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You're not wrong, the NHTSA should be more proactive on this stuff. But to be fair, drunk drivers kill 28 people a day in this country, or about 10k people per

by bb88 4y ago

You're not wrong, the NHTSA should be more proactive on this stuff. But to be fair, drunk drivers kill 28 people a day in this country, or about 10k people per year. 3k people die at signalled intersections every year, or around 8ish per day. While Tesla shouldn't be beta testing their self driving cars on public roads, it's clear that human behavior and existing road design is still vastly worse.

prng2021 4y ago
Yes drunk driving is a terrible problem but beta testing software on the open road is not the only option available. It's nothing but irresponsible. Here's one of many: use sensors and AI in the car to detect a drunk person behind the wheel. This is HN so I'm sure readers could spend 10 seconds and think of numerous ways this could be accomplished and many otherideas about what could be done when a drunk driver is detected. I also think the NHTSA should have prevented companies like Tesla from behind allowed to put every single control behind a touchscreen. It's extremely dangerous to have to look away for 2 seconds when you're driving. Imagine if (when?) every car in the world adopted this and all drivers are having to look at a screen to turn on windshield wipers.
- bb88 4y ago
  You may find it interesting the NHTSA is pushing for breathalizers in cars starting in 2026. Personally I'm more in favor of smart road like technologies where a highway has a mechanical or physical properties to assist self-driving vehicles stay in line with the road. Mostly because a 100% software solution will likely not work, particularly in the midwest and great lakes states during the wintertime. It need not be expensive either. Magnetic nails embedded in the road would maybe be the cheapest way, and would be easy for both city and rural populations to add, and be detectable with icy and snowy conditions.
  - andrewflnr 4y ago
    Of course they're doing something dystopian instead of something sensible. But yes, I bet even better standardized road markings would be a huge help for self driving cars. I wonder if there's something stupid simple like a paint additive that would make it easy for machines to track. Magnetic beads?
    - waste_monk 4y ago
      Then any asshole could mix up their own magnetic bead paint and cause havoc. Probably no more than someone painting their own road lines or putting up fake signage does now [1], but if you want something that's better than what we currently have it would need to not only be both machine and human readable, but also authenticated. I always thought it would be quite neat to have those portable roadside displays you see for roadworks and so on also communicate map and driving data (cryptographically signed by your local council or dept of transport). So you might get a sign that says "roadworks ahead, please slow down" for human drivers, and the radio beacon would communicate a change of speed limits inside a certain geo-bounded area that would cause self-driving vehicles to slow down. Or similar stuff for "bridge out ahead, turn around now" causing navigation to reroute. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-driving-cars/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-dri...
      - sgtnoodle 4y ago
        Just have the human readable signs be reasonably standardized, and the self driving car computer can then read them too. It's a lot easier and more future proof to side-channel map updates to cars through a cell network, and allows for some curation. Also, improved cell network coverage seems like a more worthwhile capital expenditure for a local government than a bunch of smart signs that only help 0.001% of drivers. Cynically, I'm sure some politician's spouse's cousin would be happy to win the contract to slap a BLE beacon into a box and bolt it onto a sign for $150k a unit, though... There is an ongoing effort to introduce infrastructure free direct communication for vehicles, using 5.9ghz spectrum. The spectrum was previously allocated to DSRC radio technology the automotive industry pushed for, but it's been 15 years and it hasn't gone anywhere. The FCC is now letting the cell network folk take a crack at solving the problem instead.
        kwhitefoot 4y ago
        > Just have the human readable signs be reasonably standardized, and the self driving car computer can then read them too. This is already the case in Europe.
  - prng2021 4y ago
    Nice, I hadn't heard about that. Apparently there's a company working on using light to detect blood alcohol level so you can use a touch sensor. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/20/1124171320/autos-drunk-driving-blood-alcohol-system-ntsb https://www.npr.org/2022/09/20/1124171320/autos-drunk-drivin...
    - twobitshifter 4y ago
      They also need to enforce the speed. In that story the drunk driver was driving 90 mph.
  - bdamm 4y ago
    Quality steel nails are expensive, roads are very plentiful, and sensors have noise. Also, staying in a lane is not the problem. Teslas and pretty much all other quality brands sold today do it already. The problem is complex behavior like merging and routing around obstacles (like a person changing their tire.) Cheaper and easier would be surveying and improving road markings. As for snow, well, my Tesla maintains lane position in snow fairly well, and gets better all the time. No magic nails required.
    - saiya-jin 4y ago
      What a surreal read... where are all the cases of Tesla hitting stuff it clearly shouldn't, that no real sane driver would ever do? Also, 'maintaining position fairly well' is too low bar in situation where mistakes can and do cost lives. I am all up for people willingly do beta testing for Tesla they even have to pay for, but it should be clearly marked and explained as so in contracts. The thing is, most folks are not aware of this at all. As things are now, Tesla's and Musk's lies (this and auto drive) cast a pretty bad picture on morals of that company.
      - krisoft 4y ago
        Bb8 proposes that we should install magnetic nails in our roads. Bdamm counters that magnetic nails would help with lane keeping, but that is clearly not the part self driving cars have the most trouble with. As you astutely observe “ hitting stuff it clearly shouldn't” is the problem. Which magnetic nails in the road would not help even a bit. > 'maintaining position fairly well' is too low bar in situation where mistakes can and do cost lives Yes! And again. Maintaining position is the only thing magnetic nails in the road would help with. Bdamm was not arguing that the car keep lane position therefore it is good. Bdamm was arguing that magnetic nails would not help with the real problems. > What a surreal read That is exactly my opinion about your comment. Can you follow two sentences stringed together?
