5 ms·

The fact that it had to be mentioned at all for a weather app is concerning & telling of the state of tech

cryptoz 4y ago
Privacy in good weather apps that are innovative can be tricky. Phones have enough sensors like barometers to be useful weather stations, and collecting that data could improve forecasts. But that also includes accurate location data, and making a useful forecast model from data collected on device is significantly more challenging when you account for privacy needs. The “telling state of tech” may be that our hardware has outpaced our ability to socially reason about how useful weather data should be collected and shared, or not shared.
- donkeyd 4y ago
  Sure, but I'm fine with sharing my data for that purpose. I also have an app that registers any possible earthquakes and shares that data with a centralized server for analysis. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as they don't sell my data to anyone who wants to market earthquake safety equipment or wants to track my location. Transparency on the use of data is important to make decisions on this type of stuff. If a weather app requests access to my barometer to improve predictions, independent of my personal data, I would fully comply with that.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    They may not sell your data, but it might be subpoenaed by a court. Or breached by a hacker. Or leaked by a coding error. Or by incorrect AWS permissions. Or an email campaign by a stupid PM.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    "Privacy" has a nebulous definition, and I don't think many of us here have concerns about supplying anonymous data to help build useful systems. We need to re-frame the issue. Individual and aggregated environmental sensor data could be used for so many good things. We can track storms, fires and floods, earthquakes, air and noise pollution, and save lives. But it is abused by a greedy, unethical few, and so the systems can no longer be trusted. Medical data, individual and aggregated, can be used to stop transmissible disease by detecting outbreaks, and improve our personal health through exercise monitoring and early issue diagnosis. But it is abused by a greedy, unethical few, and so the systems can no longer be trusted. Domestic data has the potential to manage energy, water use and air quality, keep homes safe from intruders, protect the elderly and babies. But it is abused by a greedy, unethical few, and so the systems can no longer be trusted. The pattern here looks like a tragedy of the commons. As engineers we can build systems with ostensible social utility which are then hijacked (sold, acquired, infiltrated) by "digital pirates" who turn them into systems of abuse (surveillance, manipulation and control). Each time the empty "assurances" are the same and the corruption predictable, inevitable and painful. Perhaps it is time to stop thinking about "privacy" at the level of technical measures and permissions etc, and deal with corruption and abuse, which seems intrinsic to tech, at a different level. We have the mathematical/cryptological knowledge to build better systems. but it's the unethical few who benefit from stealing our data who don't want computer systems to be secure.
    - billychuck21st 4y ago
      I think the key is to protect individual user from being harmed by misuse of the aggregated data, and provide transparency on how the data are being used. Corruption always happens for a greedy, unethical few, but with the right technologies, we can make such abuse very costly. That hopefully, would restore trust from most users.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  As a sibling commenter says, this seems legitimate use. They also probably don't need to track you for this. The data point that P pressure was detected at L location at T time should be enough. It doesn't need to know that when those parameters change, they're coming from the same user.
- krageon 4y ago
  > tricky and then you go on to say "but I would just like to not give folks privacy because it's much more convenient for me not to". That's not tricky, that's called being a shark. You are making the world a worse place by reasoning in this way and an even worse place by trying to spread it to other people.
donkeyd 4y ago
Indeed. That's why I like the privacy cards on the iOS App Store a lot. For apps like this, it makes it really easy to spot the ones that'll record my location data on their servers for some reason. It's the same with fitness tracking apps, so many of them send health data to their servers, but there are a few (often paid ones, of course) that seem to store important data only locally.
- IndySun 4y ago
  >That's why I like the privacy cards on the iOS App Store a lot Donkeyd, I find the privacy cards in the iOS app store to be an unreliable source. I will read the relevant privacy policy stating 'data not collected' to mean anything but. Do you know if the card self-reporting?
  - donkeyd 4y ago
    They are indeed self-reporting. From what I understood from a friend, you fill out a kind of questionnaire as an app publisher.
- xcambar 4y ago
  Can you name a few, please? I am very reluctant to fitness apps and devices for that exact reason and I'd really like to see a privacy friendly app. Bonus points if you know devices that can be used with local data only.
  - donkeyd 4y ago
    Interestingly, they are often developed in Germany. One I found is Fitness Point. They use Google analytics and ads, so privacy is relative. However, unlike for example apps like MyFitnessPal and apps by brands like Nike, they don't use your fitness data (like weight) for direct advertising. The major apps all have the ability to market weight loss products when you gain weight, for example, which is the thing I personally resent the most.

