8 ms·

> Windows was demoted to one section of the company’s Surface announcements held as a precursor to the main event. We see this with Windows and with MacOS. Mac

> Windows was demoted to one section of the company’s Surface announcements held as a precursor to the main event. We see this with Windows and with MacOS. MacOS's downfall is the more visible one. The OS is no longer prioritized except where it needs to be somewhat presentable in screenshots. The OS becomes a vehicle to sell company goods. The OS rots to the point that there's no one left at the company with even the most basic competence to create first-party apps for it. Because the money is elsewhere. I wonder at which point this neglect makes the OS so unusable that it actively hurts the development of the money-making machines. Though strangely enough MS would survive this better than Apple.

timeimp 4y ago
The “death blow” for macOS would be when you can develop, compile, test and publish iOS apps without a Mac. It would become on life support at that case. Any Apple engineers reading this - an update like Snow Leopard would go a long way!
- gw99 4y ago
  I doubt it. Most of the Mac users I know came from iOS and aren’t developers. The iOS developer community is a tiny portion of apple users.
- scarface74 4y ago
  You really think the majority of Mac users are creating iOS apps?
gw99 4y ago
Do you actually use macOS? It actually works. Unlike most of windows these days. There is near parity across all platforms on all apple apps and functions. I can transition from any device to another one smoothly. People don’t care about that. They want the computer to go away and actually stop bugging them.
- jacobr1 4y ago
  One of the other complaints you here on HN is that software is changing for sake of change rather than remaining relatively stable once the core feature-set has been built out. Well, MacOS strikes a pretty good balance on that score. They introduce new features, but haven't radically changed anything in a long time ... and that enables people to get work done.
- Hasu 4y ago
  Eh, I use macOS, Windows, and Ubuntu pretty regularly, and they're all pretty much fine. macOS gets in my way the most, but it's not significant trouble. Other workflows than mine would probably have different results.
- danielrpa 4y ago
  No it doesn't, not for me. I don't work at MSFT and I own both a Windows machine and a Mac M1 for work. Simple things like my gaming mouse and wanting larger fonts on my 1440p monitor don't work without cumbersome hacks through buggy hobby software. My windows computer works flawlessly among other advantages such as a large software library right out of the box. I respect people who prefer Macs to PCs, but stop speaking about it like it is some universal truth.
  - marcodiego 4y ago
    > Simple things like my gaming mouse If your gaming doesn't work correctly on an OS other than windows, it is probably the manufacturer fault.
    - koluna 4y ago
      Ah yes, the good ol' Linux "You're holding it wrong" mantra. Look, I don't know about you, but I don't have unlimited time to go fiddle with whatever emulation layer is there to make some game from 2017 work well on a modern Mac. Not only that, but Apple has proven, time and time again, that they completely do not care about backwards compatibility, which is crucial for games, so let's not pretend that the "manufacturer" (assuming you're talking about the game developers here) is at fault - nobody has unlimited time to adjust their product on the whims of the folks in Cupertino. Here's the reality - on Windows, I can still play DOS games. On macOS, with the latest OS release, 90% of my Steam library cannot be used (that were all perfectly fine before the update) because Apple decided to remove support for 32-bit apps. So sticking to Windows for gaming is the logical choice if you want access to the latest and greatest titles and not a selection of a few that are "hacked around".
pjmlp 4y ago
Anyone doing Windows desktop development can definitly feel this. After the mismanagement of WinRT, finally fixed with UWP on Windows 10, instead of improving the .NET Native and C++/CX experience, they created Project Reunion, deprecated .NET Native and C++/CX, replacing them with lesser tooling, pivoted Project Reunion into Windows SDK, and are years away of reaching feature parity with UWP, let alone Forms, WPF, MFC. The current team seems composed by interns without experience on previous Microsoft frameworks, while the more experienced folks seem to have moved into Azure, Google or Amazon, from their twitter feeds. Just have some fun going through the WinUI, CsWinRT, C++/WinRT, WinAppSDK, Win2D, and see the endless amount of bug tickets, measured in thousands. Blazour seems to be the new kid in town, to the point of even trying to push it inside MAUI as pseudo-Electron replacement. Meanwhile the other business units are focused on Web or Android. It looks like "Azure OS" is the new Windows.
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  I noticed the same, I can’t believe the inexperience of the developers Microsoft has picked to work on these important frameworks. It appears like a form of self sabotage.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  “The current team seems composed by interns without experience on previous Microsoft frameworks, “ That’s my suspicion too. And I believe they did the same thing with Teams and hired some interns who are learning Agile to rapidly deliver “feature”.
- nvrspyx 4y ago
  Windows really is a clusterf*k right now. In addition to the mess of frameworks that you talk about, Windows 11 has been a mess. From the random Bing-related crap getting increasingly prevalent and pervasive around the OS to the TPM fiasco (they originally let you install it on non-supported hardware but are now withholding updates). From the feature regression (e.g., taskbar is now immovable) to the yet-another-redesign that they teased/leaked during Build this year. At this point, I'd prefer an Azure OS that I could install locally and have the Windows team slowly transition to supporting Wine, improving Linux DEs/Wayland (or even create their own DE), since I believe that they're using some Wayland compositor (mutter?) for gWSL anyways, and contributing to the Linux kernel, which they're already doing to some degree. I genuinely don't know how feasible that is and I'm aware it's wishful thinking, but a person can dream. Then again, it would probably be to the Linux community's detriment and they'd just do the same scummy Bing/telemetry/dark pattern crap to foster ad revenue.

