10 ms·

Evidence-based conclusions about ADHD

68 points by coldblues 4y ago

nomel 4y ago
All of the initialisms should be expanded/hoverable. This is impossible to read, directly.
TurkishPoptart 4y ago
This looks cool, but it's not useful or interesting to me. I don't need to "heal from stigma and internalized ableism", I need to get things done and my brain is resistant to this. "stigma" and "ableism" is just psychobabble to me.
- ageitgey 4y ago
  To be fair, that was a question from a reddit user that you are quoting.
  - TurkishPoptart 4y ago
    Fair enough. Sorry, I don't want to be overly critical.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  Stigma is psychobabble to you? Even if you somehow don't care what other people think, stigma gets in the way of medication.
  - flyingfences 4y ago
    Even if stigma gets in the way, it's not something about which I can do anything. Reading about it is not useful to me.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      You can learn how to navigate against and around other people's biases.
      - flyingfences 4y ago
        I simply do not care about other peoples' biases; they do not affect me nearly enough to be worth navigating against. I care about my own (in)ability to sit down and get something done. That inability is far and away the prime detractor from my quality of life.
EamonnMR 4y ago
I can't believe they're making a site for individuals with ADHD that uses that many carousels.
- positus 4y ago
  Agreed. It almost seems intentionally designed to make it hard to find useful information. Inconsistent spacing, typography, insufficient negative space, lines that are far too long, etc. That being said, I wonder if it was made by someone who has ADHD?
- imwillofficial 4y ago
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Funnily enough, ADDitude is a decent online magazine with some insightful articles- it's the first place I discovered the concept of RSD in detail- but it also falls prey to the content marketing school of web design.
  - somebodythere 4y ago
    Is RSD as a common trait of ADHD actually backed by evidence, or is it just one doctor's theory?
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      No idea, but this was an interesting podcast episode. I recall they do mention at some point about how ADHD in general is physically detectable by doing brain scans and seeing what areas light up? https://additudemag.libsyn.com/278-the-flip-side-of-rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-tapping-into-adhd-energy-motivation https://additudemag.libsyn.com/278-the-flip-side-of-rejectio...
- dexterdog 4y ago
  I listen to a few ADHD podcasts and one of them has the most annoying loud music in the background during commercials as if they're just asking you to skip. It's even more grating if you listen at 3x speed.
CPLX 4y ago
I have a feeling that the massive quantities of prescribed amphetamines we've dumped into the population, including millions of children, is going to age about as well as using radium for wristwatches. But I guess we'll have to see the "evidence" for that.
- Moissanite 4y ago
  Shhh, you're not supposed to acknowledge that having a large fraction of tech workers hopped up on goofballs is more about their economic output than their health.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Is it goofballs or is it microdosing acid? I'm not sure what the lurid tech tabloid tale of the week is.
- LocalH 4y ago
  In situations where there is a dopamine deficiency, stimulants like amphetamines counterintuitively have the opposite effect than you would expect.
  - forbiddenvoid 4y ago
    This is so counterintuitive for folks. Anecdotally, you can find a lot of stories out there from folks with ADHD who will tell you that their medication calmed their brain for the first time. It could be compared to a sensory deprivation experience. "I didn't know my brain could be this quiet," is a common refrain from people with ADHD on taking a stimulant for the first time.
    - adhd1080i 4y ago
      That was my experience. I was astounded that my mind became so calm, and I could just sit and focus on what I needed to. Having since been medicated for some time, I now take this for granted, but it was a real watershed moment for me, that first day.
pgt 4y ago
Not much evidence on here, other than “avoid food colourants.”
- enragedcacti 4y ago
  I would suggest to the creator that they make it clear that the consensus statement is the centerpiece and link to it more clearly. I found it kind of confusing that there was a section of the homepage that promoted the consensus statement without giving me a way to get to it in the body of the page. There is a huge amount of information and evidence that seems to be presented really clearly, its just not front and center on the landing. https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics
  - Enginerrrd 4y ago
    Oh wow thank you. I really tried to find info on this site, and I completely failed except for the few tidbits from the AMA.
