8 ms·

Firefox on Ubuntu (which I'm not using anymore for these and other reasons) and presumably on other OSs does exactly that: refuse to open new tabs/sites once ev

Firefox on Ubuntu (which I'm not using anymore for these and other reasons) and presumably on other OSs does exactly that: refuse to open new tabs/sites once every two weeks or so, telling me "one more thing we need to do" ie self-update. So you're loosing all your browsing context, though FF does a better job restoring it after restart than it used to, but still that's user-hostile and self-important as fuck. And there's also a "principal" reason why I can't stand this: that the Web is now 30 years old, past its peak, so if browsers still need to update bi-weekly for new features and experiments, this in combination with lack of browser diversity proves without any shade of doubt there's something very wrong with the incentives for browser development, the Google/Mozilla browser cartel, and the evolution of "web standards".

jakub_g 4y ago
Go to Firefox settings and disable auto-update? `about:config` > `app.update.auto: false`
- hulitu 4y ago
  And after some time it will not render pages. Modern SW is such a mess.
  - TuringTest 4y ago
    You may still update manually.
    - hulitu 4y ago
      Yes, when you have an up to date system. Else the gates of hell will open when you try to compile the thing.
- kevincox 4y ago
  Firefox's built-in auto-update doesn't have this problem. It only happens when an external package manager swaps out its files. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33201971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33201971 for a bit more context.
- johannes1234321 4y ago
  What does then happen? Do I get some nudge to update? I for one don't really mind the Autoupdate. I can't stand it that it forces me to restart while I am in some workflow. I'd be fine with "you should update, click here, when ready" which I can click five minutes later when done with the task.
- b215826 4y ago
  This doesn't work. The only way to disable autoupdates on Firefox is to install a policy file: https://github.com/mozilla/policy-templates https://github.com/mozilla/policy-templates https://linuxreviews.org/HOWTO_Make_Mozilla_Firefox_Stop_Nagging_You_About_Updates_And_Other_Annoying_Idiocy https://linuxreviews.org/HOWTO_Make_Mozilla_Firefox_Stop_Nag...
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    Wow, this actually DOES appear to shut down autoupdating. Thanks!
badsectoracula 4y ago
Yeah that is annoying, though personally i find browsers as the one category of software where i think this is fine, mainly because of security updates (it sucks that they tend to come with UI updates but at least on Firefox so far the main UI is fairly customizable and have made my own) but also because they are online software anyway.
- tannhaeuser 4y ago
  Does a browser really have to be so complex that it warrants updates more often than the very sites that are being browsed? Contrast this with the design of idk MP3: a relatively simple and ultra-stable decoder app with a large variety of backend pipelines that can create MP3s. That's how the web pre-JS, pre-CSS was like. Or, with a perspective from information theory: downloading hundreds and hundreds of megabytes again and again (browsers), then consuming insane amounts of energy to access information that hasn't really changed all that much isn't very effective, is it?
  - chriswarbo 4y ago
    Firefox, Chrome, etc. are also huge monoliths: that requires downloading the whole thing when any of the components change.
  - GTP 4y ago
    >Does a browser really have to be so complex that it warrants updates more often than the very sites that are being browsed? Contrast this with the design of idk MP3: a relatively simple and ultra-stable decoder app with a large variety of backend pipelines that can create MP3s. The problem is the recent trend that everything has to be a web application. So browsers aren't just to access information anymore, but literally to do everything else too. I personally don't agree with the web application trend, but this is the reason why a browser is so much more complex compared to an MP3 decoder: the decoder has to do a single thing, the browsers have to do more and more things.
    - dkga 4y ago
      Not to mention all the security patches
weberer 4y ago
This is infuriating to me as well. And the stupid Firefox restart dinosaur always comes up at the worst possible time. I would have switched to a new browser years ago, but Firefox seems to be the only one that supports vertical tabs.
- jimpudar 4y ago
  Edge has vertical tabs built in. Many other browsers can be made to have vertical tabs with plugins.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Given that the issue of Firefox being forced to restart primarily happens on Linux, I doubt Edge is an option for them. Though I have to concur that Edge has one of the most stable and smooth vertical tab implementations around, most of the plugin-based ones are more fully featured but much less reliable.
    - tmtvl 4y ago
      Edge has been released for Linux a while now... not that I know anyone who uses it, but it's available for those who need it.
      - tracker1 4y ago
        I use it, and it's decent. And more in the vein of "it's not google" though I do slightly prefer the chrome dev tools to the modifications that Edge has made. I don't like a lot of the "helpers" for shopping though. And definitely don't like the article wall with ads that are really hard to block/script out.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    Edge is not free. I wouldn't seriously consider using a non-free application for something as essential as everyday web browsing. You can't really have usable vertical tabs in Chromium via plugins either, unless you're content with wasting a lot of horizontal space for an ugly sidebar and vertical space for uselessly duplicated tab bar. Firefox is the only actual choice I'm aware about.
zinekeller 4y ago
