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> Letting someone go right before they vest will likely create distrust on the rest of the team. I kind of doubt it'll even occur to the rest of the team, but

> Letting someone go right before they vest will likely create distrust on the rest of the team. I kind of doubt it'll even occur to the rest of the team, but even if it did I can't imagine that they wouldn't feel it's justifiable given this employee has been such a consistent issue. IMO the time to fire someone is as soon as you've decided you're going to fire them. That said, offering nice severance perks is a nice thing to do.

socialismisok 4y ago
It will absolutely come up. And people will remember it. It will absolutely be perceived as "cheap ass founder didn't want to pay worker for their time."
- 8note 4y ago
  And effectively they didn't, if that vest is a good portion of the pay
- knorker 4y ago
  However paying them will be remembered too. It will be perceived as "why are you giving away profitability of the company (and thus my equity and/or end of year bonus) to someone you should have fired a long time ago?".
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    The answer to that is “they worked 50 out of the 52 weeks; it was a leadership mistake earlier to not hold everyone to the high bar we expect, but we still act ethically towards all of our stakeholders, even when doing so is inconvenient.”
    - knorker 4y ago
      Yeah, sounds best. I'd still run it past the lawyers to make sure it's fine to "badmouth" a former employee in your jurisdiction. It means taking ownership of the mistake, even if it does mean that you're effectively apologizing for devaluing the company to the other stockholders and other stakeholders. Still, there's a little bit of "oh, so when I leave I can expect management to talk shit about my performance", which wouldn't do wonders for my impostor syndrome.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
setr 4y ago
The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. And anyone remotely suspicious of your good will should be mighty suspicious that anything you’ve said was just justification to deny compensation — when is my vesting date again..?
- staticassertion 4y ago
  > The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. You can and should address this. It would be insane to fire someone and not explain why.
  - foldr 4y ago
    Really? I think it’s generally considered bad business etiquette to publicly speak about why someone was fired, beyond something very generic such as “performance-related reasons”. Once someone has left the company there is very little point in making critical comments about them, as it’s too late to change anything.
    - staticassertion 4y ago
      I wouldn't explain why in detail/ be critical, but I would have a meeting to address what happened. Having been in this position when someone gets fired people get nervous - they ask "are we doing OK on money?" and things like that, which you can address.
    - ido 4y ago
      Yes but it gives the remaining people a mark on what is acceptable or not acceptable. If you fired someone for bad performance they now know that bad performance will not be tolerated (or at least not forever). If you fired them for being unprofessional or for bad behaviour the rest now know that there is a consequence for such behaviour.
      - foldr 4y ago
freeqaz 4y ago
I am in the camp of: Fire people before they break the morale on the team. Nothing burns a team out faster than a bad colleague.
- justtocomment 4y ago
  > Nothing burns a team out faster than a bad colleague. Ever had a bad boss?
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    I've had both: a bad colleague who went dancing while we were struggling at 23 PM in the data center for a government project, and a really shitty PM whose incompetence ruined a lot of people personally. Both can have adverse effects on people, although a bad boss in an otherwise sane environment would probably strengthen the group for being perceived as an external "enemy".
    - confidantlake 4y ago
      That has not been my experience with a bad boss. They do things like play favorites and create a culture where people are competing rather than cooperating. Even if they are just shitty to everyone equally I find it far easier to deal with a bad colleague than a bad boss.
    - abeyer 4y ago
      > a bad colleague who went dancing while we were struggling at 23 PM in the data center If that's your definition of a "bad colleague" I would be a little concerned. There are situations where it may be necessary to do that struggle, but in my experience there are far fewer than you think, and people often fall into a trap of competing to be the last one standing rather than actually doing good work. If you're struggling in a data center at 2300 you may well be doing more harm than good and going home to sleep (or dance, or whatever you need to refresh yourself and come back focused...) is often a better choice.
- Scarblac 4y ago
zo1 4y ago
It could go the other way too. Employee coasted, did bad work and still gets a generous payout at the end? The team could very well be bitter about it, especially considering that it's such a small company and they certainly "know" about this employee's issues. They might figure it out by reading this AskHN too. Rather pick what you think is fair based on circumstance and let the team know your reasoning. It's your company after all, show leadership and set the standard that you want based on your values. Edit. The "you" here is directed at the ask hn poster, not the person I'm replying to.
- Arn_Thor 4y ago
  The employee spent the time at the firm that it took for the vest to happen. That time is mostly already served. Yanking the promised reward like that does not send a good signal to the rest of the staff. If the employee was so bad they should have fired them long ago, for the sake of the rest of the team if that was a concern. But a month ahead of the vesting? That is a shitty move. In this scenario, the eventual firing is sufficient signal to the rest of the team that the person was not living up to their paycheck.
- HelloNurse 4y ago
  Being fired is not a "generous payout"; colleagues will hopefully remember that the company got rid of an underperformer, without being bitter about their stock. The parable of the workers in the vineyard comes to mind. On the other hand, a boss screwing an employee over stock, for any reason, would set a terrible precedent of greed and untrustworthiness.
knorker 4y ago
> IMO the time to fire someone is as soon as you've decided you're going to fire them. Life tip: This also goes for relationships. Don't wait until after xmas, their birthday, whatever…

socialismisok 4y ago

It will absolutely come up. And people will remember it. It will absolutely be perceived as "cheap ass founder didn't want to pay worker for their time."