- bityard 4y ago
  I wouldn't say there's even evidence of that. > Widespread public belief that artificial food coloring causes ADHD-like hyperactivity in children originated from Benjamin Feingold, a pediatric allergist from California, who proposed in 1973 that salicylates, artificial colors, and artificial flavors cause hyperactivity in children;[35] however, there is no evidence to support broad claims that food coloring causes food intolerance and ADHD-like behavior in children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_coloring#Criticism_and_health_implications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_coloring#Criticism_and_he...
desireco42 4y ago
One of the recommendations, CBT, is inspired by NLP (heavily). I can say that NLP did wonders for me. Site is attrocious :)
- dmead 4y ago
  nlp?
  - whartung 4y ago
    Neuro-linguistic programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
- Dracophoenix 4y ago
  By NLP do you mean Natural Language Processing?
  - treme 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
  - RHSman2 4y ago
  - specialist 4y ago
    For whatever reason, I associate NLP with the pickup artist stuff. Can you recommend a NLP primer that's more, um, wholesome?
- smt88 4y ago
  Can you cite sources that CBT was inspired by NLP? They have similarities, but CBT is evidence-based and NLP is not.
  - benrow 4y ago
tabtab 4y ago
I lost patience to read it.
- echelon 4y ago
  It's performance art.
nekoashide 4y ago
I'll give you an upvote but this doesn't intrest me
RHSman2 4y ago
seba_dos1 4y ago
> Surprisingly, data show that sugar consumption does not worsen symptoms of ADHD. Surprisingly? Sugar consumption is known to help with symptoms of ADHD, as do other dopamine-inducing activities, which makes perfect sense to me. The problem with sugar is that it has a pretty high cost due to all its other effects on the body, that its dopamine hit wears off pretty fast and you quickly build up a tolerance, which is why it's good to look for other stimulants than sugar.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  That's sorta like the effect of caffeine on me. It's not only not a stimulant, but if I take in too much, I straight up get drowsy.
  - jw1224 4y ago
    Same for me. A mug of British tea will rehydrate and refresh me a bit, but a cup of black coffee makes me ready for a nap in 30 minutes!
    - HKH2 4y ago
      How about 2 or 3 cups?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - thomastjeffery 4y ago
    Caffeine without medication evens me out until I have had enough that the side effects take over. It's a bit like medication alone, but with worse side effects. Caffeine with medication (Methylphenidate) works just like caffeine does for most (neurotypical) people.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  There is (or was?) a relatively widespread conception that sugar causes ADHD. Although I think it may have fallen out of favor a bit.
jdthedisciple 4y ago
Is it just me or does the fact that this site already heavily pushes a particular conclusion rather than being open to all evidence lead others to take it with an extra grain of salt as well?
- matai_kolila 4y ago
  Yeah, this strikes me more as, "I need to get the word out about my Super Totally Justified beliefs" than a sober look at ADHD research so far. I'm getting adhd-as-a-lifestyle vibes off of this, and as someone who has ADHD I stay away from that mentality with every ounce of effort I can muster. ADHD is a thing I have, not who I am. Edit: The actual "statement" is a much better representation of what this site (and its organizers) are about: https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics Seriously, I'm stunned by how terrible the landing page is. If the person who built this is here, you've really got to quiet that landing page down, there's way too much going on. In particular, the AMA accordion component should be removed entirely.
msluyter 4y ago
I recommend this Huberman Labs podcast about ADHD: https://hubermanlab.com/adhd-and-how-anyone-can-improve-their-focus/ https://hubermanlab.com/adhd-and-how-anyone-can-improve-thei... Huberman is a neuroscientist and everything he recommends appears to be backed by peer reviewed research. He does also promote various products, but afaict, he does a good job of keeping that from biasing his recommendations.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
NickC25 4y ago
I have ADHD. The amount of sensory overload and lack of design cohesion gave me a headache within seconds.
