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> The devs seemed very friendly and responsive, but are typical exclusionary Leftists that are not welcoming to people with different beliefs What are the beli

by olliej 4y ago

> The devs seemed very friendly and responsive, but are typical exclusionary Leftists that are not welcoming to people with different beliefs What are the beliefs being excluded?

wisnoskij 4y ago
Presumably all beliefs not their own, they definitely dog-whistled that not that I can speak to that directly. But they were clearly exclusionary to different sexuality/biology.
- etchalon 4y ago
  What sexualities do you believe they're excluding?
- sjcoles 4y ago
  It's open source! Don't like it fork it! Simple as that. You're not forced to work with anyone you don't want to for any reason. This always feels like a self tell for people with a very authoritarian mindset. Just because someone like yourself would use conduct to exclude individuals from participating does not mean that others will.
  - wisnoskij 4y ago
    "You're not forced to work with anyone you don't want to for any reason." I think that is the point here. The developers had a disagreement, and now some of them and some community members, and a crowd of previous completely uninterested people are now sending death threats and spamming the forums and github. Some people do not seem to think that their is enough room in this world for disagreement and deciding to work separately.
    - thunderfork 4y ago
    - 71bw 4y ago
      [flagged]
- IntelMiner 4y ago
  This feels very "I made a transphobic comment and got removed"
- olliej 4y ago
  I asked, what are examples of beliefs that are excluded by CoCs? Most CoCs I've seen simply state a variation of "don't be an asshole", "don't act like some people aren't actually humans", etc - which seems reasonable to me: being an asshole drives away contributors, treating some people as subhuman has a similar effect. I have yet to see a CoC that limits beliefs (e.g. "no christians", "no muslims", "no atheists"), nor politics (e.g. "no democrats", "no republicans", etc), nor any other group really - I have certainly never seen any CoC that excluded sexuality or biology, and I would love an example because I think that kind of discrimination is important to acknowledge and avoid. I'm sure that you could find some smaller projects that do shit like the above, but by and large CoCs are generally boring "respect other people in the community" drivel.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    You can read the CoC here: https://github.com/PolyMC/PolyMC/blob/aecd158d3c9fce7e42143cba6e20e99a73576f75/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://github.com/PolyMC/PolyMC/blob/aecd158d3c9fce7e42143c... Doesn't seem to exclude any normal behaviour. Considering the torrent of transphobic posts related to this issue, this could be a hostile account takeover or maybe a transphobic developer. I associate the language used here with 4chan above all else, though some far-right groups use the same lingo.
    - phonicate 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    The SQLite CoE[1] comes to mind. It is the one that gets closest to exclusionary[2], but even so it's still generally well-regarded on HN when it's discussed.[3][4]. 1. https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html 2. In that it assumes a Christian God. Rules: 1, 10, 21, 41, 42, 49, 50, 58, 60, 62, 70, 72. 3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131
huimang 4y ago
What kicked this off was... adding a bog standard code of conduct. The latest commit removes this, with the message being "reclaim polymc from the leftoids". So this is a simply knee-jerk over-reaction.
- wisnoskij 4y ago
  Not adding a fairly standard CoC resulted in death threats and and people attempting to take down PolyMC and prevent people from using it and it from keeping up development. Talk about an overreaction.
  - thunderfork 4y ago
  - olliej 4y ago
    You’re absolutely right, no one should be subjected to that. The people acting like that should be excluded. However that isn’t what you originally said, which was that CoCs typically exclude people on the basis of beliefs or biology. What I have been trying to work out is who and what is being excluded, and by whom? If you are going to make that claim, you have to be able to provide concrete examples, as it’s a fairly significant issue that needs to be addressed.
    - wisnoskij 4y ago
      No, sorry. I never meant to say that, tho I guess I could argue that by their very nature CoCs are exclusionary, and the longer they are the most exclusionary they are being, at least in general, that is the entire point of them. I was trying to explain what I saw in my experience in their discord community. I don't remember the rules, or any specific interactions, it was just a overall leftist dog-whistling aura of if you are not like us you don't belong here. I never encountered anyone who was not friendly and accommodating, so while the server made me feel uncomfortable I was and remain ostentatiously a member because of being a big fan of the software product which I have used extensively for about 7 months now.
chowells 4y ago
Usually the beliefs being excluded are things like "white people are superior to all others", "there is no reason for the English language to have different words for sex and gender", or "it's acceptable to use terms for immutable characteristics as insults", etc. And let's be honest - those ideas are excluded in the name of inclusivity. If you interpret "inclusivity" as meaning "accepts everything", you end up at a paradox quite quickly. It's the paradox of tolerance, yet again. And its cause is the same thing: misunderstanding the goals based on a naive reading of the name. Inclusivity isn't about including absolutely everything. It's about maximizing the variety present. And doing that does have the cost of rejecting people who drive others away.
- adaml_623 4y ago
  "maximizing the variety present." is new to me. Is this a common idea?
  - chowells 4y ago
    It's the idea underlying any kind of "diversity" effort. Nevermind that most of those get heavily corrupted into some form red tape box-checking or internal power struggle rapidly. People will be people, no matter what they say they're doing. But that's where it started.
    - junofan 4y ago
      Why’s it only popping up where there’s power to be had or money to be made? Why don’t we need to maximize the variety present in kindergarten teachers?

