5 ms·

Riding the high-speed rail in China made me so envious of that setup. If we had that in certain locations in the U.S., it would be absolutely amazing. You just

by bmitc 4y ago

Riding the high-speed rail in China made me so envious of that setup. If we had that in certain locations in the U.S., it would be absolutely amazing. You just show up a half hour before your train (gotta get there earlier in certain huge stations) and basically walk on. The train ride is buttery smooth with a lot of space, and you can order food from the next station to be delivered to you if you don't want any of the food available directly on the train. And with USD, first class and the even higher end business class is not just attainable but cheap. The equivalent train rides with Amtrak in the U.S. are twice as long and several times as expensive and uncomfortable. Edit: Did some searching and found the North Atlantic Rail initiative. According to the article I read, it would take 20 years to build. What a joke. What is going on in the U.S. that we can't do this stuff? https://secretnyc.co/empire-state-building-lights/ https://secretnyc.co/empire-state-building-lights/ https://northatlanticrail.org/ https://northatlanticrail.org/

bergenty 4y ago
But why do this over just flying. You can show up 30-45 mins before any domestic flight and leave as soon as you land on the other end.
- viraptor 4y ago
  *Usually In practice we've seen hours long security/departure queues, having to wait for the luggage after landing, joining the wait for the expensive taxi/bus transfer from the airport, and many other issues which don't exist for train travel. Then there's "yes you can show up 30min before, if you booked the plane ticket a week ago". Having done both a lot, I'll take the train any time.
- eipie10 4y ago
  Trains can be more frequent and carry a lot more passengers
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  > You can show up 30-45 mins before any domestic flight Where? I was flying in Europe and was asked to be on airport 150 minutes before departure.
  - Leherenn 4y ago
    They ask you to be there early just to be sure, but you don't have to, it's at your own risks. I've done 30 mins at smaller European airports no problems. Online check-in, only carry-on luggage, 10 minutes for security and you board among the lasts with minutes to spare. Of course you don't have a lot of margins if anything goes wrong, but at airports you know it's definitely doable.
    - politelemon 4y ago
      > but you don't have to, it's at your own risks That isn't a scalable or viable solution. The recommendations exist for capacity and planning reasons. By the same logical extension you can simply show up at a train station 5 minutes before the train, the results of taking a chance are on you.
    - cmckn 4y ago
      Miss one flight and you won’t bet on this again; because unlike trains you’ll be waiting 6-12 hours (or longer) for a re-booked flight.
    - matkoniecz 4y ago
      The risk is high, and if it goes wrong you have huge problems.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I would say very rarely would showing up 30-45 minutes before a domestic flight work. Maybe in some airports with pre-check and if you start the clock once you walk into the terminal, but that's just not a realistic time frame. Further, the level comfort of the high-speed rail I rode on in China is not even remotely approached by any plane I have ever been on, and it was several times cheaper. There's also no difference between bringing a big suitcase or a small one versus checking or carrying on bags for a plane. In many cities, the airport is in a terrible location. Boston, Denver, NYC, and many others have poor locations. Train stations, such as those in Boston and NYC, dump you right into the thick of the city. A high-speed rail train would be as fast as a plane's gate to gate time but basically platform to platform. A train is going to be much more efficient on emissions as well. It's a little confusing why anyone would prefer a plane ride over high-speed rail for regional travel.
- egao1980 4y ago
- akvadrako 4y ago
  30 minutes is a very long wait for a train and very short one for a flight. Plus most train terminals are in the center of the city and quicker to get to.
  - llampx 4y ago
    Waiting 30 minutes after dropping off bags, checking in and going through security and walking miles to your gate is the absolute best case scenario in a metropolitan city-sized airport. It is really not comparable to getting to the train station 15-20 minutes before departure, making sure the platform is still the same, and getting a sandwich.
- bigbacaloa 4y ago
  In Spain train stations are centrally located while it adds additional time (in a train usually) to get to the airport in the suburbs. One can arrive at the train a few minutes before departure rather as security is nothing more than a quick scan.
- 9dev 4y ago
  Might have heard the news, by chance, in the last 20 years even? There’s a climate crisis out there that warrants changes?
rendall 4y ago