sedeki 4y ago
"It has been found in studies from Europe, Scandinavia, [...]" Is it common to differentiate between Scandinavia and Europe like this?
naet 4y ago
As someone with ADHD this site is incredibly hard to read and navigate (and probably would be for anyone even without it). If you want this to be a useful resource, please consider: -removing the distracting movement from carousels or moving the content entirely out from carousels -removing the expanding sections and instead display all that content by default (no reason to hide it or make it expandable when it's so small) -maybe the most impactful, adding some more margins and padding to give content enough space to breathe so my eyes can focus on one thing at a time I tried looking through the accessibility menu but nothing there was able to improve these significant issues in the default styles.
- gloryless 4y ago
  I didn't even think about it, I just closed it and went to the comments
- amluto 4y ago
  The site is atrocious. The carousels aren’t even obvious — people will straight-up miss that there’s content. The little accessibility icon teleports about a second after scrolling, distracting the user and covering some text. (Seriously, just because material design made it cool to float a button right over the content doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea.) A small amount of content fades in the first time one scrolls to the bottom, which is a great way to waste bandwidth and many latency really obvious. This site gains nothing from any Javascript or display: styling. Keep the overall theme but make it just plain content.
bityard 4y ago
What a garbage site, in so many dimensions. I really enjoyed how the first answer to the question of how people with ADHD can improve their lives is, "take your meds!"
- MaxDPS 4y ago
  Getting prescribed meds was the single biggest game changer so that makes sense to me…though I guess everyone is different.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
With all the comments about carousels, I just had to look! Is the idea that the site's interactivity is stimulating and thus soothing and attention grabbing for ADHD folks? As being diagnosed myself, I feel like such treatment is disgustingly patronizing.
- erinaceousjones 4y ago
  I reckon they got a rookie web dev to put it together, and naturally they got excited by carousels, because that's what landing pages for shiny products have on them (annoyingly). Yeah, the site hurts my ADHD brain to read too: - The font is simultaneously too big and too small, inconsistent in sizes and styles between headers and sections. The handwritten font used in a few places is basically illegible to me. - The margins/padding are too small - the text comes riiight up to the edge of my screen! Argh - The carousel sections could just be..... all shown as regular paragraphs, one under each other... without the distracting animation... Not great for working memory, having things you want to read going in and out of your visual field! Let me scan the whole document! - The page is full-width, all sections get as wide as possible - meaning you can have lines of text which are like 40 words long! (Longest I counted was one of the reddit AMA questions - 41 words). The line length should be limited to like 75 characters maximum. [1] - Lots of stuff is too close together (not enough vertical padding) - like the reddit AMA questions. Why are those in an accordion and collapsed by default? What are the borders between them for - do they show the top of one or the bottom of another? - Why do the "Source" buttons pop up a modal dialog with a snippet of reddit thread which is styled entirely different to the rest of the site? Again, why not just show all of that information on the page to begin with? - A long page which you just have to scroll is _infinitely_ more readable than a user interface where stuff is popping in and out of existence everywhere and depends on user clicks. What if you're dyspraxic / you don't use a screen reader but your carpal tunnel's acting up? The accessibility options provided by UserWay are a nice touch, but the little human icon at the bottom right isn't immediately obvious what it is (at least give it an "Accessibility" label). Make it _above the fold_ - top of the page. Make it one of the first things someone who would _want_ the accessibility options would spot! I think that sites like this, where it does look like the _intention_ is to make it accessible and readable by as many people as possible, could take inspiration from the UK Gov Design System [2] and read about the principles underpinning it [3]. I've experimented in the past with making my personal blog more readable for "people with brains like me" [4]. It's certainly personal taste / meeting my own personal needs, but how I lay out information on that blog (very narrow, very linear, minimal interaction needed) is a lot different to how the ADHD Evidence Project site lays stuff out (very wide, multiple columns, stuff inconsistently in and accordions and popups) [1] https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability [2] https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ [3] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/government-design-principles https://www.gov.uk/guidance/government-design-principles [4] https://odj.me/blog/2021-10-22-a11y https://odj.me/blog/2021-10-22-a11y (This turned into a long comment because I'm going to send the link to u/sfaraone on reddit as my feedback :-))
dan_quixote 4y ago
That site feels like a cruel joke. Every aspect is either distracting or unreadable - collapsed panels, un-explained acronyms, zero discernible order, etc. Even if you think you don't have ADHD, this site will make you question it!