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        > where are all the cases of Tesla hitting stuff it clearly shouldn't, that no real sane driver would ever do? Real sane drivers hit stuff all the time. Miscalculated takeovers ending up in frontal collisions (these can be really REALLY fucking nasty, two 3-ton SUVs @ 100km/h have a lot of potential energy), trucks crashing into traffic jam rear ends and squashing together a dozen cars in front of them, people mistaking stairs to a train station as a car parking ramp (this is a common occurrence here in Munich [1])... the simple thing is, as long as an instance of an object is on a road, one of the instances will eventually get hit by a stupid mistake of someone. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-marienhof-u-bahn-unfall-suv-1.4617371 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-marienhof-u-ba...
  - fortylove 4y ago
    I've wondered about the possibility of such a nail mechanism being tampered with. Sounds a bit dangerous to blindly trust such a mechanism
  - xani_ 4y ago
    > You may find it interesting the NHTSA is pushing for breathalizers in cars starting in 2026. Yeah, another idiocy. They aren't reliable and need constant calibration, good luck driving a car full of drunks as designated driver...
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    Lane following isn't the hard part of self driving cars. I wouldn't say it's trivial, but it's a minor detail compared to everything else that also needs to work reliably 99.9999% of the time. Such infrastructure might help make cheaper lane-keep assist as standard options I guess, but at the speeds where it matters for safety, you need significant look-ahead on the trajectory rather than just lateral position error. I suppose you could go crazy and embed some sort of NFC into the road, so that it can communicate the lane geometry. It could probably even be done cleverly, perhaps by embedding multiple nails and encoding curvature in their spacing, or maybe in the orientation of the magnetic flux itself. All that to avoid some front facing cameras and image processing, though, that can also be used to detect other cars and pedestrians.
    - fastball 4y ago
      Do you need everything to work reliably 99.9999% of the time? Is that the reliability rating of human drivers?
      - Retric 4y ago
        Depnds on how you count. If you consider every ~5 seconds you could have an accident, and a minor or worse accident happens once every 2,000 to 20,000 hours of driving that’s 99.99993% to 99.999993% reliability. On the other hand if you start talking per trio then we aren’t even close to that.
        fastball 4y ago
        Why in the world would you count in 5 second intervals? If the measure is accidents per hour you don't then divide it by 5s. Reliability with 1 accident per 2k hours would be 99.95%. Reliability for 1 accident per 20k hours is 99.995%.
        Retric 4y ago
        Five seconds seems roughly how long it would take for really bad choices to cause an accident. In heavy traffic you can cause an accident by steering into a car in under a second. I am sure someone has had two independent accidents in under a minute. An hour on the other hand is completely arbitrary, why not a day or a minute?
  - Animats 4y ago
    Magnetic nails embedded in the road Volvo wanted to do that, in Sweden. They pointed out that it would also be useful for snowplow guidance. That's often done by putting up poles at the side of the road.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      Volvo are just trying to get someone else to provide the infrastructure for self driving. I live in Norway, the poles at the side of the road are not just for the snowploughs, they are very helpful for human beings too. Magnetic nails embedded in the road are not at all useful to humans and are just more stuff to maintain, especially in an environment where simply maintaining centre and edge markings is a difficult and time consuming job.
      - BurningFrog 4y ago
        Roads should provide the infrastructure for driving.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    It's a train. You're inventing trains but much worse and not available to the poor. Just build a train.
    - jlund-molfese 4y ago
      If everyone lives right by the train station that’s fine. What about people in wheelchairs who live in the countryside and prefer to be dropped off at their doorstep? Or someone who can’t drive themself but could use an autonomous car or taxi to go to the hospital in an emergency situation (without waiting a while for the next open train)?
      - dontlaugh 4y ago
        Most people already live near a train, tram or bus station. Or somewhere it would be worth building one anyway. Taxis already exist, just like trains they work fine. Personal cars will likely always exist, but only a small minority absolutely needs one. The bulk of human transportation doesn’t need cars.
        jlund-molfese 4y ago
        Trains are great. They’re safer, more efficient, and often more convenient than cars. But it’s not either-or. My comment was emphasizing that smart road technologies would be useful to many people also. There are many places where it’s not possible or desirable to build train infrastructure—these are areas that can be served by autonomous vehicles.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        > What about people in wheelchairs who live in the countryside and prefer to be dropped off at their doorstep? The important thing is to build a system that works for wide masses - even replacing half of individual car transit by rail and bus works wonders for space consumption [1]. The more complex cases - rural people, mostly - can be dealt with later on, e.g. by providing something like a "phone bus" service. Here in Germany, we're experimenting with on-demand buses [3]: they serve the existing station network, but unlike the usual village buses that run every two hours or worse, you can order them like a taxi and use your existing public transport ticket. Saying "no" by default because a system is not entirely perfect at the beginning is a destructive discussion tactic that only serves those in power. > Or someone who can’t drive themself but could use an autonomous car or taxi to go to the hospital in an emergency situation (without waiting a while for the next open train)? Someone in an emergency situation should just be able to call an ambulance. That's what they exist for. Ideally, someone in an emergency situation should also not have to fear going bankrupt (to the tune that this scenario has become a meme in itself [2]). [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Comparative-efficiency-of-buses-and-cars-in-road-space-use_fig4_336280478 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Comparative-efficiency-o... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/utbn5z/a_man_kept_running_away_from_the_ambulance/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/utbn5z/a_man_k... [3] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/landkreismuenchen/landkreis-muenchen-oepnv-rufbus-sammeltaxi-mvv-1.5675405 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/landkreismuenchen/landk...
