7 ms·

I don't understand how it's legal for vendors to actually refuse cash. I get it that there's multiple reasons they wouldn't want to and they can say it's their

I don't understand how it's legal for vendors to actually refuse cash. I get it that there's multiple reasons they wouldn't want to and they can say it's their policy, etc but it's on the paper money itself "LEGAL tender for ALL debts public and PRIVATE". It's like when you hear the stories about people paying debts with buckets of coins. Obviously a huge PitA but technically allowed.

matja 4y ago
It's not a debt until the produce is sold. Any vendor can refuse to sell, which means there's no debt.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  This is the actual answer, stated succinctly.
- parineum 4y ago
  What about a restaurant?
  - jlarocco 4y ago
    If they give you the food before you pay then they have to take cash because you're (very briefly) in debt to them. If they make you pay before giving you the food, then they can refuse to take cash.
NegativeK 4y ago
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. That taco shop that doesn't want to deal with cash isn't a creditor.
- maxwell 4y ago
  True, but that taco shop m̶u̶s̶t̶ may have to accept cash if they want to operate in Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, D.C., Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, or Tennessee. Or Berkeley, Chicago, or San Francisco. And everywhere else in the U.S. if the Payment Choice Act passes. https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/america-legislates-for-cash https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/america-legislates-for-cash https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4395 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4395 Edit: Those jurisdictions have "pro-cash legislation" according to the ATM Industry Association Stateside Monitoring Service, but the source appears paywalled: https://www.atmia.com/advocacy/regulatory-monitoring https://www.atmia.com/advocacy/regulatory-monitoring
  - alexb_ 4y ago
    Are you positive about Michigan? My most recent interaction with a cashless store was during a trip to Detroit, where a convenience store attached to a very large bank building made a very public point about not accepting cash. To include a large banner at the entrance of the store remarking about them being proudly cash free.
    - maxwell 4y ago
      Thanks for pushing back, yeah I'm not able to confirm that list, edited my comment.
  - silisili 4y ago
    I'd 'unofficially' add NM to the list. While perhaps not a law, not accepting cash here would be an instant business death sentence. -Everyone- runs on cash.
  - wintermutestwin 4y ago
    >San Francisco Went to a concert in SF at the Independent last month and the bartenders wouldn't take cash. You're saying they were breaking the law?
cr1895 4y ago
Buying something at a shop or paying for a service is not repayment of a debt. There’s no precondition of accepting cash. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  I always considered it as a debt which only exists for a few seconds. You agree to purchase something, cashier rings it up, and in those few moments before you pay you have a debt to the shop.
  - throwup 4y ago
    That's still not a debt. If the cashier rings it up, and you try to pay with credit card and your card is declined, you can leave without buying anything. Whereas with a debt, you couldn't just change your mind like that.
DannyBee 4y ago
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm The legal tender law is about what forms of payment can validly settle a debt denominated in US currency. That is a far cry from "what must businesses accept in daily consumer purchases". Congress could likely force businesses to accept all forms of legal tender, but hasn't.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mywittyname 4y ago
Well, paper cash isn't the only way to pay for goods. The spirit of the "legal tender" statement is that that it applies to U.S. Dollars broadly, not necessarily the paper. After all, a Treasury Bond is exactly as good as paper cash. If you look at the edge cases, it becomes more clear why the federal government doesn't require businesses to accept paper cash. Imagine someone attempting to purchase a sky scraper in Manhattan with cash. That would be a mountain of bills which would be unwieldy to carry, transport, and count. Or what about if someone insisted on buying your house with all pennies. Would you like being required to accept that payment? The idea that cash shouldn't create an undue burden to a business is an important one. And that's why the federal government doesn't require the acceptance of cash for transactions. It's best to let the parties involved decide what method of payment is most appropriate.
- sophacles 4y ago
  It would be entirely reasonable to limit such a requirement with "for all transactions under $X". Similarly it would be reasonable to put in a clause about using banknotes for whole dollar parts of the total due. As for the burden: if taking money is a burden, why are you in business to begin with?
yucky 4y ago
My understanding is that it can't be refused to settle a debt, for instance your restaurant/bar/hotel tab or for paying your car note, mortgage, taxes etc. However, a store owner can choose to only accept bottle caps or conch shells in exchange for their goods if that's what they want to do. If you go up to the register and you tell them you want the widget, you have to pay whatever they're asking in exchange. Doesn't have to be cash, credit or even money of any sort.
- imtringued 4y ago
  He has to pay taxes which can only be settled with dollars.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  I wonder if this means I can use treasury bonds as payment at a restaurant (of course practically they would refuse, and I don't suggest trying this, but an interesting thought)
  - yucky 4y ago
    Hadn't thought of that, but I don't believe Treasury Bonds are considered legal tender nor do they instruct the bearer on it that they have to be accepted "for all debts, public and private". As an aside, our currency used to say that they could be exchanged for the denomination in Gold (or silver, depending on the note) on demand at the US treasury.
dynm 4y ago
Other people have pointed out that there's no federal mandate to accept cash. However, several states do require this: New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. This also appears to be true in New York (city), San Francisco, and Philadelphia.

matja 4y ago

It's not a debt until the produce is sold. Any vendor can refuse to sell, which means there's no debt.

karaterobot 4y ago
This is the actual answer, stated succinctly.
parineum 4y ago
What about a restaurant?
- jlarocco 4y ago
  If they give you the food before you pay then they have to take cash because you're (very briefly) in debt to them. If they make you pay before giving you the food, then they can refuse to take cash.

