4 ms·

So the HR would rather impose authority than make workers' lives easier?

collegeburner 4y ago
no, the point is maybe the union wants a 9% raise. if you put new desks in you now pay a 9% raise and new desks. if you keep it for bargaining then maybe you pay an 8% raise and include some other benefits like new desks.
- sitkack 4y ago
  Why should employees pay for desks? Sounds like a strategy to make the work environment suck so that people are willing to spend their own money on work supplies, traditional corporate welfare. Which reminds me, all those jobs I brought my own monitors … I should have just resigned.
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    This is all easily answered and resolved by paying equity. Then we can dispense with this silly back-and-forth. Right now it's like a toddler trying to get other toddlers to work for them while they try to grub all the profit. Make the profit spread over all stakeholders...no more arguments and we can all continue on, making money.
    - buck4roo 4y ago
      Close. It's not about pay equity, it's about a small minority (employers/directors/shareholders) currently deciding what happens with the profits made from the labor of all the WORKERS. (And about that same small minority also deciding whether to burden society with a newly unemployed person by firing any worker.) Those decisions should instead be made by the workers, democratically, in the same manner we pretend to glorify for civil society's governance: one person one vote. This is how worker-owned co-op's operate.
      - philwelch 4y ago
        Worker-owned co-ops were always allowed. Nothing stopping workers from starting them instead of working for traditional companies.
  - collegeburner 4y ago
    they're not. the point is in a traditional setup the company springs for standing desks as a perk. in a unionized setup it's better to hold stuff back for negotiations. this is the flip side to collective bargaining, you kinda gotta go through "The Process" for everything. there's also the considerations that 1. unions sometimes don't like the workplace just adding perks bc it's perceived as "undermining" the union and 2. unions will always push for more even if you add a perk like new standing desks (bc that's their job) so the workplace kinda has to always push for less so they come to a middle ground compromise.
that_guy_iain 4y ago
No, the point is you get to make demands and make the company meet your way. That means once the deal is done, that's the deal. It's literally fair. You made a deal, now that is the deal. Your deal is different from other employees deal. There are upsides and downsides to both. Upside for the union employees, they got all the benefits they demanded with the downside of no new benefits. Upside for non-union employees is they get all the new benefits with the downsides they don't have all the benefits the union employees demanded and got because they thought they were that important.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  Except there is no singular "other employees' deal" — each non-union employee has their own contract. Do you think Apple made everyone individually negotiate for these perks? Or did they just give the perks to all non-union employees because they think it'll prevent other stores from unionizing?
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    They are acting in bad faith. Just like Starbucks, which is doing the same thing to cause problems for thier current employee unions.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Sylamore 4y ago
    A place I worked at previously had some warehouse locations that were unionized. Regional leadership was very concerned that if the Union locations interacted freely with the non-union locations that it might spread. Besides trying to have management employees be the only bridge between sites wherever possible, that also included treating the non-union employees to more perks like company provided drinks, snacks, more breaks, better pay, and better staffing levels. In some cases our non-union warehouse employees were paid more than the union employees for the same position. They also made sure to play up incidents like when there were accidents due to say a forklift operator being intoxicated at work having their job saved by the union. In many ways the non-union employees benefited from the union existence, however many of the perks given to the non-union employees continued even after the union warehouses closed - and when evaluating locations to shut down union places were always at the top of the evaluation list.
RC_ITR 4y ago
Well, the point of a union is that management actually has a very bad sense for what employees want, so employees can't rely on management to meet their needs. Like in this metaphor, sit/stand desks are a visible 'we care about you' move that cost $500/head one time. Meanwhile, the dental plan sucks and management ignores it because only a small subset of the employees notice and even then, it's only periodically. So from that point of view, HR probably just said "well, based on the union negotiations, they don't seem to care about the desks, might as well shelve it and put the money to use elsewhere." OP is the one adding the color about 'saving it for the next negotiation'
- bearmode 4y ago
  The point of a union is that management don't care what the employees want/need.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    >don't care what the employees want/need. Do you really think it's malice and not ignorance? Like, sure there's some bad apples, but you really think management thinks 'there's no marginal benefit whatsoever to having better working conditions than our peers?' Keep in mind, this article is about retail workers at Apple
    - bearmode 4y ago
      Not malice, rather sacrificing employee wellbeing in the name of profit and growth. There is a reason we needed unions to fight for us to have weekends off, a minimum wage, paid holidays, maternity and paternity rights, sickness provision, and more.
ldoughty 4y ago
Firstly: I support unions... Playing devil's advocate though: HR's hands might be tied. I don't know the language of the collective bargin contract, but I've heard of unions making it difficult to replace carpeting due to the wording on contracts... Even assuming a good-faith employer, there's an additional legal burden to make sure you DONT violate the contract, which can slow things down weeks or months... Unfortunately this article is behind a paywall so I can't get the details, but from the glimpse, "money for school" likely is considered a salary-like benefit (it's taxed as such), so it likely has contract wording considering it.
- itsdrewmiller 4y ago
  Where have you heard this? In general things not specifically discussed in a CBA default to management ("management rights") so this would seem to require a carpeting clause in the CBA.

