7 ms·

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being

by alexb_ 4y ago

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people use central services anyways. The point is, cash is hard to trace. And that's a good thing. I personally refuse to shop anywhere that refuses cash, and I encourage you to do the same if possible.

cbm-vic-20 4y ago
Twenty years ago, a friend of mine noted that if cash were invented today, it would be illegal.
codyb 4y ago
I think it's illegal in NYC to not accept cash and I fully support that. There are a lot of unbanked people here that have enough on their plates without further discrimination. And also cash is king and coins and bills are very neat.
- Test0129 4y ago
  > There are a lot of unbanked people here Would you support removing cash if everyone was given a bank account? Perhaps with the government? OPs point was that cash not being accepted means you have no privacy in a place you might want it. Governments love credit cards, easy pay, etc. Especially in the case where your transactions are kept with you forever so that future governments can punish you.
  - KirillPanov 4y ago
    > Would you support removing cash if everyone was given a bank account ... that couldn't be closed, limited, frozen, or surveilled? Sure! But otherwise, not a chance. Giving somebody "a bank account" is just giving them a pretty piece of paper. All the useful properties of that pretty piece of paper are revocable at a whim.
- adjkant 4y ago
  Actually not sure of the law here myself but FWIW as a NYC resident I regularly encounter places that don't accept cash.
  - lesuorac 4y ago
    Do those places sell you food? https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3763665&GUID=7800AFC9-D8B1-41FD-9C31-172565712686 https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3...
    - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
      Wow so it's illegal for NYC food business to refuse cash?
  - jdeibele 4y ago
    https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/new-york-city-set-require-stores-accept-cash https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/new-yo... "The New York City Council has approved, by a vote of 43-3, a bill that would make it unlawful for most businesses to refuse to accept payments in cash, with limited exceptions." It was supposed to go into effect November, 2020. I don't know if COVID concerns about handling cash meant that businesses were formally or tacitly allowed to require cards since they could be touchless (tap) or close to it (wipe down the hard plastic keys).
soupfordummies 4y ago
I don't understand how it's legal for vendors to actually refuse cash. I get it that there's multiple reasons they wouldn't want to and they can say it's their policy, etc but it's on the paper money itself "LEGAL tender for ALL debts public and PRIVATE". It's like when you hear the stories about people paying debts with buckets of coins. Obviously a huge PitA but technically allowed.
- matja 4y ago
  It's not a debt until the produce is sold. Any vendor can refuse to sell, which means there's no debt.
  - karaterobot 4y ago
    This is the actual answer, stated succinctly.
  - parineum 4y ago
    What about a restaurant?
    - jlarocco 4y ago
      If they give you the food before you pay then they have to take cash because you're (very briefly) in debt to them. If they make you pay before giving you the food, then they can refuse to take cash.
- NegativeK 4y ago
  https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. That taco shop that doesn't want to deal with cash isn't a creditor.
O__________O 4y ago
My understanding is that much like tracing blockchain transactions, cash is much easier to trace for governments than most people realize. For example, it is my understanding, most banks and ATMs scan serial numbers when receiving or distributing cash; oddly, banks will not give you itemized list of serial numbers of the bills they distributed, which would be useful in cash seizures. Also my understanding that most cash withdrawals are spent with vendor that deposits the larger bills back on receipt and do not recycle them back into circulation. As such, not sure what percentage of cash transactions are traceable, but not an insignificant percentage and per person, given largest enough cash flow, would be very hard to stay anonymous; which is not even account for tracing asset flows themselves related to the transactions.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  You can track where a bill was distributed, what bank it came from, who withdrew that cash, but past that you can't track any of the transactions that happen. The transactions being tracked is the important part here.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    As mentioned in comment you replied too, both cash withdrawals & deposits are scanned — and most cash is only used once between receipt and being spent before entering banks again. For small volume of cash, might be possible to remain anonymous, but for large volumes, it would be extremely hard without there being a cost to doing so and might even be technically money laundering, which is illegal. Most retail locations will not break bills without transactions and will not take unusually large bills for transactions. When combined with other methods of surveillance, such as asset tracking, location-data, security cameras, etc, it’s virtually impossible to stay anonymous at any significant scale. Core point is like blockchain, people do not realize how traceable cash is and many falsely assume it’s completely anonymous, which it is not.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    If a store makes daily deposits and those serial numbers are scanned, you can narrow down the transaction to a day. Security footage will show the transaction happening. It's a bit of work, but if that happens to you twice there aren't too many people who visited the same two stores those two days. They now know what you look like and can find your other movements across other security cameras. Bingo, you were tracked via your cash. Unless you're also an expert at disguise and also avoiding security cameras to and from the stores. Every time you buy something.
blantonl 4y ago
Cash is definitely not untraceable. There are literally serial numbers on every bill printed in the United States.
- FullMetalBitch 4y ago
  You can't track all transactions done with cash, you probably can pick a bill from 10 years ago and locate the bank it originally came from but you can't know all transactions done with that bill.
- alexandre_m 4y ago
  You can trace when/how it was printed, but not who owned it.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Agree, explained in more detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33234678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33234678