mastax 4y ago
Relatedly I want to recommend The Adult ADHD Handbook. I don't have time to write a spiel right now but I found it very helpful.
photochemsyn 4y ago
I remain highly skeptical that there is a common neurological physical pathology in children that is treatable by a steady lifetime use of amphetamines and amphetamine derivatives. It's all comparable to the other major pharamceutical scandal of our era, i.e. the opiate prescription business. I would agree that children who appear incapable of paying attention to their teachers (who may not be very good teachers) in often-overcrowded classrooms will be better able to 'stay on task' if given amphetamines, but I don't see this as being much different from the heavy use of amphetamines in, for example, sweatshop factories in Asia where workers are doing repetitive tasks for hours on end. For example: > "Dignity Returns was founded by women who worked for a Bed Bath & Beyond factory in Bangkok, where they were often forced to work up to 60 hours at a stretch, making clothes for international brands like Nike, Gap or Reebok. They were given amphetamines so they could work multiple shifts, and their pay was sometimes docked if they complained of exhaustion." https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/10/25/global-garmet-workers-stitch-unity https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/10/25/global-garmet-... Constant use of amphetamine-type drugs, from Ritalin (methylphenidate) to Adderall (amphetamine) to Desoxyn (methamphetamine) does have numerous negative side effects, from skin acne to amphetamine psychosis, and also results in severe withdrawal symptoms (which accounts for the users tending to justify their diagnoses of ADHD because if they stop taking it, they feel terrible). This has not raised as many red flags as the opiate prescription epidemic, because overdose fatalities are rare in comparison. That said, I'm relatively libertarian in my views on drug use, and it is possible that some people may benefit from judicious use (I drink rather a lot of coffee, after all, and it helps me stay focused) but I think if people were well-informed they'd be much more cautious when it comes to taking such powerful stimulants (and painkillers).
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  Undiagnosed and untreated adults with ADHD develop higher than normal rates of mental illness like anxiety and depression, higher rates of substance abuse and addiction, and often have difficulty maintaining personal relationships, careers, even basic personal responsibilities. Whatever the physiological reason, failing to diagnose and treat ADHD has a detrimental effect for many of us. I was diagnosed a few years ago, after a fairly severe mental health crisis with crippling anxiety and nearly drinking myself to death. Since diagnosis and beginning treatment with stimulants, I’ve been able to put my life back together. My life is stable, I’m happier than I ever was even before my mental health tanked, and my anxiety is manageable enough I seldom take notice of it. I don’t like the side effects of stimulants, particularly the toll they've taken on my already poor dental health (for folks who don’t know, “meth mouth” can be a thing even with prescription amphetamines taken as prescribed, not just from smoking). But I have no doubt in my mind that whatever side effects I’ve experienced or may, it’s better by far than what I’d have experienced without meds.
tomcam 4y ago
> This information War on ADHD stigmatizes affected people, On the contrary I see tons of accommodations made by both private and public organizations. Many, many people seem to enjoy diagnosing themselves with this condition. Can someone point to evidence of stigmatization?