> What is going on in the U.S. that we can't do this stuff? Strong property rights, NIMBY local democracy with the good and bad that implies, free speech whereby this is all discussed by everyone with an opinion about it whether or not it's uninformed, that kind of thing. Personally, I'd rather have the US style even though it's inefficient when it comes to HSR.
- bmitc 4y ago
  20 years is a long time and basically means it will never happen by that fact alone. The Green Line extension for Boston's MBTA has taken 16 years and still isn't done and has cost several billion dollars. It was discussed even longer than that. New York's subway systems experience the same delays and costs. It's embarrassing. Free speech, land/property rights, etc. are important, but they are just excuses, as they don't seem to be the things actually slowing down these projects.
  - rendall 4y ago
    > Free speech, land/property rights, etc. are important, but they are just excuses, as they don't seem to be the things actually slowing down these projects. Why do you say that? What is slowing them down?
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Utterly broken politics at all levels, plus a ton of corruption.
      - rendall 4y ago
        Could you dive in a bit? What is "broken"? How does the corruption manifest?
        midoridensha 4y ago
        I don't have a link handy but there's been a bunch of articles discussing how corrupt, for instance, the construction industry in NYC is and why this results in construction costs (like for subways) that are many times higher than anyplace else in the world. I don't think I really need to go into detail about how broken US politics are. January 6, 2021 is proof of this.
jsinai 4y ago
> If we had that in certain locations in the U.S., it would be absolutely amazing. You just show up a half hour before your train (gotta get there earlier in certain huge stations) and basically walk on. Security theatre in the US means you don’t just walk on the train. You sit in a waiting room with no ambition for capacity and get escorted to the platform by friendly security guards. Quite an experience if you’re not from the US and used to the way trains normally run in the rest of the world.
- mickdeek86 4y ago
  Amtrak is you just walk on, unless they've changed it since last year. One time the conductor even let me bring a bicycle on against the rules.
- gaadd33 4y ago
  Where did you experience that? At least last month Amtrak from NYC didn't require anything like that, nor does the new station have any sort of waiting area to even facilitate that. I've seen something similar in Madrid, where you have to have your bags xrayed and enter into a sterile area but never in the US.
  - jsinai 4y ago
    West Coast - Seattle to Portland.
Markoff 4y ago
Lived in China and I'm not envious of their HSR at all. Boarding procedures are more complicated and take longer than any European Schengen airport and prices are higher than European budget airlines, let alone for Chinese purchasing power they are insanely expensive. Together with introduction of HSR they closed many slower lines meaning travel is now less available for majority of Chinese. Same goes for their amazing subways, they have lot of lines but usually their population per line is double of Western subways, so the result is uncomfortable overcrowded system. Only reason to use Chinese HSR is because you don't have alternative, there are really no budget airlines and car ownership is still very low compared to west plus cheaper slower trains were cancelled, so you don't really have any other option unless you wanna take dangerous very slow bus.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > Boarding procedures are more complicated and take longer than any European Schengen airport This is not even close to being true. Security in Chinese HSR stations is minimal. You walk through a metal detector, put your bag through a scanner, and that's it. Boarding itself takes a few minutes. > prices are higher than European budget airlines A 7.5-hour trip across the entire length of the country, from Guangzhou to Beijing (over 2100 km, roughly the distance from NYC to Miami, or Rome to Copenhagen), costs the equivalent of $130. It's difficult to complain about that price.
  - Markoff 4y ago
    Yeah sure, or more like, wait in huge queue in front of train station to get to security check, then wait in queue to waiting room, then wait in queue on exit from waiting room to platform, then get checked at train door and finally get checked ticket while seated. Meanwhile at Schengen airport - I get checked my ticket by automated machine, then just go to security check at my boarding gate and then get checked boarding pass and get into plane. All of this without hundreds of people trying to get to same plane since usual capacity is around <200-300 compared to much more in Chinese trains. As I said 130USD is crazy expensive when I can fly in Europe similar routers for 20-50 USD and it will take me 2 hours instead 7.5 hours. There is no difference between getting to Chinese HSR station or European airport, but it's PITA getting to actual Chinese train vs European airplane. And let's rather not compare slow European trains where can I board the train with zero checks anywhere, heck sometimes even without checked ticket.