  - ericmay 4y ago
    People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. If we want to lower drunk driving incidence rates we need people walking to the bar or taking public transit. It requires us to fix our outdated and asinine transit culture. All of the technical solutions in the world can’t solve this problem because they’re solving for the wrong thing (safer cars) when we should be solving for reduction in driving.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      >People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. List of choices: 1. Not drink alcohol 2. Drink less alcohol, and switch to water at least 1 hour before driving. 3. Pay for a driver 4. Live where you can walk to an establishment that serves alcohol 5. Rent a hotel room nearby And so on and so forth. Drunk driving is certainly a choice, one made because the perceived or true cost of drunk driving is less than the cost of not driving drunk.
      - piaste 4y ago
        6. Sleep in your car I think it's important to add this one because it's free and doesn't even require previous planning, so it's very hard to argue that you couldn't do it instead of driving drunk. (Although keeping a blanket in your trunk makes it a much better experience.)
        tacticalturtle 4y ago
        You definitely will run into legal issues depending on the state. Some states like California you can only get a DUI if there’s evidence you moved your car, but in other states it’s a lot less clear - and you can be charged with any appearance of intent to drive, like sleeping in the driver’s seat. Not to mention the possibility of getting a trespassing charge in a private lot overnight.
        4y ago
  - danaris 4y ago
    Any solution to self-driving cars (that purports to be a universal solution) that requires specific modifications to the roads is doomed to failure. Even leaving aside all the gravel and dirt roads, and the many places where, at any given time, there's construction moving a lane 5 to 15 feet to one side temporarily, do you know how many miles of road there are in the US alone? I sure don't, but I know it's a staggering amount, a hell of a lot of it is rural (and some seasonal), and getting all of it retrofitted with even the most simple and low-tech self-driving guidance assist tech like your magnetic nails would cost vast amounts of money and either take a decade or three or cost about ten times as much.
  - wanderingmoose 4y ago
    Caltrans had pilot program in the mid-1990's running self driving cars that used magnets embedded in the road. They would run "caravans" of five-ish vehicles driving almost bumper to bumper. This was tested on the car pool lanes on sections of a highway between los angeles and san diego. This was a partnership between caltrans, the college of engineering at uc berkeley amongst others. Unfortunately I can find any readily available links, but all of the data should be public. I'm only aware of this because I worked w/ some of the technical groups on the project (very tangentially involved). I know the magnets were always considered a problem (cost/effort), but there weren't other options at the time, as computer vision was too computationally expensive at the time.
- m463 4y ago
  Have you driven a tesla? I think they help with the driving. That said, touchscreen controls (with tiny targets) instead of dedicated controls and the new square steering wheel with touch controls instead of stalks... gah!
- wheybags 4y ago
  No need for fancy sensors and ai - I used an electric scooter rental in Germany recently, and it made me do a reaction speed test on my phone before starting. Super easy.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    Are they worried you'll kill someone with your electric scooter?
    - exclusiv 4y ago
      It happens as it causes swerves and crashes. Deer do this too. With a deer your best course of action is to try and stop but mow it over if necessary. With a person swerving on a bike or moped, you may not be able to stop in time and most likely swerve.
    - willsmith72 4y ago
      They're worried you'll kill yourself
      - JamesBarney 4y ago
        If people can get on an escorted i wonder if they wall or uber. If they walk i could totally see the total number of fatalities being hire than escooting. Similar to how drunken walking has a higher fatality raid than drunken driving/biking.
    - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
      Yes, especially yourself if you aren't wearing a helmet. More commonly, though, the electric scooters cause injuries and accidents. Starting next year, Norway is requiring insurance for them and rental prices will surely increase in response.
    - twobitshifter 4y ago
      It is inexplicable how e scooters are treated like death machines in comparison to 4000 pound SUVs which get no restrictions. Scooters have regulated speed, zones that are banned from use, reaction tests, sidewalk restrictions and on and on. You would think there were thousands of e scooter deaths per year.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  If it gets us to autonomy 6 months earlier that could easily save 50x as many lives as deaths it's caused.
Rebelgecko 4y ago
Didn't the infrastructure bill have a clause saying that all cars have to start using alcohol detecting interlocks in a few years?
m463 4y ago
They say in this article: the National Transportation Safety Board conducted an investigation finding that the government should not be actively restricting headlamp systems that have been shown to have a safety benefit. So I can imagine this sort of thinking coming down on telsa's side of the argument. Personally, although tesla does "market" their technology, I think it is good technology that has probably not only saved a fair number of lives, but also bumpers and fenders. Looking at the storied history of the airbag, I think telsa did a good job assisting the driver (and customer) when the status quo for other car manufacturers was to innovate at a snail's pace and implement safety features mostly when required.
silisili 4y ago