no, the point is maybe the union wants a 9% raise. if you put new desks in you now pay a 9% raise and new desks. if you keep it for bargaining then maybe you pay an 8% raise and include some other benefits like new desks.

sitkack 4y ago
Why should employees pay for desks? Sounds like a strategy to make the work environment suck so that people are willing to spend their own money on work supplies, traditional corporate welfare. Which reminds me, all those jobs I brought my own monitors … I should have just resigned.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  This is all easily answered and resolved by paying equity. Then we can dispense with this silly back-and-forth. Right now it's like a toddler trying to get other toddlers to work for them while they try to grub all the profit. Make the profit spread over all stakeholders...no more arguments and we can all continue on, making money.
  - buck4roo 4y ago
    Close. It's not about pay equity, it's about a small minority (employers/directors/shareholders) currently deciding what happens with the profits made from the labor of all the WORKERS. (And about that same small minority also deciding whether to burden society with a newly unemployed person by firing any worker.) Those decisions should instead be made by the workers, democratically, in the same manner we pretend to glorify for civil society's governance: one person one vote. This is how worker-owned co-op's operate.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Worker-owned co-ops were always allowed. Nothing stopping workers from starting them instead of working for traditional companies.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  they're not. the point is in a traditional setup the company springs for standing desks as a perk. in a unionized setup it's better to hold stuff back for negotiations. this is the flip side to collective bargaining, you kinda gotta go through "The Process" for everything. there's also the considerations that 1. unions sometimes don't like the workplace just adding perks bc it's perceived as "undermining" the union and 2. unions will always push for more even if you add a perk like new standing desks (bc that's their job) so the workplace kinda has to always push for less so they come to a middle ground compromise.

that_guy_iain 4y ago

No, the point is you get to make demands and make the company meet your way. That means once the deal is done, that's the deal. It's literally fair. You made a deal, now that is the deal. Your deal is different from other employees deal. There are upsides and downsides to both. Upside for the union employees, they got all the benefits they demanded with the downside of no new benefits. Upside for non-union employees is they get all the new benefits with the downsides they don't have all the benefits the union employees demanded and got because they thought they were that important.

jakelazaroff 4y ago
Except there is no singular "other employees' deal" — each non-union employee has their own contract. Do you think Apple made everyone individually negotiate for these perks? Or did they just give the perks to all non-union employees because they think it'll prevent other stores from unionizing?
- datavirtue 4y ago
  They are acting in bad faith. Just like Starbucks, which is doing the same thing to cause problems for thier current employee unions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Sylamore 4y ago
  A place I worked at previously had some warehouse locations that were unionized. Regional leadership was very concerned that if the Union locations interacted freely with the non-union locations that it might spread. Besides trying to have management employees be the only bridge between sites wherever possible, that also included treating the non-union employees to more perks like company provided drinks, snacks, more breaks, better pay, and better staffing levels. In some cases our non-union warehouse employees were paid more than the union employees for the same position. They also made sure to play up incidents like when there were accidents due to say a forklift operator being intoxicated at work having their job saved by the union. In many ways the non-union employees benefited from the union existence, however many of the perks given to the non-union employees continued even after the union warehouses closed - and when evaluating locations to shut down union places were always at the top of the evaluation list.

RC_ITR 4y ago

Well, the point of a union is that management actually has a very bad sense for what employees want, so employees can't rely on management to meet their needs. Like in this metaphor, sit/stand desks are a visible 'we care about you' move that cost $500/head one time. Meanwhile, the dental plan sucks and management ignores it because only a small subset of the employees notice and even then, it's only periodically. So from that point of view, HR probably just said "well, based on the union negotiations, they don't seem to care about the desks, might as well shelve it and put the money to use elsewhere." OP is the one adding the color about 'saving it for the next negotiation'

bearmode 4y ago
The point of a union is that management don't care what the employees want/need.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  >don't care what the employees want/need. Do you really think it's malice and not ignorance? Like, sure there's some bad apples, but you really think management thinks 'there's no marginal benefit whatsoever to having better working conditions than our peers?' Keep in mind, this article is about retail workers at Apple
  - bearmode 4y ago
    Not malice, rather sacrificing employee wellbeing in the name of profit and growth. There is a reason we needed unions to fight for us to have weekends off, a minimum wage, paid holidays, maternity and paternity rights, sickness provision, and more.

ldoughty 4y ago

Firstly: I support unions... Playing devil's advocate though: HR's hands might be tied. I don't know the language of the collective bargin contract, but I've heard of unions making it difficult to replace carpeting due to the wording on contracts... Even assuming a good-faith employer, there's an additional legal burden to make sure you DONT violate the contract, which can slow things down weeks or months... Unfortunately this article is behind a paywall so I can't get the details, but from the glimpse, "money for school" likely is considered a salary-like benefit (it's taxed as such), so it likely has contract wording considering it.

itsdrewmiller 4y ago
Where have you heard this? In general things not specifically discussed in a CBA default to management ("management rights") so this would seem to require a carpeting clause in the CBA.