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  They said said the blockchain is "easier", not that cash is untraceable. It would require the participation of innumerable businesses to properly track cash; as it is, they function as a huge network of crypto tumblers.
kornhole 4y ago
My partner gets a little embarrassed when I make a scene about this, but I persist. My bar tab is one of the last things I want going on my permanent record.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I have not found a shop that refuses cash, but if I did I would also refuse to shop there. It shouldn't even be legal for a shop to refuse cash. I understand the grey area of some asshat coming in with $300 of pennies, but outside of those edge cases, it should be illegal to operate a physical store without accepting cash, and without putting in limits to convince people not to use cash.
- JackFr 4y ago
  Stores should be perfectly free not to accept cash. While our money says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private", that assumes there has been a meeting of the minds who agree to conclude a transaction. But up until that point I don't see an obligation. And I don't see using the force of government to compel people to do something increases their freedom.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    Which means the unbanked cannot do business there. How do the unbanked pay their electric bill? 1 of three ways. 1. They walk into the electric company directly and pay directly (no fees) 2. They walk into a store that "supports" said electric company and pay (with fees) 3. They find a kiosk that accepts the cash and pay (with fees). 1 implies they have access to a vehicle or that they take public transportation. The problem is that public transportation is trading their TIME for money, the other problem being, public transportation only exists in cities. These sorts of policies have an adverse effect on the poor, making them poorer and increasing the likelihood that they cannot exist in our society. The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash? The answer is that it's cheaper for the business. I'm ok requiring businesses to pay that expense if it means people can walk into a physical store and be guaranteed to purchase something.
    - merely-unlikely 4y ago
      > The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash? Credit card processing fees, cash collection services (ie hiring armored trucks), theft concerns (both from employees and robberies), and the accounting headache of dealing with cash are all valid reasons depending on the area and business. There are trade offs on both sides of accepting/not accepting cash.
crazygringo 4y ago
Funny, I'm the opposite. I'm a tech guy and by this point I refuse to deal with grimy dirty worn pieces of paper in order to pay for anything. If a place is cash only, they simply lose out on my business. I'm done using their shitty ATM in the back with its $5 fee, never again. And I'm done helping these cash-only businesses evade their taxes. My communications are digital. My calendar is digital. My concert tickets are digital. Even house keys are turning digital. Physical cash is an anachronism. If you need privacy, the solution needs to be encrypted value on refillable cards or a blockchain or whatever it is. But not grimy pieces of paper. Digital-only, please.
- danuker 4y ago
  Good luck during bank holidays.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    I don't know what that means...? Edit in response to comments: thanks, but it's never been a problem. I have multiple credit cards and I can call 24/7 to resolve an issue with one and use another as backup. And then there's also my debit card, Venmo, and PayPal to be able to fall back on. And if the internet is down for days across my whole city then there might be even bigger problems to be worrying about... So just never had a bank holiday as any problem, not even remotely.
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Their point is that depending on the type of non-cash transactions that if the banks are closed, internet is down, etc — banks and related methods of transferring funds are on hold or not possible until banks reopen. Recently happened to be in a bank and teller randomly mentioned that they had just updated their systems and if internet goes out they are no longer able to do any transactions, including distribute cash.
    - danuker 4y ago
      In my country, there are holidays when bank offices are unavailable. While you typically are still able to use ATMs and pay by card, any glitches you encounter can only be resolved after the banks open again. In the past month I've encountered two such glitches: once the ATM debited my account but did not give me the cash, and another when my card payment errored out repeatedly and I had to pay cash. Having some cash on hand can be prudent under these circumstances. Everything was resolved by next day, however.
josefresco 4y ago
> The point is, cash is hard to trace. When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.
- notch656a 4y ago
  If you're in a sketchy area it's possible that a lot of your customers are.... ahemm..... engaging in questionable activity with the cards they happen to have. This can skyrocket the premiums or even result in your processor dropping you.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Uh huh. When I see somebody with a locked smartphone, I think criminal with something to hide.
  - deepspace 4y ago
    Those two are not even remotely equivalent. Tax evasion through cash transactions is rampant, and there is very little actual reason for most law-abiding people to keep their transaction secret. Keeping a smartphone with your secrets locked is just good security.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Only accepting cash and locking your phone are both perfectly legal decisions that nobody needs to account for. It is your right to do either.
- deepspace 4y ago
  Exactly. The number of people who NEED to keep their transactions private for non-criminal purposes is miniscule compared to the number of tax evaders. It pains me every time I go to Costco and I see contractors dressed in their work clothes pull out a wad of cash to pay for their groceries. They are effectively getting a 30% discount on the price I pay by not processing their income through the banking system and not paying their fair share of tax on it.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
I do the same, but thankfully it's unusual that a shop refuses cash. I hope to do my part in keeping it that way.