by bmitc 4y ago

bergenty 4y ago

But why do this over just flying. You can show up 30-45 mins before any domestic flight and leave as soon as you land on the other end.

viraptor 4y ago
*Usually In practice we've seen hours long security/departure queues, having to wait for the luggage after landing, joining the wait for the expensive taxi/bus transfer from the airport, and many other issues which don't exist for train travel. Then there's "yes you can show up 30min before, if you booked the plane ticket a week ago". Having done both a lot, I'll take the train any time.
eipie10 4y ago
Trains can be more frequent and carry a lot more passengers
matkoniecz 4y ago
> You can show up 30-45 mins before any domestic flight Where? I was flying in Europe and was asked to be on airport 150 minutes before departure.
- Leherenn 4y ago
  They ask you to be there early just to be sure, but you don't have to, it's at your own risks. I've done 30 mins at smaller European airports no problems. Online check-in, only carry-on luggage, 10 minutes for security and you board among the lasts with minutes to spare. Of course you don't have a lot of margins if anything goes wrong, but at airports you know it's definitely doable.
  - politelemon 4y ago
    > but you don't have to, it's at your own risks That isn't a scalable or viable solution. The recommendations exist for capacity and planning reasons. By the same logical extension you can simply show up at a train station 5 minutes before the train, the results of taking a chance are on you.
  - cmckn 4y ago
    Miss one flight and you won’t bet on this again; because unlike trains you’ll be waiting 6-12 hours (or longer) for a re-booked flight.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    The risk is high, and if it goes wrong you have huge problems.
bmitc 4y ago
I would say very rarely would showing up 30-45 minutes before a domestic flight work. Maybe in some airports with pre-check and if you start the clock once you walk into the terminal, but that's just not a realistic time frame. Further, the level comfort of the high-speed rail I rode on in China is not even remotely approached by any plane I have ever been on, and it was several times cheaper. There's also no difference between bringing a big suitcase or a small one versus checking or carrying on bags for a plane. In many cities, the airport is in a terrible location. Boston, Denver, NYC, and many others have poor locations. Train stations, such as those in Boston and NYC, dump you right into the thick of the city. A high-speed rail train would be as fast as a plane's gate to gate time but basically platform to platform. A train is going to be much more efficient on emissions as well. It's a little confusing why anyone would prefer a plane ride over high-speed rail for regional travel.
egao1980 4y ago
akvadrako 4y ago
30 minutes is a very long wait for a train and very short one for a flight. Plus most train terminals are in the center of the city and quicker to get to.
- llampx 4y ago
  Waiting 30 minutes after dropping off bags, checking in and going through security and walking miles to your gate is the absolute best case scenario in a metropolitan city-sized airport. It is really not comparable to getting to the train station 15-20 minutes before departure, making sure the platform is still the same, and getting a sandwich.
bigbacaloa 4y ago
In Spain train stations are centrally located while it adds additional time (in a train usually) to get to the airport in the suburbs. One can arrive at the train a few minutes before departure rather as security is nothing more than a quick scan.
9dev 4y ago
Might have heard the news, by chance, in the last 20 years even? There’s a climate crisis out there that warrants changes?

rendall 4y ago

> What is going on in the U.S. that we can't do this stuff? Strong property rights, NIMBY local democracy with the good and bad that implies, free speech whereby this is all discussed by everyone with an opinion about it whether or not it's uninformed, that kind of thing. Personally, I'd rather have the US style even though it's inefficient when it comes to HSR.

