4 ms·

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Apple is willing to provide these Employee Perks to everyone, but the Union will still insist on getting someth

by Alupis 4y ago

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Apple is willing to provide these Employee Perks to everyone, but the Union will still insist on getting something out of their collective bargaining agreement. Therefore this just became the something. It's that simple. Unions are not always automatically a good thing folks. For every good union story out there, there are an equal amount of bad union stories. As a union member, you give up your rights to negotiate things directly with your employer, which include receiving new perks. Now your union has to do the negotiating, and you better hope they get what you want out of it.

threeseed 4y ago
> For every good union story out there, there are an equal amount of bad union stories Do you have empirical evidence for this claim ? Because when you look back over time many fundamental workers rights came from union involvement.
- ejb999 4y ago
  >>Do you have empirical evidence for this claim ? Do you have empirical evidence that this is not true?
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    Yes, they just presented that evidence to you: > Because when you look back over time many fundamental workers rights came from union involvement.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      I don't think we're in any danger now, in 2022 of returning to 18 hour work days and acceptable workplace deaths. Yes, unions helped usher in a new age of employee rights, and we are all thankful for them. However, in the absence of anything real to fight for, unions in the modern day have increasingly become more of a nuisance than a necessity - for both the employee and employer side.
      - threeseed 4y ago
        > in 2022 of returning to 18 hour work days and acceptable workplace deaths This is exactly what is happening in the gig economy. Workers that are not classified as workers and have no representation being taken advantage of by companies like Uber etc.
        Alupis 4y ago
        This is a crazy take on a volunteer, intended-to-be-part-time-side-hussle-money "gigs". The "Gig Economy" is a fable for the most part. Some small minority of people have made it a full time job, sure, but that is not the norm, not even close. No one is being taken advantage of by Uber, etc. You choose to accept a trip or not... it's that simple.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        > The "Gig Economy" is a fable for the most part. Some small minority of people have made it a full time job, sure, but that is not the norm, not even close. This is a fallacy. It doesn't matter if it were the norm or not. If it can happen at all, the original claim stands. On top of that, it can expand and in fact is. > No one is being taken advantage of by Uber, etc. You choose to accept a trip or not... it's that simple. This argument is completely invalid. Any worker can choose to accept a job or not; therefore no worker can ever be taken advantage of? Absurd.
      - yoasif_ 4y ago
        > I don't think we're in any danger now, in 2022 of returning to 18 hour work days and acceptable workplace deaths. Really? Workplace deaths seem absolutely acceptable, as far as I can tell: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/23/in-a-case-of-a-truckers-life-vs-his-cargo-judge-neil-gorsuch-ruled-for-the-cargo/ https://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/23/in-a-case-of-a-trucker...
dontlaugh 4y ago
That’s not true. Unions negotiate minimums, using collective power to balance the employer’s power over employees. Individual employees are free to negotiate individually beyond that. Many do just that, but of course it’s less likely to succeed since individuals don’t have the ability to threaten industrial action.
- Alupis 4y ago
  Given that the union will insist on gaining something during collective bargaining negotiations - completely regardless of whatever personal concessions an employer has made during the fiscal year - an employer has zero incentive to just give away anything for free to a unioned employee. That's the deal you made when you joined a union. If you did not understand that deal, then I'm not sure what to say. Being in a union isn't some automatic path to employment nirvana or something... In fact, there could even be a doorway to a lawsuit against the employer for treating a specific employee differently than all the other unionized employees. Unions make things... difficult, despite whatever nostalgic views some may carry towards them.
  - dontlaugh 4y ago
    Unions are democratic organisations. If they’re insisting on gaining something, then a majority of the members are insisting on it. Employers are already not giving anything for free to employees. They do it when forced, either by market forces or the threat of organised workers.
    - ejb999 4y ago
      I find my employer quite generous when times are good, even when they don't need to be, less so when things are tight. Maybe you should work for better companies?
    - Alupis 4y ago
      > Unions are democratic organisations. If they’re insisting on gaining something, then a majority of the members are insisting on it. This is not how unions operate in reality. But regardless, you either get something because your employer thinks it will make your happier, or you get something because your union insists on it. Why would you get special treatment just because you're in a union? Your union has to negotiate and accept things on your behalf... not you. You lost that right when you joined the union.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
In my country only unions get a seat at the table and whatever they negotiate applies to everyone. Pro: This makes certain that corporations can't steamroll Hassan the semi literate immigrant with a contract done by business school suits. Con: Kills Union membership because there's no perk to being in one.
Dylan16807 4y ago
> For every good union story out there, there are an equal amount of bad union stories. There's both, for sure, but I don't know about "equal". Except in a cardinality sense, where you can get as many as you want if you keep looking indefinitely.
dangus 4y ago
I’ve never been able to negotiate a damn thing with my employer. There’s no such thing as individual negotiation except on the day you get an offer letter, and that’s if you’re lucky enough to be an in-demand professional worker. This is retail we are talking about here. Do any of you remember what it’s like to work hourly jobs? I’ll say it one more time: there’s no such thing as negotiation. “For every good union story out there there are an equal amount of bad stories” seems like a false equivalency. All I see is union members on average making better compensation than non-union employees. The numbers do not lie. [1] Apple knew this news story will read exactly like it’s reading when it took the actions it took. Giving non-union employees something visible like this is a well-known union busting tactic. They want people thinking of unionizing to feel bad for not getting some relatively worthless perks. Meanwhile, Apple’s unionized store will be able negotiate far better benefits than non-unionized stores, the kinds of “perks” that matter like better hourly pay and healthcare, not some one-time benefit that’s arguably just a tool for the job. The pitch against unions in America works just the same as the concept of “temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” “You don’t want all this scary union bureaucracy because you’re so above average that the union’s contract is going to hold you back.” It’s a lie. [1] [PDF] nonunion employees make 83% of the salary that union employees make: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf
- bsder 4y ago
  Non-union employees also make more when in proximity to unions. See: states without "right-to-work" laws.
  - dangus 4y ago
    Do you have some data to back up that statement? Because I provided government data on the issue. “In proximity to unions” …do you mean management?
    - bsder 4y ago
      "“Right-to-Work” States Still Have Lower Wages" https://www.epi.org/publication/right-to-work-states-have-lower-wages/ https://www.epi.org/publication/right-to-work-states-have-lo...