by alexb_ 4y ago

cbm-vic-20 4y ago

Twenty years ago, a friend of mine noted that if cash were invented today, it would be illegal.

codyb 4y ago

I think it's illegal in NYC to not accept cash and I fully support that. There are a lot of unbanked people here that have enough on their plates without further discrimination. And also cash is king and coins and bills are very neat.

Test0129 4y ago
> There are a lot of unbanked people here Would you support removing cash if everyone was given a bank account? Perhaps with the government? OPs point was that cash not being accepted means you have no privacy in a place you might want it. Governments love credit cards, easy pay, etc. Especially in the case where your transactions are kept with you forever so that future governments can punish you.
- KirillPanov 4y ago
  > Would you support removing cash if everyone was given a bank account ... that couldn't be closed, limited, frozen, or surveilled? Sure! But otherwise, not a chance. Giving somebody "a bank account" is just giving them a pretty piece of paper. All the useful properties of that pretty piece of paper are revocable at a whim.
adjkant 4y ago
Actually not sure of the law here myself but FWIW as a NYC resident I regularly encounter places that don't accept cash.
- lesuorac 4y ago
  Do those places sell you food? https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3763665&GUID=7800AFC9-D8B1-41FD-9C31-172565712686 https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3...
  - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
    Wow so it's illegal for NYC food business to refuse cash?
- jdeibele 4y ago
  https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/new-york-city-set-require-stores-accept-cash https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/new-yo... "The New York City Council has approved, by a vote of 43-3, a bill that would make it unlawful for most businesses to refuse to accept payments in cash, with limited exceptions." It was supposed to go into effect November, 2020. I don't know if COVID concerns about handling cash meant that businesses were formally or tacitly allowed to require cards since they could be touchless (tap) or close to it (wipe down the hard plastic keys).

