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A bit of context, the south area which this reactor is suggested to be built in has occasionally a 1000% electricity higher price from the northern regions. A b
by belorn 4y ago
A bit of context, the south area which this reactor is suggested to be built in has occasionally a 1000% electricity higher price from the northern regions. A big reason for this is that prices in the south is highly connected to markets that the south region is connected to, and those region are heavily importers of electricity creating a higher demand than there is available of cheap energy. For example, in order to address this there is a oil power plant operating basically 24/7 and does so very profitably even with high oil prices.
- Gwypaas 4y agoNew export cables will be ready the day these would come online, if the ever come online. Decoupling the SE4 and SE3 regions from the European energy market will never be a sustainable solution due to the possible arbitrage.
- cjblomqvist 4y agoFrom what I understand it's also (mainly?) because the southern areas pricing is very connected to Danish and German markets.
- alkonaut 4y agoMaybe someone should sabotage some energy infrastructure on the Baltic seabed to ensure better prices in Sweden…
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- throwaway473825 4y agoSweden isn't exporting electricity for free. The money is there - it just needs to be redistributed from companies to the people.
- worldsayshi 4y agoOr the very least, be used to build new energy infrastructure and generation.
- kalleboo 4y agoEspecially since the Swedish power company - Vattenfall, is 100% owned by the Swedish state.
- IntelMiner 4y agoI'd say other countries should take note. But privatization of infrastructure assets is a lie that has been sold to millions across the world
- kqr 4y agoVattenfall is not the only Swedish producer. Not even the biggest one!
- cinntaile 4y agoYou mean Svenska Kraftnät (SVK) instead of Vattenfall, they're the ones making money from electricity distribution. Vattenfall is an electricity producer, it's not responsible for this kind of distribution across borders. It is responsible for some distribution within Sweden (regionnät), but there it is not the only player. SVK on the other hand is 100% owned by the state.
- kalleboo 4y agoThat sounds strange, when there's a shortage of power, don't the higher electricity prices go mostly to the energy producers, in order to create incentive to increase production and start up more expensive generation forms?
- cinntaile 4y agoThat's true but the poster you replied to was talking about distribution so I assumed that was what you were talking about as well.
- legulere 4y agoAnd Denmark and Germany in turn are very connected to countries reliant on French nuclear power. Only half of French nuclear power plants are currently running.
- TazeTSchnitzel 4y agoAnother factor affecting the price is that, while there's a lot of hydropower generated in northern Sweden, there's not enough capacity for transferring energy to the south where most consumption is. The investors building industry in the north that can use cheap renewable energy don't seem to mind though. :)
- ncmncm 4y agoThat is, surely, fixable by constructing transmission lines massively cheaper than nukes.
- rags2riches 4y agoTransmission capacity from the northern hydro to the southern nuclear regions has decreased due to the closing of reactors in the south. Power transmission is more complex than just building a fatter pipe to pour more water through. Having stable power in the south is a prerequisite to transfer hydro power from the north.
- brutusborn 4y agoI don't understand, surely the southern grid is stabilized by interconnections to europe? I thought closing reactors would be independent of transmission. What am I missing?
- ncmncm 4y ago
- brutusborn 4y agoI think it's a genuine comment, their others seem to be.
- rongopo 4y agoFact: transmission lines are the bottlenecks of EU energy markets.
- cinntaile 4y ago> For example, in order to address this there is a oil power plant operating basically 24/7 and does so very profitably even with high oil prices. This is not why the oil plant exists, it is an emergency plant. If it is running 24/7 then it does so because the oil plant is profitable. Not out of necessity.
- hnlmorg 4y ago> If it is running 24/7 then it does so because the oil plant is profitable. Not out of necessity. This feels like your splitting hairs because the root cause is ultimately the same: if it wasn’t necessary then it wouldn’t be profitable.
- fyvhbhn 4y agoRoding rain forests is profitable, but not necessary. Logical fallacy
- hnlmorg 4y agoI didn't say "all things that are profitable are necessary" nor that "profitability" and "necessity" were synonyms. What I said was that the root cause of what makes this particular power plant profitable is the same root cause that makes it necessary.
- Gwypaas 4y agoNot really. It is part of the Swedish capacity reserve during winters, i.e. the national grid operator pays it to be in standby to ensure the reliability of the grid. Its current operations are because even though it is an expensive oil plant it is profitable to run it for export on the European market. A Swedish professor in energy systems looked closer at the electricity export compared to the operation of the plant, and out of hundreds of hours operated during this year something like 1-5 hours were not matched by equal or more electricity being exported than it produced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgGy0Vhgt7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgGy0Vhgt7E In Swedish, sadly without subtitles, but an amazing overview of the Swedish electrical system.
- H8crilA 4y agoThank you for the HVDC cable to Poland, 600 MW on the Baltic floor. We appreciate it in "mainland" Europe.
- nickez 4y agoThis is only half the story. What is actually happening is that Sweden is importing expensive electricity from the baltics and exporting it to Germany. So even though the electricity is only in "transit" through Sweden, the prices go up in southern Sweden. Obviously everything is working as designed, but it does feel a bit unfair. To lower the prices in southern Sweden either southern Sweden or northern Germany must increase "plannable" electricity production to avoid expensive imports from the baltics.
- legulere 4y agoGermany also is just a transit country, producing more electricity than consuming. The problem is that half of Frances nuclear power plants aren’t running of which also surrounding countries like Italy are usually reliant on.
- MasterYoda 4y agoThat is not specially accurate. Sweden only import from the Baltic countries plus Polen 20 + 42 GWh but Sweden export to those countries 3229 + 2747 GWh. So the import per year is only 1% of the export. The total export from Swedens to all of its neighboring countries is 23712GWh and the import is only 2957GWh. So Sweden export much much more than it imports. So saying Sweden is just a transit land is not accurate. Why the electricity is expensive is because the electrical grid is connected to northen europe and the expensive prices there makes the prices also goes up in Sweden because it is the same market. https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/energi/tillforsel-och-anvandning-av-energi/manatlig-elstatistik-och-byten-av-elleverantor/pong/tabell-och-diagram/import-och-export-av-el-2022/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/ener...
- vladvasiliu 4y agoWouldn't this be affected by the EU principle of paying energy at the highest cost of production? [0] Unless the power plant would be able to flood the rest of the EU grid with cheap power to the point that the more expensive plants would be turned off, how would this prevent the price going up? --- [0] https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/08/09/watch-heres-how-the-price-of-electricity-is-set-in-the-eu https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/08/09/watch-heres-ho...
- belorn 4y agoIn the south of Sweden there is a general shortage of energy to the point where reserve energy operators have to jump in to supply energy. Those are basically the most expensive energy production you can have. In addition there is a speculative market so available energy production can be bought at one price point and then sold at a higher, making the speculative provider a even higher "cost of production". If however there is a energy surplus in a region then two things happens. Reserve operators don't need to be used, and the speculative market risk holding energy that they can't sell, thus forcing lower prices.