by Alupis 4y ago

threeseed 4y ago

> For every good union story out there, there are an equal amount of bad union stories Do you have empirical evidence for this claim ? Because when you look back over time many fundamental workers rights came from union involvement.

ejb999 4y ago
>>Do you have empirical evidence for this claim ? Do you have empirical evidence that this is not true?
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Yes, they just presented that evidence to you: > Because when you look back over time many fundamental workers rights came from union involvement.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    I don't think we're in any danger now, in 2022 of returning to 18 hour work days and acceptable workplace deaths. Yes, unions helped usher in a new age of employee rights, and we are all thankful for them. However, in the absence of anything real to fight for, unions in the modern day have increasingly become more of a nuisance than a necessity - for both the employee and employer side.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      > in 2022 of returning to 18 hour work days and acceptable workplace deaths This is exactly what is happening in the gig economy. Workers that are not classified as workers and have no representation being taken advantage of by companies like Uber etc.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        This is a crazy take on a volunteer, intended-to-be-part-time-side-hussle-money "gigs". The "Gig Economy" is a fable for the most part. Some small minority of people have made it a full time job, sure, but that is not the norm, not even close. No one is being taken advantage of by Uber, etc. You choose to accept a trip or not... it's that simple.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        > The "Gig Economy" is a fable for the most part. Some small minority of people have made it a full time job, sure, but that is not the norm, not even close. This is a fallacy. It doesn't matter if it were the norm or not. If it can happen at all, the original claim stands. On top of that, it can expand and in fact is. > No one is being taken advantage of by Uber, etc. You choose to accept a trip or not... it's that simple. This argument is completely invalid. Any worker can choose to accept a job or not; therefore no worker can ever be taken advantage of? Absurd.
    - yoasif_ 4y ago
      > I don't think we're in any danger now, in 2022 of returning to 18 hour work days and acceptable workplace deaths. Really? Workplace deaths seem absolutely acceptable, as far as I can tell: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/23/in-a-case-of-a-truckers-life-vs-his-cargo-judge-neil-gorsuch-ruled-for-the-cargo/ https://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/23/in-a-case-of-a-trucker...