timeimp 4y ago

The “death blow” for macOS would be when you can develop, compile, test and publish iOS apps without a Mac. It would become on life support at that case. Any Apple engineers reading this - an update like Snow Leopard would go a long way!

gw99 4y ago
I doubt it. Most of the Mac users I know came from iOS and aren’t developers. The iOS developer community is a tiny portion of apple users.
scarface74 4y ago
You really think the majority of Mac users are creating iOS apps?

gw99 4y ago

Do you actually use macOS? It actually works. Unlike most of windows these days. There is near parity across all platforms on all apple apps and functions. I can transition from any device to another one smoothly. People don’t care about that. They want the computer to go away and actually stop bugging them.

jacobr1 4y ago
One of the other complaints you here on HN is that software is changing for sake of change rather than remaining relatively stable once the core feature-set has been built out. Well, MacOS strikes a pretty good balance on that score. They introduce new features, but haven't radically changed anything in a long time ... and that enables people to get work done.
Hasu 4y ago
Eh, I use macOS, Windows, and Ubuntu pretty regularly, and they're all pretty much fine. macOS gets in my way the most, but it's not significant trouble. Other workflows than mine would probably have different results.
danielrpa 4y ago
No it doesn't, not for me. I don't work at MSFT and I own both a Windows machine and a Mac M1 for work. Simple things like my gaming mouse and wanting larger fonts on my 1440p monitor don't work without cumbersome hacks through buggy hobby software. My windows computer works flawlessly among other advantages such as a large software library right out of the box. I respect people who prefer Macs to PCs, but stop speaking about it like it is some universal truth.
- marcodiego 4y ago
  > Simple things like my gaming mouse If your gaming doesn't work correctly on an OS other than windows, it is probably the manufacturer fault.
  - koluna 4y ago
    Ah yes, the good ol' Linux "You're holding it wrong" mantra. Look, I don't know about you, but I don't have unlimited time to go fiddle with whatever emulation layer is there to make some game from 2017 work well on a modern Mac. Not only that, but Apple has proven, time and time again, that they completely do not care about backwards compatibility, which is crucial for games, so let's not pretend that the "manufacturer" (assuming you're talking about the game developers here) is at fault - nobody has unlimited time to adjust their product on the whims of the folks in Cupertino. Here's the reality - on Windows, I can still play DOS games. On macOS, with the latest OS release, 90% of my Steam library cannot be used (that were all perfectly fine before the update) because Apple decided to remove support for 32-bit apps. So sticking to Windows for gaming is the logical choice if you want access to the latest and greatest titles and not a selection of a few that are "hacked around".

pjmlp 4y ago

Anyone doing Windows desktop development can definitly feel this. After the mismanagement of WinRT, finally fixed with UWP on Windows 10, instead of improving the .NET Native and C++/CX experience, they created Project Reunion, deprecated .NET Native and C++/CX, replacing them with lesser tooling, pivoted Project Reunion into Windows SDK, and are years away of reaching feature parity with UWP, let alone Forms, WPF, MFC. The current team seems composed by interns without experience on previous Microsoft frameworks, while the more experienced folks seem to have moved into Azure, Google or Amazon, from their twitter feeds. Just have some fun going through the WinUI, CsWinRT, C++/WinRT, WinAppSDK, Win2D, and see the endless amount of bug tickets, measured in thousands. Blazour seems to be the new kid in town, to the point of even trying to push it inside MAUI as pseudo-Electron replacement. Meanwhile the other business units are focused on Web or Android. It looks like "Azure OS" is the new Windows.

cjbgkagh 4y ago
I noticed the same, I can’t believe the inexperience of the developers Microsoft has picked to work on these important frameworks. It appears like a form of self sabotage.
spaetzleesser 4y ago
“The current team seems composed by interns without experience on previous Microsoft frameworks, “ That’s my suspicion too. And I believe they did the same thing with Teams and hired some interns who are learning Agile to rapidly deliver “feature”.
nvrspyx 4y ago
Windows really is a clusterf*k right now. In addition to the mess of frameworks that you talk about, Windows 11 has been a mess. From the random Bing-related crap getting increasingly prevalent and pervasive around the OS to the TPM fiasco (they originally let you install it on non-supported hardware but are now withholding updates). From the feature regression (e.g., taskbar is now immovable) to the yet-another-redesign that they teased/leaked during Build this year. At this point, I'd prefer an Azure OS that I could install locally and have the Windows team slowly transition to supporting Wine, improving Linux DEs/Wayland (or even create their own DE), since I believe that they're using some Wayland compositor (mutter?) for gWSL anyways, and contributing to the Linux kernel, which they're already doing to some degree. I genuinely don't know how feasible that is and I'm aware it's wishful thinking, but a person can dream. Then again, it would probably be to the Linux community's detriment and they'd just do the same scummy Bing/telemetry/dark pattern crap to foster ad revenue.