also find elevators to add a decent amount to the overhead Not everyone is fit for condo living, but those who do prefer to have a building manager full time on site they can talk to. They also want amenities, a gym or even a pool (which means paying a lifeguard), a rooftop or shared working space. And trust me the condo owners aren't going to go and mop that rooftop or gym, they're going to need even more employees to do that
  - dleslie 4y ago
    > And trust me the condo owners aren't going to go and mop that rooftop or gym, they're going to need even more employees to do that This is probably the meat of the cost. When I demo'd the floors the labour cost was my own time; rather than the market rate.
- rossover 4y ago
  Some properties will include electricity and/or other utilities in that fee. A condo on the beach may include property insurance, etc.

grepLeigh 4y ago

I did say luxury - it's a historic building with many units designed by renown architects.

itisit 4y ago

An HOA below $1000 for a $2MM+ place is a steal. Would take that any day of the week.

marksmith2996 4y ago

That is extremely low. A $600k condo usually has an hoa that high.

s1mon 4y ago

There are plenty of much smaller/cheaper condos in SF with HOAs that are $1500+. I'm still baffled what they are spending that on. Here's a $860,000 condo with a $1876 HOA. https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/611-Washington-St-94111/unit-2306/home/1442220 https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/611-Washington-St-94...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
It seems like in that case: * A lot of amenities (pool and gym) are provided with the HOA. * The reason 1200 sqf in a tall building is so cheap ($860k) is probably because the high HOA is discouraging buyers.
Kon-Peki 4y ago
From the listing: > Fees Include: Common Area Electricity, Door Person, Insurance (Common Area), Landscaping/Gardening, Management Fee, Pools, Spa, or Tennis, Reserves, Security Service, Water > HOA Amenities: Community Pool, Door Person, Elevator, Gym/ Exercise Facility That stuff costs money; if you don't want it then that isn't the building for you! Having recently moved from a condo to a non-HOA house, I am realizing how much extra time it takes to maintain a house (plus all the little extra costs here and there that add up). Condo HOAs are a mandatory convenience fee, and if you are a busy person they might really be worth it. Single-family detached house subdivisions with HOAs are a different world. Stay far far away.
rr888 4y ago
It includes water, what is a typical monthly water bill for SF?

fragmede 4y ago

Depends on amenities but it seems about market. Here's one at $2.5M with a monthly HOA of $1,068. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2111-Hyde-St-401-San-Francisco-CA-94109/80739052_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2111-Hyde-St-401-San-Fran...