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> The only somewhat free place I've seen is 4Chan but it contains so much toxicity, that's its barely bearable. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it doe

> The only somewhat free place I've seen is 4Chan but it contains so much toxicity, that's its barely bearable. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does wiggle its eyebrows meaningfully in causation's direction.

dcow 4y ago
- jslaD 4y ago
  4chan does not have the concept of “Internet points”. Are you thinking Reddit?
  - dcow 4y ago
    No. I'm talking about 4chan.
AnotherGoodName 4y ago
It tells me there's places of free speech on the internet but what is really wanted here is forced listening. Free speech on small fringe sites somehow doesn't count because it's not forced on people that don't want to see it. It's pretty clearly not a free speech issue at this point.
- btbuildem 4y ago
  That's a good observation! I get unreasonably irked when some subreddit won't let me post a comment / removes a comment. Like, "who do you think you are to limit my ability to express myself here?!" Deprived of context, my contribution is meaningless -- so, how does that interact with the freedom of speech, really? Say I'm in a crowded square where people are arguing about squids, and I have a squid-related revelation I'd like to share, but the self-appointed Guardians of the Square have gagged me. Is this an infringement on free speech? I'm free to leave the square and speak -- but what I have to say is relevant within the confines of the square, not elsewhere.
  - AnotherGoodName 4y ago
    It'd be weird and very abusable if free speech ever implied the right to a venue. If they couldn't stop people talking at their venue what's to stop someone completely sabotaging their agenda?
- triceratops 4y ago
  You've hit the nail on the head. All these "free speech absolutists" actually want "gratis reach" not "free speech".
  - Melatonic 4y ago
    Exactly. And they do not understand that with free speech does not come freedom from consequences. There are plenty of places with free speech. You can walk outside and start saying some pretty insane stuff right now and people may hate you (consequence) but you are unlikely to have any type of legal consequence. The social media one gets me the most because even if you do get rid of all moderation it is no secret that there is some algo out there amplifying some voices and not others. And in a way that is just censorship with extra steps.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
I believe that there is a time, a place, and a proper amount of just about everything, including toxicity. People who wish to interact with 4Chan and its culture need to understand what it really is. The anonymity affords unfiltered reaction and you should never expect your posts to be treated with the kind of social norms that non-anonymous and pseudo-anonymous platforms provide. While the default experience is to have your posts largely ignored, if you actually want honest and unvarnished opinions on your idea then 4Chan is the place to solicit it. As long as people go in with the understanding that nothing posted there should ever be taken seriously and that it functions as counter-cultural catharsis, the perceived toxicity becomes a feature, not a bug.
- mikkergp 4y ago
  > if you actually want honest and unvarnished opinions on your idea then 4Chan is the place to solicit it. I actually doubt the kind of trolling that happens on 4chan can be described as honest. Unvarnished maybe.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
What's being censored currently beside hate speech and child porn? There's lots of things demonitized and not getting recommended. But what else is censored?

dcow 4y ago

jslaD 4y ago
4chan does not have the concept of “Internet points”. Are you thinking Reddit?
- dcow 4y ago
  No. I'm talking about 4chan.

AnotherGoodName 4y ago

It tells me there's places of free speech on the internet but what is really wanted here is forced listening. Free speech on small fringe sites somehow doesn't count because it's not forced on people that don't want to see it. It's pretty clearly not a free speech issue at this point.

btbuildem 4y ago
That's a good observation! I get unreasonably irked when some subreddit won't let me post a comment / removes a comment. Like, "who do you think you are to limit my ability to express myself here?!" Deprived of context, my contribution is meaningless -- so, how does that interact with the freedom of speech, really? Say I'm in a crowded square where people are arguing about squids, and I have a squid-related revelation I'd like to share, but the self-appointed Guardians of the Square have gagged me. Is this an infringement on free speech? I'm free to leave the square and speak -- but what I have to say is relevant within the confines of the square, not elsewhere.
- AnotherGoodName 4y ago
  It'd be weird and very abusable if free speech ever implied the right to a venue. If they couldn't stop people talking at their venue what's to stop someone completely sabotaging their agenda?
triceratops 4y ago
You've hit the nail on the head. All these "free speech absolutists" actually want "gratis reach" not "free speech".
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Exactly. And they do not understand that with free speech does not come freedom from consequences. There are plenty of places with free speech. You can walk outside and start saying some pretty insane stuff right now and people may hate you (consequence) but you are unlikely to have any type of legal consequence. The social media one gets me the most because even if you do get rid of all moderation it is no secret that there is some algo out there amplifying some voices and not others. And in a way that is just censorship with extra steps.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

I believe that there is a time, a place, and a proper amount of just about everything, including toxicity. People who wish to interact with 4Chan and its culture need to understand what it really is. The anonymity affords unfiltered reaction and you should never expect your posts to be treated with the kind of social norms that non-anonymous and pseudo-anonymous platforms provide. While the default experience is to have your posts largely ignored, if you actually want honest and unvarnished opinions on your idea then 4Chan is the place to solicit it. As long as people go in with the understanding that nothing posted there should ever be taken seriously and that it functions as counter-cultural catharsis, the perceived toxicity becomes a feature, not a bug.

mikkergp 4y ago
> if you actually want honest and unvarnished opinions on your idea then 4Chan is the place to solicit it. I actually doubt the kind of trolling that happens on 4chan can be described as honest. Unvarnished maybe.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

What's being censored currently beside hate speech and child porn? There's lots of things demonitized and not getting recommended. But what else is censored?