Drunk driving is a legal issue. The entire problem is that it's not treated seriously, and super easy to get out of. Yes, even in fatal accidents. If the US really cared, drunk and distracted driving would have appropriate sentencing. For god knows what reason, we're still not there yet.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Some judges have taken the opinion that the infrastructure is so car dependent that you can't have a license revoked lest you lose the entire ability to be a self-sufficient member of society. And in parts of the US, that's true. As a general example, how many nightlife areas have decent public transportation at bar closing to avoid committing a DUI?
  - ReptileMan 4y ago
    taxi/cab exist...
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      How many people can afford to pay a cab for every trip they make?
      - ReptileMan 4y ago
        If you can aford to get wasted in a bar, you afford the car ride to take you home
        silisili 4y ago
        I'm obviously not defending drunk driving, but for many people, remember to double that cost. You either have to take an uber both ways, or get an uber home, then back to your car in the morning. I used to just Uber if I thought I'd be drinking at -all-, but hell that costed me about 60 to 70 bucks which definitely isn't realistic for most young people looking to just have a few beers out.
rswail 4y ago
The problem is not drunk drivers but incapacitated drivers, whether due to alcohol, drugs, lack of sleep, distractions (mobile phones), etc. The fix is not arbitrary alcohol blood levels, or extending the "War on Drugs", but with standardized, enforced, in-vehicle continuous testing that ensures that the driver is awake, responsive, and in control of the vehicle. That is something where R&D in AI/ML/software to analyze and detect incapacity could/should be directed. It can be entirely on/in-vehicle, with access to the data only available to law enforcement (and, perhaps, insurance companies), if and when it is needed to determine liability (not as a general "carte blanche" for the data), in the same way that aircraft black boxes are only analyzed for investigation after an incident.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  I have a suspicion that most accidents involve the worst 10% of drivers. I'd like to see research into ways to identify those drivers and encourage them to improve their driving skill. For example, one way might be to make a register of driving skill public information, and then insurance companies can jack their prices up for those people unless they go on and pass (government funded) extra training courses. Such a register could simply be an open database of insurance claims, or police crash records showing the names of people involved.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    Here's a starting point for you - "Estimating likelihood of future crashes for crash-prone drivers" at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095756415000252 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209575641... . > At-fault crash-prone drivers are usually considered as the high risk group for possible future incidents or crashes. In Louisiana, 34% of crashes are repeatedly committed by the at-fault crash-prone drivers who represent only 5% of the total licensed drivers in the state. ... From the findings, it is recommended that crash-prone drivers should be targeted for special safety programs regularly through education and regulations.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    >Such a register could simply be an open database of insurance claims, or police crash records showing the names of people involved. In the US, these are CLUE and A-PLUS https://risk.lexisnexis.com/products/clue-auto https://risk.lexisnexis.com/products/clue-auto https://www.verisk.com/insurance/products/a-plus-commercial/ https://www.verisk.com/insurance/products/a-plus-commercial/
lozenge 4y ago
What on earth does drunk driving have to do with Tesla's self driving software? You could argue for Waymo, which is actually capable of going without human assistance, not Tesla which is clearly not going to deliver on that.
- cypress66 4y ago
  That in theory Tesla fsd will be level 4 or 5 in the future.
bmitc 4y ago
> it's clear that human behavior and existing road design is still vastly worse Is that true? Those human statistics take every human car and driver into account, not just Teslas. I have never seen data that shows self-driving cars anywhere close to human driving capability. If we replaced every car on the road with "self-driving" Teslas, it would be mayhem.
- fallingknife 4y ago
  If we replaced every car, it would be an easy problem. The issue is having to replace one at a time while everyone else on the road is still human.
  - spookie 4y ago
    Or... Just make public transportation work? Is this just that difficult to get on the anglosphere or something? I still cannot grasp what people are trying to do with this, really. Why are they trying to do public transports... With cars? You guys do realize most of accidents come from urban/chaotic areas, right? You don't have to use a car to solve this.
    - fallingknife 4y ago
      The percentage of people in the US that live in an area dense enough where even an ideally designed public transport system would match the convenience of a car is in the low single digits. When I go to European cities with these great public transportation systems everybody loves to talk about, what to I see on the road? Lots of cars. Cars aren't going anywhere.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Most of the "teslas are safer than other cars!" stats are severely biased because: 1)Teslas are "luxury" vehicles, much higher-end than the average US car. A base Model S, or average model 3, costs twice the average US car cost. They are as a result significantly better equipped with safety features and have better crash engineering. In terms of driver assistance, the auto industry was pretty belligerent about backup cameras being mandated, just to give one example. 2)Teslas are on a whole significantly newer than the average US car. The average age of a car on the road in the US is twenty years old. Of course a Tesla with safety features not available until ~10 years ago (or less) is safer than a 1999 anything. If people said "my electric Mercedes is significantly safer than the average car, so Mercedes should be allowed to beta-test their software, which despite after many years of development is proven to randomly slam on the brakes, or drive into the back of emergency vehicles, and is shown on numerous videos to violate traffic laws, suddenly veer at poles and barriers and pedestrians and cyclists" ...they'd be laughed out of the room on a number of points.