dontlaugh 4y ago

That’s not true. Unions negotiate minimums, using collective power to balance the employer’s power over employees. Individual employees are free to negotiate individually beyond that. Many do just that, but of course it’s less likely to succeed since individuals don’t have the ability to threaten industrial action.

Alupis 4y ago
Given that the union will insist on gaining something during collective bargaining negotiations - completely regardless of whatever personal concessions an employer has made during the fiscal year - an employer has zero incentive to just give away anything for free to a unioned employee. That's the deal you made when you joined a union. If you did not understand that deal, then I'm not sure what to say. Being in a union isn't some automatic path to employment nirvana or something... In fact, there could even be a doorway to a lawsuit against the employer for treating a specific employee differently than all the other unionized employees. Unions make things... difficult, despite whatever nostalgic views some may carry towards them.
- dontlaugh 4y ago
  Unions are democratic organisations. If they’re insisting on gaining something, then a majority of the members are insisting on it. Employers are already not giving anything for free to employees. They do it when forced, either by market forces or the threat of organised workers.
  - ejb999 4y ago
    I find my employer quite generous when times are good, even when they don't need to be, less so when things are tight. Maybe you should work for better companies?
  - Alupis 4y ago
    > Unions are democratic organisations. If they’re insisting on gaining something, then a majority of the members are insisting on it. This is not how unions operate in reality. But regardless, you either get something because your employer thinks it will make your happier, or you get something because your union insists on it. Why would you get special treatment just because you're in a union? Your union has to negotiate and accept things on your behalf... not you. You lost that right when you joined the union.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

In my country only unions get a seat at the table and whatever they negotiate applies to everyone. Pro: This makes certain that corporations can't steamroll Hassan the semi literate immigrant with a contract done by business school suits. Con: Kills Union membership because there's no perk to being in one.

Dylan16807 4y ago

> For every good union story out there, there are an equal amount of bad union stories. There's both, for sure, but I don't know about "equal". Except in a cardinality sense, where you can get as many as you want if you keep looking indefinitely.

dangus 4y ago

I’ve never been able to negotiate a damn thing with my employer. There’s no such thing as individual negotiation except on the day you get an offer letter, and that’s if you’re lucky enough to be an in-demand professional worker. This is retail we are talking about here. Do any of you remember what it’s like to work hourly jobs? I’ll say it one more time: there’s no such thing as negotiation. “For every good union story out there there are an equal amount of bad stories” seems like a false equivalency. All I see is union members on average making better compensation than non-union employees. The numbers do not lie. [1] Apple knew this news story will read exactly like it’s reading when it took the actions it took. Giving non-union employees something visible like this is a well-known union busting tactic. They want people thinking of unionizing to feel bad for not getting some relatively worthless perks. Meanwhile, Apple’s unionized store will be able negotiate far better benefits than non-unionized stores, the kinds of “perks” that matter like better hourly pay and healthcare, not some one-time benefit that’s arguably just a tool for the job. The pitch against unions in America works just the same as the concept of “temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” “You don’t want all this scary union bureaucracy because you’re so above average that the union’s contract is going to hold you back.” It’s a lie. [1] [PDF] nonunion employees make 83% of the salary that union employees make: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

bsder 4y ago
Non-union employees also make more when in proximity to unions. See: states without "right-to-work" laws.
- dangus 4y ago
  Do you have some data to back up that statement? Because I provided government data on the issue. “In proximity to unions” …do you mean management?
  - bsder 4y ago
    "“Right-to-Work” States Still Have Lower Wages" https://www.epi.org/publication/right-to-work-states-have-lower-wages/ https://www.epi.org/publication/right-to-work-states-have-lo...