> and presumably on other OSs Nope, it only happens when something outside changed Firefox's files (in this case when Ubuntu swapped files because dpkg updated Firefox). This never happens* in Windows and macOS (it might nag, but you can definitely dismiss it). It seems that johnchristopher has a suggestion to disable auto-updates on a specific application in Debian and Ubuntu (haven't tested it though): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33202052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33202052 * At least using their official installers. I'm specifically excluding using Chocolatey/brew/other loose-file update mechanism or your bonkers enterprise solution insists on using loose files and not rely on *.msi/*.app/*.pkg.
- kevincox 4y ago
  This is exactly right. And this happens because it needs to load libraries or exec subprocesses that aren't compatible between versions. Since the matching version of the file has been replaced with a newer one it doesn't really have a choice, it is unable to launch the new tab. The nice message is a better alternative than crashing. This also doesn't occur on NixOS because the new version is in a different direcotry and the old version is kept until it is garbage collected.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    > This also doesn't occur on NixOS because the new version is in a different direcotry and the old version is kept until it is garbage collected. Also with flatpak; you are using the old version until you close it. Then it will be garbage collected. On the next launch, you will be running a new version from different root.
  - account42 4y ago
    This is 100% something that can be fixed by the browser. Package updates don't change existing files but rather create new files and update the filesystem to point to them. All it takes to not need a restart is to keep file handles open for all needed resources and forking from such a process instead of exec()ing new ones. Not entirely trivial for applications as monstrously complex as browsers but hardly comparable to other challenges they need to solve. It's only because they can control the update process on the OS they care about (Windows) that they don't bother.
johnchristopher 4y ago
On Ubuntu/Debian, a work-around is to put Firefox on hold: sudo apt-mark hold <package-name> Will not work with snap though.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  I just download it from Mozilla and install on my home dir. This solves both the issues of Debian not updating Firefox fast enough and of them updating it too fast.
forgotmypw17 4y ago
Gosh, that is frustrating to even read about. The first time it happened, I would get rid of whatever software was involved in causing it and never use it again, except for testing purposes. I completely agree with you about everything else too. The Web is mature enough that I can use a well-tested website with a 20-year-old browser. There is no technical reason to not have a minimum-viable web browser with a smaller attack surface that doesn't need upgrades for months or even years. And, in fact, such browsers exist, and I can browse most of the Web that I need with them. I just have to ignore the shitty mainstream, which I am more than happy to do.
- ted_bunny 4y ago
  Care to namedrop your favorites?
  - forgotmypw17 4y ago
    If you're into keyboard-driven, then: qutebrowser luakit If you're into more traditional, then there are these Firefox-based forks: LibreWolf Waterfox Waterfox Classic PaleMoon I'm also a fan of Camino on Mac, but that's mostly HTTP-only at this point.
  - forgotmypw17 4y ago
    Just to add these browsers which are VERY fast and performant, at the expense of being less compatible with some more overbuilt sites: Links (GUI) Links (console) Lynx (console) w3m (console, especially if you like vim bindings)
- Tagbert 4y ago
  As someone else pointed out above. This is not due to Firefox per se but due to the OS changing dependent packages. I understand if you install Firefox directly from their website rather than through the system package installed you won’t have that behavior. It does not happen on other OSs.
mellavora 4y ago
Firefox on Mac. I have this problem as well, even with "autoupdate" set to true. Also, if I am browsing in the middle of an auto update, it refuses to open new tabs. And each update logs me out of my password manager Worse, now this is happening to Thunderbird. Wasn't an issue until about a month ago. Now I need to re-install Thunderbird every few weeks because they've pushed an update. When from my point of view, as a user, I haven't seen a new feature which I truly wanted in over 5 years, maybe more like 10.
- tannhaeuser 4y ago
  That sounds truly horrible. I've only recently returned to Mac OS as primary OS (one reason being annoyed by Ubuntu and FF) but why aren't you using Safari and Mail.app then if I may ask?
- Tagbert 4y ago
  I use FF on Mac OS and have never seen it refuse to operate due to an update. It will sometimes popup a dialog letting me know there is an update but I can dismiss it. I tend to check for updates every couple of weeks, anyway. The update process is mostly painless though it does restart the browser. That is probably a good thing anyway. Most updates I get when I do update the browser for other reasons and it installs and update as it is restarting.
lupire 4y ago
Why do you believe software has peaked and has nothing new to potentially offer?
bobbob1921 4y ago
This reminds me of iOS apps that as soon as you open them require an update to the latest version and won’t let you proceed any further (in the app) until you click OK/do the update. I always make it a point to go leave a one star review (or update my existing review to one star), and point this out as the reason
cercatrova 4y ago
> the Web is now 30 years old, past its peak, so if browsers still need to update bi-weekly for new features and experiments, this in combination with lack of browser diversity proves without any shade of doubt there's something very wrong with the incentives for browser development, the Google/Mozilla browser cartel, and the evolution of "web standards". Or maybe new features are still coming out in the W3C specs and need to be implemented. Did you know CSS now has a parent selector, or that JS will be getting functional piping soon?
- tracker1 4y ago
  On functional piping, this has been in the pipeline with a few competing proposals for a while (I prefer the F#-like version myself). Will be surprised if/when it actually makes it in.
jasonlotito 4y ago
That this complaint is pointing at Firefox when it's not Firefox at all, is interesting. How many things do we associate with one thing when it's actually something else entirely. It's a shame, really.