NegativeK 4y ago

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. That taco shop that doesn't want to deal with cash isn't a creditor.

maxwell 4y ago
True, but that taco shop m̶u̶s̶t̶ may have to accept cash if they want to operate in Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, D.C., Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, or Tennessee. Or Berkeley, Chicago, or San Francisco. And everywhere else in the U.S. if the Payment Choice Act passes. https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/america-legislates-for-cash https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/america-legislates-for-cash https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4395 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4395 Edit: Those jurisdictions have "pro-cash legislation" according to the ATM Industry Association Stateside Monitoring Service, but the source appears paywalled: https://www.atmia.com/advocacy/regulatory-monitoring https://www.atmia.com/advocacy/regulatory-monitoring
- alexb_ 4y ago
  Are you positive about Michigan? My most recent interaction with a cashless store was during a trip to Detroit, where a convenience store attached to a very large bank building made a very public point about not accepting cash. To include a large banner at the entrance of the store remarking about them being proudly cash free.
  - maxwell 4y ago
    Thanks for pushing back, yeah I'm not able to confirm that list, edited my comment.
- silisili 4y ago
  I'd 'unofficially' add NM to the list. While perhaps not a law, not accepting cash here would be an instant business death sentence. -Everyone- runs on cash.
- wintermutestwin 4y ago
  >San Francisco Went to a concert in SF at the Independent last month and the bartenders wouldn't take cash. You're saying they were breaking the law?

cr1895 4y ago

Buying something at a shop or paying for a service is not repayment of a debt. There’s no precondition of accepting cash. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103

mitchdoogle 4y ago
I always considered it as a debt which only exists for a few seconds. You agree to purchase something, cashier rings it up, and in those few moments before you pay you have a debt to the shop.
- throwup 4y ago
  That's still not a debt. If the cashier rings it up, and you try to pay with credit card and your card is declined, you can leave without buying anything. Whereas with a debt, you couldn't just change your mind like that.

DannyBee 4y ago

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm The legal tender law is about what forms of payment can validly settle a debt denominated in US currency. That is a far cry from "what must businesses accept in daily consumer purchases". Congress could likely force businesses to accept all forms of legal tender, but hasn't.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mywittyname 4y ago

Well, paper cash isn't the only way to pay for goods. The spirit of the "legal tender" statement is that that it applies to U.S. Dollars broadly, not necessarily the paper. After all, a Treasury Bond is exactly as good as paper cash. If you look at the edge cases, it becomes more clear why the federal government doesn't require businesses to accept paper cash. Imagine someone attempting to purchase a sky scraper in Manhattan with cash. That would be a mountain of bills which would be unwieldy to carry, transport, and count. Or what about if someone insisted on buying your house with all pennies. Would you like being required to accept that payment? The idea that cash shouldn't create an undue burden to a business is an important one. And that's why the federal government doesn't require the acceptance of cash for transactions. It's best to let the parties involved decide what method of payment is most appropriate.

sophacles 4y ago
It would be entirely reasonable to limit such a requirement with "for all transactions under $X". Similarly it would be reasonable to put in a clause about using banknotes for whole dollar parts of the total due. As for the burden: if taking money is a burden, why are you in business to begin with?

yucky 4y ago

My understanding is that it can't be refused to settle a debt, for instance your restaurant/bar/hotel tab or for paying your car note, mortgage, taxes etc. However, a store owner can choose to only accept bottle caps or conch shells in exchange for their goods if that's what they want to do. If you go up to the register and you tell them you want the widget, you have to pay whatever they're asking in exchange. Doesn't have to be cash, credit or even money of any sort.

imtringued 4y ago
He has to pay taxes which can only be settled with dollars.
alexb_ 4y ago
I wonder if this means I can use treasury bonds as payment at a restaurant (of course practically they would refuse, and I don't suggest trying this, but an interesting thought)
- yucky 4y ago
  Hadn't thought of that, but I don't believe Treasury Bonds are considered legal tender nor do they instruct the bearer on it that they have to be accepted "for all debts, public and private". As an aside, our currency used to say that they could be exchanged for the denomination in Gold (or silver, depending on the note) on demand at the US treasury.

dynm 4y ago

Other people have pointed out that there's no federal mandate to accept cash. However, several states do require this: New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. This also appears to be true in New York (city), San Francisco, and Philadelphia.