Privacy in good weather apps that are innovative can be tricky. Phones have enough sensors like barometers to be useful weather stations, and collecting that data could improve forecasts. But that also includes accurate location data, and making a useful forecast model from data collected on device is significantly more challenging when you account for privacy needs. The “telling state of tech” may be that our hardware has outpaced our ability to socially reason about how useful weather data should be collected and shared, or not shared.

donkeyd 4y ago
Sure, but I'm fine with sharing my data for that purpose. I also have an app that registers any possible earthquakes and shares that data with a centralized server for analysis. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as they don't sell my data to anyone who wants to market earthquake safety equipment or wants to track my location. Transparency on the use of data is important to make decisions on this type of stuff. If a weather app requests access to my barometer to improve predictions, independent of my personal data, I would fully comply with that.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  They may not sell your data, but it might be subpoenaed by a court. Or breached by a hacker. Or leaked by a coding error. Or by incorrect AWS permissions. Or an email campaign by a stupid PM.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  "Privacy" has a nebulous definition, and I don't think many of us here have concerns about supplying anonymous data to help build useful systems. We need to re-frame the issue. Individual and aggregated environmental sensor data could be used for so many good things. We can track storms, fires and floods, earthquakes, air and noise pollution, and save lives. But it is abused by a greedy, unethical few, and so the systems can no longer be trusted. Medical data, individual and aggregated, can be used to stop transmissible disease by detecting outbreaks, and improve our personal health through exercise monitoring and early issue diagnosis. But it is abused by a greedy, unethical few, and so the systems can no longer be trusted. Domestic data has the potential to manage energy, water use and air quality, keep homes safe from intruders, protect the elderly and babies. But it is abused by a greedy, unethical few, and so the systems can no longer be trusted. The pattern here looks like a tragedy of the commons. As engineers we can build systems with ostensible social utility which are then hijacked (sold, acquired, infiltrated) by "digital pirates" who turn them into systems of abuse (surveillance, manipulation and control). Each time the empty "assurances" are the same and the corruption predictable, inevitable and painful. Perhaps it is time to stop thinking about "privacy" at the level of technical measures and permissions etc, and deal with corruption and abuse, which seems intrinsic to tech, at a different level. We have the mathematical/cryptological knowledge to build better systems. but it's the unethical few who benefit from stealing our data who don't want computer systems to be secure.
  - billychuck21st 4y ago
    I think the key is to protect individual user from being harmed by misuse of the aggregated data, and provide transparency on how the data are being used. Corruption always happens for a greedy, unethical few, but with the right technologies, we can make such abuse very costly. That hopefully, would restore trust from most users.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
As a sibling commenter says, this seems legitimate use. They also probably don't need to track you for this. The data point that P pressure was detected at L location at T time should be enough. It doesn't need to know that when those parameters change, they're coming from the same user.
krageon 4y ago
> tricky and then you go on to say "but I would just like to not give folks privacy because it's much more convenient for me not to". That's not tricky, that's called being a shark. You are making the world a worse place by reasoning in this way and an even worse place by trying to spread it to other people.

donkeyd 4y ago

Indeed. That's why I like the privacy cards on the iOS App Store a lot. For apps like this, it makes it really easy to spot the ones that'll record my location data on their servers for some reason. It's the same with fitness tracking apps, so many of them send health data to their servers, but there are a few (often paid ones, of course) that seem to store important data only locally.

IndySun 4y ago
>That's why I like the privacy cards on the iOS App Store a lot Donkeyd, I find the privacy cards in the iOS app store to be an unreliable source. I will read the relevant privacy policy stating 'data not collected' to mean anything but. Do you know if the card self-reporting?
- donkeyd 4y ago
  They are indeed self-reporting. From what I understood from a friend, you fill out a kind of questionnaire as an app publisher.
xcambar 4y ago
Can you name a few, please? I am very reluctant to fitness apps and devices for that exact reason and I'd really like to see a privacy friendly app. Bonus points if you know devices that can be used with local data only.
- donkeyd 4y ago
  Interestingly, they are often developed in Germany. One I found is Fitness Point. They use Google analytics and ads, so privacy is relative. However, unlike for example apps like MyFitnessPal and apps by brands like Nike, they don't use your fitness data (like weight) for direct advertising. The major apps all have the ability to market weight loss products when you gain weight, for example, which is the thing I personally resent the most.