3 ms·

> Indeed, as far as I know there isn’t a single HSR route anywhere on Earth that operates profitably on ticketing revenue The key part.

kristopolous 4y ago
What about automobile roads and highways? If there's any, on a mile-per-mile basis, it's probably <0.001%. The actual problem is that we have imposed a profitability imperative on some services and not others.
- sien 4y ago
  Everywhere except the US cars pay far more in petrol tax than roads cost. In Australia, where we have cheap petrol compared to Europe or Japan a little over half of petrol tax goes into roads or public transport. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/fuel-excise-not-being-spent-on-roads-amid-calls-to-cut-tax/100920658 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/fuel-excise-not-being...
  - orwin 4y ago
    Does this tax pays for land value lost to parking requirements and for city roads? Because i know my petrol tax pays for roads in-between cities, I'm not sure it pays for city roads and for respiratory issues caused by cars.
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    >Everywhere except the US cars pay far more in petrol tax than roads cost. US highways subsidize other forms of transportation, too. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33222584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33222584>
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >What about automobile roads and highways? >If there's any, on a mile-per-mile basis, it's probably <0.001%. US highways do pay for themselves <https://web.archive.org/web/20170712175437/www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170712175437/www.rita.dot.gov/...>, and help pay for other modes of transportation. Transit receives the biggest subsidy per passenger-mile, with rail and airlines in between. (For those wishing more detail: From the executive summary <https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/html/executive_summary.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.d...>: >*Highways* >* Users of the highway passenger transportation system paid significantly greater amounts of money to the federal government than their allocated costs in 1994-2000. <https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/html/figure_01.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.d...> This was a result of the increase in the deficit reduction motor fuel tax rates between October 1993 and September 1997, and the increase in Highway Trust Fund fuel tax rates starting in October 1997. >* School and transit buses received positive net federal subsidies over the 1990-2002 period, but autos, motorcycles, pickups and vans, and intercity buses paid more than their allocated cost to the federal government. >* On average, highway users paid $1.91 per thousand passenger-miles to the federal government over their highway allocated cost during 1990-2002.)
patall 4y ago
The key part that misses that pretty much no infrastructure like a motorway or muncipal airport generates a profit on ticketing alone. Ignoring the initial construction cost, many HSR lines were profitable (prepandemic), i.e this private italian train operator: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuovo_Trasporto_Viaggiatori https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuovo_Trasporto_Viaggiatori
cycomanic 4y ago
I agree this is a key part. I would argue no transport network exists without massive subsidies. Simply decouple the infrastructure operation from the operation of trains.

kristopolous 4y ago

What about automobile roads and highways? If there's any, on a mile-per-mile basis, it's probably <0.001%. The actual problem is that we have imposed a profitability imperative on some services and not others.

sien 4y ago
Everywhere except the US cars pay far more in petrol tax than roads cost. In Australia, where we have cheap petrol compared to Europe or Japan a little over half of petrol tax goes into roads or public transport. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/fuel-excise-not-being-spent-on-roads-amid-calls-to-cut-tax/100920658 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/fuel-excise-not-being...
- orwin 4y ago
  Does this tax pays for land value lost to parking requirements and for city roads? Because i know my petrol tax pays for roads in-between cities, I'm not sure it pays for city roads and for respiratory issues caused by cars.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >Everywhere except the US cars pay far more in petrol tax than roads cost. US highways subsidize other forms of transportation, too. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33222584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33222584>
TMWNN 4y ago
>What about automobile roads and highways? >If there's any, on a mile-per-mile basis, it's probably <0.001%. US highways do pay for themselves <https://web.archive.org/web/20170712175437/www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170712175437/www.rita.dot.gov/...>, and help pay for other modes of transportation. Transit receives the biggest subsidy per passenger-mile, with rail and airlines in between. (For those wishing more detail: From the executive summary <https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/html/executive_summary.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.d...>: >*Highways* >* Users of the highway passenger transportation system paid significantly greater amounts of money to the federal government than their allocated costs in 1994-2000. <https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/html/figure_01.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.d...> This was a result of the increase in the deficit reduction motor fuel tax rates between October 1993 and September 1997, and the increase in Highway Trust Fund fuel tax rates starting in October 1997. >* School and transit buses received positive net federal subsidies over the 1990-2002 period, but autos, motorcycles, pickups and vans, and intercity buses paid more than their allocated cost to the federal government. >* On average, highway users paid $1.91 per thousand passenger-miles to the federal government over their highway allocated cost during 1990-2002.)

patall 4y ago

The key part that misses that pretty much no infrastructure like a motorway or muncipal airport generates a profit on ticketing alone. Ignoring the initial construction cost, many HSR lines were profitable (prepandemic), i.e this private italian train operator: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuovo_Trasporto_Viaggiatori https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuovo_Trasporto_Viaggiatori

cycomanic 4y ago

I agree this is a key part. I would argue no transport network exists without massive subsidies. Simply decouple the infrastructure operation from the operation of trains.