8note 4y ago
And effectively they didn't, if that vest is a good portion of the pay
knorker 4y ago
However paying them will be remembered too. It will be perceived as "why are you giving away profitability of the company (and thus my equity and/or end of year bonus) to someone you should have fired a long time ago?".
- sokoloff 4y ago
  The answer to that is “they worked 50 out of the 52 weeks; it was a leadership mistake earlier to not hold everyone to the high bar we expect, but we still act ethically towards all of our stakeholders, even when doing so is inconvenient.”
  - knorker 4y ago
    Yeah, sounds best. I'd still run it past the lawyers to make sure it's fine to "badmouth" a former employee in your jurisdiction. It means taking ownership of the mistake, even if it does mean that you're effectively apologizing for devaluing the company to the other stockholders and other stakeholders. Still, there's a little bit of "oh, so when I leave I can expect management to talk shit about my performance", which wouldn't do wonders for my impostor syndrome.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

setr 4y ago

The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. And anyone remotely suspicious of your good will should be mighty suspicious that anything you’ve said was just justification to deny compensation — when is my vesting date again..?

staticassertion 4y ago
> The problem is the onlookers don’t know why you’ve fired someone; they’re free to assume whatever they want. You can and should address this. It would be insane to fire someone and not explain why.
- foldr 4y ago
  Really? I think it’s generally considered bad business etiquette to publicly speak about why someone was fired, beyond something very generic such as “performance-related reasons”. Once someone has left the company there is very little point in making critical comments about them, as it’s too late to change anything.
  - staticassertion 4y ago
    I wouldn't explain why in detail/ be critical, but I would have a meeting to address what happened. Having been in this position when someone gets fired people get nervous - they ask "are we doing OK on money?" and things like that, which you can address.
  - ido 4y ago
    Yes but it gives the remaining people a mark on what is acceptable or not acceptable. If you fired someone for bad performance they now know that bad performance will not be tolerated (or at least not forever). If you fired them for being unprofessional or for bad behaviour the rest now know that there is a consequence for such behaviour.
    - foldr 4y ago

freeqaz 4y ago

I am in the camp of: Fire people before they break the morale on the team. Nothing burns a team out faster than a bad colleague.

justtocomment 4y ago
> Nothing burns a team out faster than a bad colleague. Ever had a bad boss?
- squarefoot 4y ago
  I've had both: a bad colleague who went dancing while we were struggling at 23 PM in the data center for a government project, and a really shitty PM whose incompetence ruined a lot of people personally. Both can have adverse effects on people, although a bad boss in an otherwise sane environment would probably strengthen the group for being perceived as an external "enemy".
  - confidantlake 4y ago
    That has not been my experience with a bad boss. They do things like play favorites and create a culture where people are competing rather than cooperating. Even if they are just shitty to everyone equally I find it far easier to deal with a bad colleague than a bad boss.
  - abeyer 4y ago
    > a bad colleague who went dancing while we were struggling at 23 PM in the data center If that's your definition of a "bad colleague" I would be a little concerned. There are situations where it may be necessary to do that struggle, but in my experience there are far fewer than you think, and people often fall into a trap of competing to be the last one standing rather than actually doing good work. If you're struggling in a data center at 2300 you may well be doing more harm than good and going home to sleep (or dance, or whatever you need to refresh yourself and come back focused...) is often a better choice.
Scarblac 4y ago

zo1 4y ago

It could go the other way too. Employee coasted, did bad work and still gets a generous payout at the end? The team could very well be bitter about it, especially considering that it's such a small company and they certainly "know" about this employee's issues. They might figure it out by reading this AskHN too. Rather pick what you think is fair based on circumstance and let the team know your reasoning. It's your company after all, show leadership and set the standard that you want based on your values. Edit. The "you" here is directed at the ask hn poster, not the person I'm replying to.

Arn_Thor 4y ago
The employee spent the time at the firm that it took for the vest to happen. That time is mostly already served. Yanking the promised reward like that does not send a good signal to the rest of the staff. If the employee was so bad they should have fired them long ago, for the sake of the rest of the team if that was a concern. But a month ahead of the vesting? That is a shitty move. In this scenario, the eventual firing is sufficient signal to the rest of the team that the person was not living up to their paycheck.
HelloNurse 4y ago
Being fired is not a "generous payout"; colleagues will hopefully remember that the company got rid of an underperformer, without being bitter about their stock. The parable of the workers in the vineyard comes to mind. On the other hand, a boss screwing an employee over stock, for any reason, would set a terrible precedent of greed and untrustworthiness.

knorker 4y ago

> IMO the time to fire someone is as soon as you've decided you're going to fire them. Life tip: This also goes for relationships. Don't wait until after xmas, their birthday, whatever…