by bb88 4y ago

prng2021 4y ago

Yes drunk driving is a terrible problem but beta testing software on the open road is not the only option available. It's nothing but irresponsible. Here's one of many: use sensors and AI in the car to detect a drunk person behind the wheel. This is HN so I'm sure readers could spend 10 seconds and think of numerous ways this could be accomplished and many otherideas about what could be done when a drunk driver is detected. I also think the NHTSA should have prevented companies like Tesla from behind allowed to put every single control behind a touchscreen. It's extremely dangerous to have to look away for 2 seconds when you're driving. Imagine if (when?) every car in the world adopted this and all drivers are having to look at a screen to turn on windshield wipers.

bb88 4y ago
You may find it interesting the NHTSA is pushing for breathalizers in cars starting in 2026. Personally I'm more in favor of smart road like technologies where a highway has a mechanical or physical properties to assist self-driving vehicles stay in line with the road. Mostly because a 100% software solution will likely not work, particularly in the midwest and great lakes states during the wintertime. It need not be expensive either. Magnetic nails embedded in the road would maybe be the cheapest way, and would be easy for both city and rural populations to add, and be detectable with icy and snowy conditions.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  Of course they're doing something dystopian instead of something sensible. But yes, I bet even better standardized road markings would be a huge help for self driving cars. I wonder if there's something stupid simple like a paint additive that would make it easy for machines to track. Magnetic beads?
  - waste_monk 4y ago
    Then any asshole could mix up their own magnetic bead paint and cause havoc. Probably no more than someone painting their own road lines or putting up fake signage does now [1], but if you want something that's better than what we currently have it would need to not only be both machine and human readable, but also authenticated. I always thought it would be quite neat to have those portable roadside displays you see for roadworks and so on also communicate map and driving data (cryptographically signed by your local council or dept of transport). So you might get a sign that says "roadworks ahead, please slow down" for human drivers, and the radio beacon would communicate a change of speed limits inside a certain geo-bounded area that would cause self-driving vehicles to slow down. Or similar stuff for "bridge out ahead, turn around now" causing navigation to reroute. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-driving-cars/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-dri...
    - sgtnoodle 4y ago
      Just have the human readable signs be reasonably standardized, and the self driving car computer can then read them too. It's a lot easier and more future proof to side-channel map updates to cars through a cell network, and allows for some curation. Also, improved cell network coverage seems like a more worthwhile capital expenditure for a local government than a bunch of smart signs that only help 0.001% of drivers. Cynically, I'm sure some politician's spouse's cousin would be happy to win the contract to slap a BLE beacon into a box and bolt it onto a sign for $150k a unit, though... There is an ongoing effort to introduce infrastructure free direct communication for vehicles, using 5.9ghz spectrum. The spectrum was previously allocated to DSRC radio technology the automotive industry pushed for, but it's been 15 years and it hasn't gone anywhere. The FCC is now letting the cell network folk take a crack at solving the problem instead.
      - kwhitefoot 4y ago
        > Just have the human readable signs be reasonably standardized, and the self driving car computer can then read them too. This is already the case in Europe.
- prng2021 4y ago
  Nice, I hadn't heard about that. Apparently there's a company working on using light to detect blood alcohol level so you can use a touch sensor. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/20/1124171320/autos-drunk-driving-blood-alcohol-system-ntsb https://www.npr.org/2022/09/20/1124171320/autos-drunk-drivin...
  - twobitshifter 4y ago
    They also need to enforce the speed. In that story the drunk driver was driving 90 mph.
- bdamm 4y ago
  Quality steel nails are expensive, roads are very plentiful, and sensors have noise. Also, staying in a lane is not the problem. Teslas and pretty much all other quality brands sold today do it already. The problem is complex behavior like merging and routing around obstacles (like a person changing their tire.) Cheaper and easier would be surveying and improving road markings. As for snow, well, my Tesla maintains lane position in snow fairly well, and gets better all the time. No magic nails required.
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    What a surreal read... where are all the cases of Tesla hitting stuff it clearly shouldn't, that no real sane driver would ever do? Also, 'maintaining position fairly well' is too low bar in situation where mistakes can and do cost lives. I am all up for people willingly do beta testing for Tesla they even have to pay for, but it should be clearly marked and explained as so in contracts. The thing is, most folks are not aware of this at all. As things are now, Tesla's and Musk's lies (this and auto drive) cast a pretty bad picture on morals of that company.
    - krisoft 4y ago
      Bb8 proposes that we should install magnetic nails in our roads. Bdamm counters that magnetic nails would help with lane keeping, but that is clearly not the part self driving cars have the most trouble with. As you astutely observe “ hitting stuff it clearly shouldn't” is the problem. Which magnetic nails in the road would not help even a bit. > 'maintaining position fairly well' is too low bar in situation where mistakes can and do cost lives Yes! And again. Maintaining position is the only thing magnetic nails in the road would help with. Bdamm was not arguing that the car keep lane position therefore it is good. Bdamm was arguing that magnetic nails would not help with the real problems. > What a surreal read That is exactly my opinion about your comment. Can you follow two sentences stringed together?