jakub_g 4y ago

Go to Firefox settings and disable auto-update? `about:config` > `app.update.auto: false`

hulitu 4y ago
And after some time it will not render pages. Modern SW is such a mess.
- TuringTest 4y ago
  You may still update manually.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    Yes, when you have an up to date system. Else the gates of hell will open when you try to compile the thing.
kevincox 4y ago
Firefox's built-in auto-update doesn't have this problem. It only happens when an external package manager swaps out its files. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33201971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33201971 for a bit more context.
johannes1234321 4y ago
What does then happen? Do I get some nudge to update? I for one don't really mind the Autoupdate. I can't stand it that it forces me to restart while I am in some workflow. I'd be fine with "you should update, click here, when ready" which I can click five minutes later when done with the task.
b215826 4y ago
This doesn't work. The only way to disable autoupdates on Firefox is to install a policy file: https://github.com/mozilla/policy-templates https://github.com/mozilla/policy-templates https://linuxreviews.org/HOWTO_Make_Mozilla_Firefox_Stop_Nagging_You_About_Updates_And_Other_Annoying_Idiocy https://linuxreviews.org/HOWTO_Make_Mozilla_Firefox_Stop_Nag...
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  Wow, this actually DOES appear to shut down autoupdating. Thanks!

badsectoracula 4y ago

Yeah that is annoying, though personally i find browsers as the one category of software where i think this is fine, mainly because of security updates (it sucks that they tend to come with UI updates but at least on Firefox so far the main UI is fairly customizable and have made my own) but also because they are online software anyway.