bmitc 4y ago
20 years is a long time and basically means it will never happen by that fact alone. The Green Line extension for Boston's MBTA has taken 16 years and still isn't done and has cost several billion dollars. It was discussed even longer than that. New York's subway systems experience the same delays and costs. It's embarrassing. Free speech, land/property rights, etc. are important, but they are just excuses, as they don't seem to be the things actually slowing down these projects.
- rendall 4y ago
  > Free speech, land/property rights, etc. are important, but they are just excuses, as they don't seem to be the things actually slowing down these projects. Why do you say that? What is slowing them down?
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Utterly broken politics at all levels, plus a ton of corruption.
    - rendall 4y ago
      Could you dive in a bit? What is "broken"? How does the corruption manifest?
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        I don't have a link handy but there's been a bunch of articles discussing how corrupt, for instance, the construction industry in NYC is and why this results in construction costs (like for subways) that are many times higher than anyplace else in the world. I don't think I really need to go into detail about how broken US politics are. January 6, 2021 is proof of this.

jsinai 4y ago

> If we had that in certain locations in the U.S., it would be absolutely amazing. You just show up a half hour before your train (gotta get there earlier in certain huge stations) and basically walk on. Security theatre in the US means you don’t just walk on the train. You sit in a waiting room with no ambition for capacity and get escorted to the platform by friendly security guards. Quite an experience if you’re not from the US and used to the way trains normally run in the rest of the world.

mickdeek86 4y ago
Amtrak is you just walk on, unless they've changed it since last year. One time the conductor even let me bring a bicycle on against the rules.
gaadd33 4y ago
Where did you experience that? At least last month Amtrak from NYC didn't require anything like that, nor does the new station have any sort of waiting area to even facilitate that. I've seen something similar in Madrid, where you have to have your bags xrayed and enter into a sterile area but never in the US.
- jsinai 4y ago
  West Coast - Seattle to Portland.

Markoff 4y ago

Lived in China and I'm not envious of their HSR at all. Boarding procedures are more complicated and take longer than any European Schengen airport and prices are higher than European budget airlines, let alone for Chinese purchasing power they are insanely expensive. Together with introduction of HSR they closed many slower lines meaning travel is now less available for majority of Chinese. Same goes for their amazing subways, they have lot of lines but usually their population per line is double of Western subways, so the result is uncomfortable overcrowded system. Only reason to use Chinese HSR is because you don't have alternative, there are really no budget airlines and car ownership is still very low compared to west plus cheaper slower trains were cancelled, so you don't really have any other option unless you wanna take dangerous very slow bus.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> Boarding procedures are more complicated and take longer than any European Schengen airport This is not even close to being true. Security in Chinese HSR stations is minimal. You walk through a metal detector, put your bag through a scanner, and that's it. Boarding itself takes a few minutes. > prices are higher than European budget airlines A 7.5-hour trip across the entire length of the country, from Guangzhou to Beijing (over 2100 km, roughly the distance from NYC to Miami, or Rome to Copenhagen), costs the equivalent of $130. It's difficult to complain about that price.
- Markoff 4y ago
  Yeah sure, or more like, wait in huge queue in front of train station to get to security check, then wait in queue to waiting room, then wait in queue on exit from waiting room to platform, then get checked at train door and finally get checked ticket while seated. Meanwhile at Schengen airport - I get checked my ticket by automated machine, then just go to security check at my boarding gate and then get checked boarding pass and get into plane. All of this without hundreds of people trying to get to same plane since usual capacity is around <200-300 compared to much more in Chinese trains. As I said 130USD is crazy expensive when I can fly in Europe similar routers for 20-50 USD and it will take me 2 hours instead 7.5 hours. There is no difference between getting to Chinese HSR station or European airport, but it's PITA getting to actual Chinese train vs European airplane. And let's rather not compare slow European trains where can I board the train with zero checks anywhere, heck sometimes even without checked ticket.