soupfordummies 4y ago

I don't understand how it's legal for vendors to actually refuse cash. I get it that there's multiple reasons they wouldn't want to and they can say it's their policy, etc but it's on the paper money itself "LEGAL tender for ALL debts public and PRIVATE". It's like when you hear the stories about people paying debts with buckets of coins. Obviously a huge PitA but technically allowed.

matja 4y ago
It's not a debt until the produce is sold. Any vendor can refuse to sell, which means there's no debt.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  This is the actual answer, stated succinctly.
- parineum 4y ago
  What about a restaurant?
  - jlarocco 4y ago
    If they give you the food before you pay then they have to take cash because you're (very briefly) in debt to them. If they make you pay before giving you the food, then they can refuse to take cash.
NegativeK 4y ago
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. That taco shop that doesn't want to deal with cash isn't a creditor.

O__________O 4y ago

My understanding is that much like tracing blockchain transactions, cash is much easier to trace for governments than most people realize. For example, it is my understanding, most banks and ATMs scan serial numbers when receiving or distributing cash; oddly, banks will not give you itemized list of serial numbers of the bills they distributed, which would be useful in cash seizures. Also my understanding that most cash withdrawals are spent with vendor that deposits the larger bills back on receipt and do not recycle them back into circulation. As such, not sure what percentage of cash transactions are traceable, but not an insignificant percentage and per person, given largest enough cash flow, would be very hard to stay anonymous; which is not even account for tracing asset flows themselves related to the transactions.

alexb_ 4y ago
You can track where a bill was distributed, what bank it came from, who withdrew that cash, but past that you can't track any of the transactions that happen. The transactions being tracked is the important part here.
- O__________O 4y ago
  As mentioned in comment you replied too, both cash withdrawals & deposits are scanned — and most cash is only used once between receipt and being spent before entering banks again. For small volume of cash, might be possible to remain anonymous, but for large volumes, it would be extremely hard without there being a cost to doing so and might even be technically money laundering, which is illegal. Most retail locations will not break bills without transactions and will not take unusually large bills for transactions. When combined with other methods of surveillance, such as asset tracking, location-data, security cameras, etc, it’s virtually impossible to stay anonymous at any significant scale. Core point is like blockchain, people do not realize how traceable cash is and many falsely assume it’s completely anonymous, which it is not.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  If a store makes daily deposits and those serial numbers are scanned, you can narrow down the transaction to a day. Security footage will show the transaction happening. It's a bit of work, but if that happens to you twice there aren't too many people who visited the same two stores those two days. They now know what you look like and can find your other movements across other security cameras. Bingo, you were tracked via your cash. Unless you're also an expert at disguise and also avoiding security cameras to and from the stores. Every time you buy something.

blantonl 4y ago

Cash is definitely not untraceable. There are literally serial numbers on every bill printed in the United States.

FullMetalBitch 4y ago
You can't track all transactions done with cash, you probably can pick a bill from 10 years ago and locate the bank it originally came from but you can't know all transactions done with that bill.
alexandre_m 4y ago
You can trace when/how it was printed, but not who owned it.
O__________O 4y ago
Agree, explained in more detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33234678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33234678
JasonFruit 4y ago
They said said the blockchain is "easier", not that cash is untraceable. It would require the participation of innumerable businesses to properly track cash; as it is, they function as a huge network of crypto tumblers.

kornhole 4y ago

My partner gets a little embarrassed when I make a scene about this, but I persist. My bar tab is one of the last things I want going on my permanent record.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I have not found a shop that refuses cash, but if I did I would also refuse to shop there. It shouldn't even be legal for a shop to refuse cash. I understand the grey area of some asshat coming in with $300 of pennies, but outside of those edge cases, it should be illegal to operate a physical store without accepting cash, and without putting in limits to convince people not to use cash.