tannhaeuser 4y ago
Does a browser really have to be so complex that it warrants updates more often than the very sites that are being browsed? Contrast this with the design of idk MP3: a relatively simple and ultra-stable decoder app with a large variety of backend pipelines that can create MP3s. That's how the web pre-JS, pre-CSS was like. Or, with a perspective from information theory: downloading hundreds and hundreds of megabytes again and again (browsers), then consuming insane amounts of energy to access information that hasn't really changed all that much isn't very effective, is it?
- chriswarbo 4y ago
  Firefox, Chrome, etc. are also huge monoliths: that requires downloading the whole thing when any of the components change.
- GTP 4y ago
  >Does a browser really have to be so complex that it warrants updates more often than the very sites that are being browsed? Contrast this with the design of idk MP3: a relatively simple and ultra-stable decoder app with a large variety of backend pipelines that can create MP3s. The problem is the recent trend that everything has to be a web application. So browsers aren't just to access information anymore, but literally to do everything else too. I personally don't agree with the web application trend, but this is the reason why a browser is so much more complex compared to an MP3 decoder: the decoder has to do a single thing, the browsers have to do more and more things.
  - dkga 4y ago
    Not to mention all the security patches

weberer 4y ago

This is infuriating to me as well. And the stupid Firefox restart dinosaur always comes up at the worst possible time. I would have switched to a new browser years ago, but Firefox seems to be the only one that supports vertical tabs.

jimpudar 4y ago
Edge has vertical tabs built in. Many other browsers can be made to have vertical tabs with plugins.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Given that the issue of Firefox being forced to restart primarily happens on Linux, I doubt Edge is an option for them. Though I have to concur that Edge has one of the most stable and smooth vertical tab implementations around, most of the plugin-based ones are more fully featured but much less reliable.
  - tmtvl 4y ago
    Edge has been released for Linux a while now... not that I know anyone who uses it, but it's available for those who need it.
    - tracker1 4y ago
      I use it, and it's decent. And more in the vein of "it's not google" though I do slightly prefer the chrome dev tools to the modifications that Edge has made. I don't like a lot of the "helpers" for shopping though. And definitely don't like the article wall with ads that are really hard to block/script out.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  Edge is not free. I wouldn't seriously consider using a non-free application for something as essential as everyday web browsing. You can't really have usable vertical tabs in Chromium via plugins either, unless you're content with wasting a lot of horizontal space for an ugly sidebar and vertical space for uselessly duplicated tab bar. Firefox is the only actual choice I'm aware about.

zinekeller 4y ago

> and presumably on other OSs Nope, it only happens when something outside changed Firefox's files (in this case when Ubuntu swapped files because dpkg updated Firefox). This never happens* in Windows and macOS (it might nag, but you can definitely dismiss it). It seems that johnchristopher has a suggestion to disable auto-updates on a specific application in Debian and Ubuntu (haven't tested it though): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33202052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33202052 * At least using their official installers. I'm specifically excluding using Chocolatey/brew/other loose-file update mechanism or your bonkers enterprise solution insists on using loose files and not rely on *.msi/*.app/*.pkg.

kevincox 4y ago
This is exactly right. And this happens because it needs to load libraries or exec subprocesses that aren't compatible between versions. Since the matching version of the file has been replaced with a newer one it doesn't really have a choice, it is unable to launch the new tab. The nice message is a better alternative than crashing. This also doesn't occur on NixOS because the new version is in a different direcotry and the old version is kept until it is garbage collected.
- vetinari 4y ago
  > This also doesn't occur on NixOS because the new version is in a different direcotry and the old version is kept until it is garbage collected. Also with flatpak; you are using the old version until you close it. Then it will be garbage collected. On the next launch, you will be running a new version from different root.
- account42 4y ago
  This is 100% something that can be fixed by the browser. Package updates don't change existing files but rather create new files and update the filesystem to point to them. All it takes to not need a restart is to keep file handles open for all needed resources and forking from such a process instead of exec()ing new ones. Not entirely trivial for applications as monstrously complex as browsers but hardly comparable to other challenges they need to solve. It's only because they can control the update process on the OS they care about (Windows) that they don't bother.