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > where are all the cases of Tesla hitting stuff it clearly shouldn't, that no real sane driver would ever do? Real sane drivers hit stuff all the time. Miscalculated takeovers ending up in frontal collisions (these can be really REALLY fucking nasty, two 3-ton SUVs @ 100km/h have a lot of potential energy), trucks crashing into traffic jam rear ends and squashing together a dozen cars in front of them, people mistaking stairs to a train station as a car parking ramp (this is a common occurrence here in Munich [1])... the simple thing is, as long as an instance of an object is on a road, one of the instances will eventually get hit by a stupid mistake of someone. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-marienhof-u-bahn-unfall-suv-1.4617371 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-marienhof-u-ba...
- fortylove 4y ago
  I've wondered about the possibility of such a nail mechanism being tampered with. Sounds a bit dangerous to blindly trust such a mechanism
- xani_ 4y ago
  > You may find it interesting the NHTSA is pushing for breathalizers in cars starting in 2026. Yeah, another idiocy. They aren't reliable and need constant calibration, good luck driving a car full of drunks as designated driver...
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  Lane following isn't the hard part of self driving cars. I wouldn't say it's trivial, but it's a minor detail compared to everything else that also needs to work reliably 99.9999% of the time. Such infrastructure might help make cheaper lane-keep assist as standard options I guess, but at the speeds where it matters for safety, you need significant look-ahead on the trajectory rather than just lateral position error. I suppose you could go crazy and embed some sort of NFC into the road, so that it can communicate the lane geometry. It could probably even be done cleverly, perhaps by embedding multiple nails and encoding curvature in their spacing, or maybe in the orientation of the magnetic flux itself. All that to avoid some front facing cameras and image processing, though, that can also be used to detect other cars and pedestrians.
  - fastball 4y ago
    Do you need everything to work reliably 99.9999% of the time? Is that the reliability rating of human drivers?
    - Retric 4y ago
      Depnds on how you count. If you consider every ~5 seconds you could have an accident, and a minor or worse accident happens once every 2,000 to 20,000 hours of driving that’s 99.99993% to 99.999993% reliability. On the other hand if you start talking per trio then we aren’t even close to that.
      - fastball 4y ago
        Why in the world would you count in 5 second intervals? If the measure is accidents per hour you don't then divide it by 5s. Reliability with 1 accident per 2k hours would be 99.95%. Reliability for 1 accident per 20k hours is 99.995%.
        Retric 4y ago
        Five seconds seems roughly how long it would take for really bad choices to cause an accident. In heavy traffic you can cause an accident by steering into a car in under a second. I am sure someone has had two independent accidents in under a minute. An hour on the other hand is completely arbitrary, why not a day or a minute?
- Animats 4y ago
  Magnetic nails embedded in the road Volvo wanted to do that, in Sweden. They pointed out that it would also be useful for snowplow guidance. That's often done by putting up poles at the side of the road.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    Volvo are just trying to get someone else to provide the infrastructure for self driving. I live in Norway, the poles at the side of the road are not just for the snowploughs, they are very helpful for human beings too. Magnetic nails embedded in the road are not at all useful to humans and are just more stuff to maintain, especially in an environment where simply maintaining centre and edge markings is a difficult and time consuming job.
    - BurningFrog 4y ago
      Roads should provide the infrastructure for driving.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  It's a train. You're inventing trains but much worse and not available to the poor. Just build a train.
  - jlund-molfese 4y ago
    If everyone lives right by the train station that’s fine. What about people in wheelchairs who live in the countryside and prefer to be dropped off at their doorstep? Or someone who can’t drive themself but could use an autonomous car or taxi to go to the hospital in an emergency situation (without waiting a while for the next open train)?
    - dontlaugh 4y ago
      Most people already live near a train, tram or bus station. Or somewhere it would be worth building one anyway. Taxis already exist, just like trains they work fine. Personal cars will likely always exist, but only a small minority absolutely needs one. The bulk of human transportation doesn’t need cars.
      - jlund-molfese 4y ago
        Trains are great. They’re safer, more efficient, and often more convenient than cars. But it’s not either-or. My comment was emphasizing that smart road technologies would be useful to many people also. There are many places where it’s not possible or desirable to build train infrastructure—these are areas that can be served by autonomous vehicles.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > What about people in wheelchairs who live in the countryside and prefer to be dropped off at their doorstep? The important thing is to build a system that works for wide masses - even replacing half of individual car transit by rail and bus works wonders for space consumption [1]. The more complex cases - rural people, mostly - can be dealt with later on, e.g. by providing something like a "phone bus" service. Here in Germany, we're experimenting with on-demand buses [3]: they serve the existing station network, but unlike the usual village buses that run every two hours or worse, you can order them like a taxi and use your existing public transport ticket. Saying "no" by default because a system is not entirely perfect at the beginning is a destructive discussion tactic that only serves those in power. > Or someone who can’t drive themself but could use an autonomous car or taxi to go to the hospital in an emergency situation (without waiting a while for the next open train)? Someone in an emergency situation should just be able to call an ambulance. That's what they exist for. Ideally, someone in an emergency situation should also not have to fear going bankrupt (to the tune that this scenario has become a meme in itself [2]). [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Comparative-efficiency-of-buses-and-cars-in-road-space-use_fig4_336280478 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Comparative-efficiency-o... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/utbn5z/a_man_kept_running_away_from_the_ambulance/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/utbn5z/a_man_k... [3] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/landkreismuenchen/landkreis-muenchen-oepnv-rufbus-sammeltaxi-mvv-1.5675405 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/landkreismuenchen/landk...
- ericmay 4y ago
  People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. If we want to lower drunk driving incidence rates we need people walking to the bar or taking public transit. It requires us to fix our outdated and asinine transit culture. All of the technical solutions in the world can’t solve this problem because they’re solving for the wrong thing (safer cars) when we should be solving for reduction in driving.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    >People drink and drive in America because they have no choice. You can’t walk him from a bar, and even if it’s available nobody is paying $40 for an Uber when they can drive their car. List of choices: 1. Not drink alcohol 2. Drink less alcohol, and switch to water at least 1 hour before driving. 3. Pay for a driver 4. Live where you can walk to an establishment that serves alcohol 5. Rent a hotel room nearby And so on and so forth. Drunk driving is certainly a choice, one made because the perceived or true cost of drunk driving is less than the cost of not driving drunk.
    - piaste 4y ago
      6. Sleep in your car I think it's important to add this one because it's free and doesn't even require previous planning, so it's very hard to argue that you couldn't do it instead of driving drunk. (Although keeping a blanket in your trunk makes it a much better experience.)
      - tacticalturtle 4y ago
        You definitely will run into legal issues depending on the state. Some states like California you can only get a DUI if there’s evidence you moved your car, but in other states it’s a lot less clear - and you can be charged with any appearance of intent to drive, like sleeping in the driver’s seat. Not to mention the possibility of getting a trespassing charge in a private lot overnight.
      - 4y ago
- danaris 4y ago
  Any solution to self-driving cars (that purports to be a universal solution) that requires specific modifications to the roads is doomed to failure. Even leaving aside all the gravel and dirt roads, and the many places where, at any given time, there's construction moving a lane 5 to 15 feet to one side temporarily, do you know how many miles of road there are in the US alone? I sure don't, but I know it's a staggering amount, a hell of a lot of it is rural (and some seasonal), and getting all of it retrofitted with even the most simple and low-tech self-driving guidance assist tech like your magnetic nails would cost vast amounts of money and either take a decade or three or cost about ten times as much.
- wanderingmoose 4y ago
  Caltrans had pilot program in the mid-1990's running self driving cars that used magnets embedded in the road. They would run "caravans" of five-ish vehicles driving almost bumper to bumper. This was tested on the car pool lanes on sections of a highway between los angeles and san diego. This was a partnership between caltrans, the college of engineering at uc berkeley amongst others. Unfortunately I can find any readily available links, but all of the data should be public. I'm only aware of this because I worked w/ some of the technical groups on the project (very tangentially involved). I know the magnets were always considered a problem (cost/effort), but there weren't other options at the time, as computer vision was too computationally expensive at the time.
m463 4y ago
Have you driven a tesla? I think they help with the driving. That said, touchscreen controls (with tiny targets) instead of dedicated controls and the new square steering wheel with touch controls instead of stalks... gah!
wheybags 4y ago
No need for fancy sensors and ai - I used an electric scooter rental in Germany recently, and it made me do a reaction speed test on my phone before starting. Super easy.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  Are they worried you'll kill someone with your electric scooter?
  - exclusiv 4y ago
    It happens as it causes swerves and crashes. Deer do this too. With a deer your best course of action is to try and stop but mow it over if necessary. With a person swerving on a bike or moped, you may not be able to stop in time and most likely swerve.
  - willsmith72 4y ago
    They're worried you'll kill yourself
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      If people can get on an escorted i wonder if they wall or uber. If they walk i could totally see the total number of fatalities being hire than escooting. Similar to how drunken walking has a higher fatality raid than drunken driving/biking.
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    Yes, especially yourself if you aren't wearing a helmet. More commonly, though, the electric scooters cause injuries and accidents. Starting next year, Norway is requiring insurance for them and rental prices will surely increase in response.
  - twobitshifter 4y ago
    It is inexplicable how e scooters are treated like death machines in comparison to 4000 pound SUVs which get no restrictions. Scooters have regulated speed, zones that are banned from use, reaction tests, sidewalk restrictions and on and on. You would think there were thousands of e scooter deaths per year.
JamesBarney 4y ago
If it gets us to autonomy 6 months earlier that could easily save 50x as many lives as deaths it's caused.