by olliej 4y ago

> The devs seemed very friendly and responsive, but are typical exclusionary Leftists that are not welcoming to people with different beliefs What are the beliefs being excluded?

wisnoskij 4y ago

Presumably all beliefs not their own, they definitely dog-whistled that not that I can speak to that directly. But they were clearly exclusionary to different sexuality/biology.

etchalon 4y ago
What sexualities do you believe they're excluding?
sjcoles 4y ago
It's open source! Don't like it fork it! Simple as that. You're not forced to work with anyone you don't want to for any reason. This always feels like a self tell for people with a very authoritarian mindset. Just because someone like yourself would use conduct to exclude individuals from participating does not mean that others will.
- wisnoskij 4y ago
  "You're not forced to work with anyone you don't want to for any reason." I think that is the point here. The developers had a disagreement, and now some of them and some community members, and a crowd of previous completely uninterested people are now sending death threats and spamming the forums and github. Some people do not seem to think that their is enough room in this world for disagreement and deciding to work separately.
  - thunderfork 4y ago
  - 71bw 4y ago
    [flagged]
IntelMiner 4y ago
This feels very "I made a transphobic comment and got removed"
olliej 4y ago
I asked, what are examples of beliefs that are excluded by CoCs? Most CoCs I've seen simply state a variation of "don't be an asshole", "don't act like some people aren't actually humans", etc - which seems reasonable to me: being an asshole drives away contributors, treating some people as subhuman has a similar effect. I have yet to see a CoC that limits beliefs (e.g. "no christians", "no muslims", "no atheists"), nor politics (e.g. "no democrats", "no republicans", etc), nor any other group really - I have certainly never seen any CoC that excluded sexuality or biology, and I would love an example because I think that kind of discrimination is important to acknowledge and avoid. I'm sure that you could find some smaller projects that do shit like the above, but by and large CoCs are generally boring "respect other people in the community" drivel.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  You can read the CoC here: https://github.com/PolyMC/PolyMC/blob/aecd158d3c9fce7e42143cba6e20e99a73576f75/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://github.com/PolyMC/PolyMC/blob/aecd158d3c9fce7e42143c... Doesn't seem to exclude any normal behaviour. Considering the torrent of transphobic posts related to this issue, this could be a hostile account takeover or maybe a transphobic developer. I associate the language used here with 4chan above all else, though some far-right groups use the same lingo.
  - phonicate 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  The SQLite CoE[1] comes to mind. It is the one that gets closest to exclusionary[2], but even so it's still generally well-regarded on HN when it's discussed.[3][4]. 1. https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html 2. In that it assumes a Christian God. Rules: 1, 10, 21, 41, 42, 49, 50, 58, 60, 62, 70, 72. 3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530 4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18313131

huimang 4y ago

What kicked this off was... adding a bog standard code of conduct. The latest commit removes this, with the message being "reclaim polymc from the leftoids". So this is a simply knee-jerk over-reaction.

wisnoskij 4y ago
Not adding a fairly standard CoC resulted in death threats and and people attempting to take down PolyMC and prevent people from using it and it from keeping up development. Talk about an overreaction.
- thunderfork 4y ago
- olliej 4y ago
  You’re absolutely right, no one should be subjected to that. The people acting like that should be excluded. However that isn’t what you originally said, which was that CoCs typically exclude people on the basis of beliefs or biology. What I have been trying to work out is who and what is being excluded, and by whom? If you are going to make that claim, you have to be able to provide concrete examples, as it’s a fairly significant issue that needs to be addressed.
  - wisnoskij 4y ago
    No, sorry. I never meant to say that, tho I guess I could argue that by their very nature CoCs are exclusionary, and the longer they are the most exclusionary they are being, at least in general, that is the entire point of them. I was trying to explain what I saw in my experience in their discord community. I don't remember the rules, or any specific interactions, it was just a overall leftist dog-whistling aura of if you are not like us you don't belong here. I never encountered anyone who was not friendly and accommodating, so while the server made me feel uncomfortable I was and remain ostentatiously a member because of being a big fan of the software product which I have used extensively for about 7 months now.

chowells 4y ago

Usually the beliefs being excluded are things like "white people are superior to all others", "there is no reason for the English language to have different words for sex and gender", or "it's acceptable to use terms for immutable characteristics as insults", etc. And let's be honest - those ideas are excluded in the name of inclusivity. If you interpret "inclusivity" as meaning "accepts everything", you end up at a paradox quite quickly. It's the paradox of tolerance, yet again. And its cause is the same thing: misunderstanding the goals based on a naive reading of the name. Inclusivity isn't about including absolutely everything. It's about maximizing the variety present. And doing that does have the cost of rejecting people who drive others away.

adaml_623 4y ago
"maximizing the variety present." is new to me. Is this a common idea?
- chowells 4y ago
  It's the idea underlying any kind of "diversity" effort. Nevermind that most of those get heavily corrupted into some form red tape box-checking or internal power struggle rapidly. People will be people, no matter what they say they're doing. But that's where it started.
  - junofan 4y ago
    Why’s it only popping up where there’s power to be had or money to be made? Why don’t we need to maximize the variety present in kindergarten teachers?