johnchristopher 4y ago

On Ubuntu/Debian, a work-around is to put Firefox on hold: sudo apt-mark hold <package-name> Will not work with snap though.

marcosdumay 4y ago
I just download it from Mozilla and install on my home dir. This solves both the issues of Debian not updating Firefox fast enough and of them updating it too fast.

forgotmypw17 4y ago

Gosh, that is frustrating to even read about. The first time it happened, I would get rid of whatever software was involved in causing it and never use it again, except for testing purposes. I completely agree with you about everything else too. The Web is mature enough that I can use a well-tested website with a 20-year-old browser. There is no technical reason to not have a minimum-viable web browser with a smaller attack surface that doesn't need upgrades for months or even years. And, in fact, such browsers exist, and I can browse most of the Web that I need with them. I just have to ignore the shitty mainstream, which I am more than happy to do.

ted_bunny 4y ago
Care to namedrop your favorites?
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  If you're into keyboard-driven, then: qutebrowser luakit If you're into more traditional, then there are these Firefox-based forks: LibreWolf Waterfox Waterfox Classic PaleMoon I'm also a fan of Camino on Mac, but that's mostly HTTP-only at this point.
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  Just to add these browsers which are VERY fast and performant, at the expense of being less compatible with some more overbuilt sites: Links (GUI) Links (console) Lynx (console) w3m (console, especially if you like vim bindings)
Tagbert 4y ago
As someone else pointed out above. This is not due to Firefox per se but due to the OS changing dependent packages. I understand if you install Firefox directly from their website rather than through the system package installed you won’t have that behavior. It does not happen on other OSs.

mellavora 4y ago

Firefox on Mac. I have this problem as well, even with "autoupdate" set to true. Also, if I am browsing in the middle of an auto update, it refuses to open new tabs. And each update logs me out of my password manager Worse, now this is happening to Thunderbird. Wasn't an issue until about a month ago. Now I need to re-install Thunderbird every few weeks because they've pushed an update. When from my point of view, as a user, I haven't seen a new feature which I truly wanted in over 5 years, maybe more like 10.

tannhaeuser 4y ago
That sounds truly horrible. I've only recently returned to Mac OS as primary OS (one reason being annoyed by Ubuntu and FF) but why aren't you using Safari and Mail.app then if I may ask?
Tagbert 4y ago
I use FF on Mac OS and have never seen it refuse to operate due to an update. It will sometimes popup a dialog letting me know there is an update but I can dismiss it. I tend to check for updates every couple of weeks, anyway. The update process is mostly painless though it does restart the browser. That is probably a good thing anyway. Most updates I get when I do update the browser for other reasons and it installs and update as it is restarting.

lupire 4y ago

Why do you believe software has peaked and has nothing new to potentially offer?

bobbob1921 4y ago

This reminds me of iOS apps that as soon as you open them require an update to the latest version and won’t let you proceed any further (in the app) until you click OK/do the update. I always make it a point to go leave a one star review (or update my existing review to one star), and point this out as the reason

cercatrova 4y ago

> the Web is now 30 years old, past its peak, so if browsers still need to update bi-weekly for new features and experiments, this in combination with lack of browser diversity proves without any shade of doubt there's something very wrong with the incentives for browser development, the Google/Mozilla browser cartel, and the evolution of "web standards". Or maybe new features are still coming out in the W3C specs and need to be implemented. Did you know CSS now has a parent selector, or that JS will be getting functional piping soon?

tracker1 4y ago
On functional piping, this has been in the pipeline with a few competing proposals for a while (I prefer the F#-like version myself). Will be surprised if/when it actually makes it in.

jasonlotito 4y ago

That this complaint is pointing at Firefox when it's not Firefox at all, is interesting. How many things do we associate with one thing when it's actually something else entirely. It's a shame, really.