Rebelgecko 4y ago

Didn't the infrastructure bill have a clause saying that all cars have to start using alcohol detecting interlocks in a few years?

m463 4y ago

They say in this article: the National Transportation Safety Board conducted an investigation finding that the government should not be actively restricting headlamp systems that have been shown to have a safety benefit. So I can imagine this sort of thinking coming down on telsa's side of the argument. Personally, although tesla does "market" their technology, I think it is good technology that has probably not only saved a fair number of lives, but also bumpers and fenders. Looking at the storied history of the airbag, I think telsa did a good job assisting the driver (and customer) when the status quo for other car manufacturers was to innovate at a snail's pace and implement safety features mostly when required.

silisili 4y ago

Drunk driving is a legal issue. The entire problem is that it's not treated seriously, and super easy to get out of. Yes, even in fatal accidents. If the US really cared, drunk and distracted driving would have appropriate sentencing. For god knows what reason, we're still not there yet.

bobthepanda 4y ago
Some judges have taken the opinion that the infrastructure is so car dependent that you can't have a license revoked lest you lose the entire ability to be a self-sufficient member of society. And in parts of the US, that's true. As a general example, how many nightlife areas have decent public transportation at bar closing to avoid committing a DUI?
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  taxi/cab exist...
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    How many people can afford to pay a cab for every trip they make?
    - ReptileMan 4y ago
      If you can aford to get wasted in a bar, you afford the car ride to take you home
      - silisili 4y ago
        I'm obviously not defending drunk driving, but for many people, remember to double that cost. You either have to take an uber both ways, or get an uber home, then back to your car in the morning. I used to just Uber if I thought I'd be drinking at -all-, but hell that costed me about 60 to 70 bucks which definitely isn't realistic for most young people looking to just have a few beers out.

rswail 4y ago

The problem is not drunk drivers but incapacitated drivers, whether due to alcohol, drugs, lack of sleep, distractions (mobile phones), etc. The fix is not arbitrary alcohol blood levels, or extending the "War on Drugs", but with standardized, enforced, in-vehicle continuous testing that ensures that the driver is awake, responsive, and in control of the vehicle. That is something where R&D in AI/ML/software to analyze and detect incapacity could/should be directed. It can be entirely on/in-vehicle, with access to the data only available to law enforcement (and, perhaps, insurance companies), if and when it is needed to determine liability (not as a general "carte blanche" for the data), in the same way that aircraft black boxes are only analyzed for investigation after an incident.

londons_explore 4y ago
I have a suspicion that most accidents involve the worst 10% of drivers. I'd like to see research into ways to identify those drivers and encourage them to improve their driving skill. For example, one way might be to make a register of driving skill public information, and then insurance companies can jack their prices up for those people unless they go on and pass (government funded) extra training courses. Such a register could simply be an open database of insurance claims, or police crash records showing the names of people involved.
- eesmith 4y ago
  Here's a starting point for you - "Estimating likelihood of future crashes for crash-prone drivers" at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095756415000252 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209575641... . > At-fault crash-prone drivers are usually considered as the high risk group for possible future incidents or crashes. In Louisiana, 34% of crashes are repeatedly committed by the at-fault crash-prone drivers who represent only 5% of the total licensed drivers in the state. ... From the findings, it is recommended that crash-prone drivers should be targeted for special safety programs regularly through education and regulations.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  >Such a register could simply be an open database of insurance claims, or police crash records showing the names of people involved. In the US, these are CLUE and A-PLUS https://risk.lexisnexis.com/products/clue-auto https://risk.lexisnexis.com/products/clue-auto https://www.verisk.com/insurance/products/a-plus-commercial/ https://www.verisk.com/insurance/products/a-plus-commercial/

lozenge 4y ago

What on earth does drunk driving have to do with Tesla's self driving software? You could argue for Waymo, which is actually capable of going without human assistance, not Tesla which is clearly not going to deliver on that.

cypress66 4y ago
That in theory Tesla fsd will be level 4 or 5 in the future.

bmitc 4y ago

> it's clear that human behavior and existing road design is still vastly worse Is that true? Those human statistics take every human car and driver into account, not just Teslas. I have never seen data that shows self-driving cars anywhere close to human driving capability. If we replaced every car on the road with "self-driving" Teslas, it would be mayhem.

fallingknife 4y ago
If we replaced every car, it would be an easy problem. The issue is having to replace one at a time while everyone else on the road is still human.
- spookie 4y ago
  Or... Just make public transportation work? Is this just that difficult to get on the anglosphere or something? I still cannot grasp what people are trying to do with this, really. Why are they trying to do public transports... With cars? You guys do realize most of accidents come from urban/chaotic areas, right? You don't have to use a car to solve this.
  - fallingknife 4y ago
    The percentage of people in the US that live in an area dense enough where even an ideally designed public transport system would match the convenience of a car is in the low single digits. When I go to European cities with these great public transportation systems everybody loves to talk about, what to I see on the road? Lots of cars. Cars aren't going anywhere.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
Most of the "teslas are safer than other cars!" stats are severely biased because: 1)Teslas are "luxury" vehicles, much higher-end than the average US car. A base Model S, or average model 3, costs twice the average US car cost. They are as a result significantly better equipped with safety features and have better crash engineering. In terms of driver assistance, the auto industry was pretty belligerent about backup cameras being mandated, just to give one example. 2)Teslas are on a whole significantly newer than the average US car. The average age of a car on the road in the US is twenty years old. Of course a Tesla with safety features not available until ~10 years ago (or less) is safer than a 1999 anything. If people said "my electric Mercedes is significantly safer than the average car, so Mercedes should be allowed to beta-test their software, which despite after many years of development is proven to randomly slam on the brakes, or drive into the back of emergency vehicles, and is shown on numerous videos to violate traffic laws, suddenly veer at poles and barriers and pedestrians and cyclists" ...they'd be laughed out of the room on a number of points.