JackFr 4y ago
Stores should be perfectly free not to accept cash. While our money says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private", that assumes there has been a meeting of the minds who agree to conclude a transaction. But up until that point I don't see an obligation. And I don't see using the force of government to compel people to do something increases their freedom.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  Which means the unbanked cannot do business there. How do the unbanked pay their electric bill? 1 of three ways. 1. They walk into the electric company directly and pay directly (no fees) 2. They walk into a store that "supports" said electric company and pay (with fees) 3. They find a kiosk that accepts the cash and pay (with fees). 1 implies they have access to a vehicle or that they take public transportation. The problem is that public transportation is trading their TIME for money, the other problem being, public transportation only exists in cities. These sorts of policies have an adverse effect on the poor, making them poorer and increasing the likelihood that they cannot exist in our society. The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash? The answer is that it's cheaper for the business. I'm ok requiring businesses to pay that expense if it means people can walk into a physical store and be guaranteed to purchase something.
  - merely-unlikely 4y ago
    > The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash? Credit card processing fees, cash collection services (ie hiring armored trucks), theft concerns (both from employees and robberies), and the accounting headache of dealing with cash are all valid reasons depending on the area and business. There are trade offs on both sides of accepting/not accepting cash.

crazygringo 4y ago

Funny, I'm the opposite. I'm a tech guy and by this point I refuse to deal with grimy dirty worn pieces of paper in order to pay for anything. If a place is cash only, they simply lose out on my business. I'm done using their shitty ATM in the back with its $5 fee, never again. And I'm done helping these cash-only businesses evade their taxes. My communications are digital. My calendar is digital. My concert tickets are digital. Even house keys are turning digital. Physical cash is an anachronism. If you need privacy, the solution needs to be encrypted value on refillable cards or a blockchain or whatever it is. But not grimy pieces of paper. Digital-only, please.

danuker 4y ago
Good luck during bank holidays.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  I don't know what that means...? Edit in response to comments: thanks, but it's never been a problem. I have multiple credit cards and I can call 24/7 to resolve an issue with one and use another as backup. And then there's also my debit card, Venmo, and PayPal to be able to fall back on. And if the internet is down for days across my whole city then there might be even bigger problems to be worrying about... So just never had a bank holiday as any problem, not even remotely.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Their point is that depending on the type of non-cash transactions that if the banks are closed, internet is down, etc — banks and related methods of transferring funds are on hold or not possible until banks reopen. Recently happened to be in a bank and teller randomly mentioned that they had just updated their systems and if internet goes out they are no longer able to do any transactions, including distribute cash.
  - danuker 4y ago
    In my country, there are holidays when bank offices are unavailable. While you typically are still able to use ATMs and pay by card, any glitches you encounter can only be resolved after the banks open again. In the past month I've encountered two such glitches: once the ATM debited my account but did not give me the cash, and another when my card payment errored out repeatedly and I had to pay cash. Having some cash on hand can be prudent under these circumstances. Everything was resolved by next day, however.

josefresco 4y ago

> The point is, cash is hard to trace. When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.

notch656a 4y ago
If you're in a sketchy area it's possible that a lot of your customers are.... ahemm..... engaging in questionable activity with the cards they happen to have. This can skyrocket the premiums or even result in your processor dropping you.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
Uh huh. When I see somebody with a locked smartphone, I think criminal with something to hide.
- deepspace 4y ago
  Those two are not even remotely equivalent. Tax evasion through cash transactions is rampant, and there is very little actual reason for most law-abiding people to keep their transaction secret. Keeping a smartphone with your secrets locked is just good security.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Only accepting cash and locking your phone are both perfectly legal decisions that nobody needs to account for. It is your right to do either.
deepspace 4y ago
Exactly. The number of people who NEED to keep their transactions private for non-criminal purposes is miniscule compared to the number of tax evaders. It pains me every time I go to Costco and I see contractors dressed in their work clothes pull out a wad of cash to pay for their groceries. They are effectively getting a 30% discount on the price I pay by not processing their income through the banking system and not paying their fair share of tax on it.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

I do the same, but thankfully it's unusual that a shop refuses cash. I hope to do my part in keeping it that way.