- MaxDPS 4y ago
  Getting meds at the pharmacy (even after getting a prescription) can be a pain. I’ve run into issues where I’ll have a prescription, but the pharmacy that it’s sent to is out of stock. But pharmacy’s aren’t allowed to disclose stock of controlled substances over the phone, so I have to call my Dr to ask them to transfer the prescription to a different pharmacy, hoping that it’s not out of stock. If it is, I have to do that all over again. It’s annoying to say the least.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    I think maybe you answered the wrong comment
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      Not the wrong place; stigma is a huge part of why fulfilling these subscriptions is so awful.
      - tomcam 4y ago
        I don't understand the connection at all. The pharmacy doesn't know if I'm diagnosed with ADHD but I have all those same problems. Also why would they want to withhold drugs from you? Aren't pharmacies usually parts of money-grubbing conglomerates that just want money out of you? What is in it for them to use "stigma" as a way to reduce service to you? Conversely, can you imagine the blowback if this were discovered to be the case?
        Dylan16807 4y ago
pcarolan 4y ago
Can someone with ADHD give an example of a website that is well organized and architected that they find helpful as a counterexample to this site? I'm curious as someone parenting someone with ADHD what that would look like.
- erinaceousjones 4y ago
  UK public sector websites [1] following the gov.uk design system [2] -- I find everything on gov.uk and nhs.uk suuuuper easy to read. [1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivit... [2] https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ (And then, when you look at local authority websites for local councils, or local healthcare trusts, they're an absolute disparate hellscape of information badly put together in powerpoints, word documents, handmade GP websites tacked onto by students on work placements who know a bit about HTML, ...)
KingMachiavelli 4y ago
Site could use some polish but IMO it's not that bad or somehow "worse" because I have ADHD. Nothing factually wrong or biased stands out. It's a standard meta-analysis that finds that most treatment theories have no or limited evidence. I think it's beneficial overall to have the research on ADHD in one place even if it has little practical advice. While it might seem like ADHD is a very normalized condition, there's still some misunderstanding in many countries and regulatory bodies. In the US, where ADHD is most normalized, ADHD can impact your ability to get a commercial flight license which includes recreational flying of certain aircraft [1]. It may prevent you from joining the military which many need to afford higher education [2]. Outside the US, it gets worse. Stimulant treatment in Europe is difficult and underutilized despite the evidence [3]. The strangest effect I've heard (anecdotally) was that ADHD diagnosis can increase mortgage interest rates in Sweden (or maybe it was Norway?). It's strange that ADHD is both rejected as not-real or over-diagnosed and also treated as a severe condition by certain groups. Even if these negative effects can be mitigated by changing medication or getting a medical waiver, it discourages individuals with ADHD from applying and adds more bureaucratic cruft as a cruel joke. [1] https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd [2] https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archives/2022/February/Serving-with-ADHD/ https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archive... [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2942810/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2942810/
- thebigspacefuck 4y ago
  It also drastically increases you life insurance premium.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  I’m very glad to live in the USA. The meds that I’m on aren’t available in Europe. At all.
  - rswskg 4y ago
    What are they?
dashwehacct 4y ago
I feel like there has to be other under explored methods of treating ADHD aside from medication. I’ve yet to find any for myself, but am also incredibly hesitant to medicate my symptoms away. I’ve tried stimulants in the past and was left feeling like I traded one issue (lack of concentration and executive function) for another (racing thought and elevated heart rate). I do see CBT mentioned, but only as an adjunct to medication. Another commenter here mentioned NLP which I have never heard of prior. Will take a look into this as well.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  I’ll get to your question, but first… > racing thought and elevated heart rate This sounds an awful lot like either your dosage was too high or you’re one of the people with ADHD who doesn’t actually respond well to stimulants. Elevated heart rate/blood pressure is common and responsible doctors prescribing these drugs check it routinely, but racing thoughts is not a typical reaction at an appropriate dose. Regarding other methods, one common but less formal thing that has helped me, and which I’ve seen benefit a lot of friends and others diagnosed later in life: developing and nurturing an awareness of the kinds of coping mechanisms that are already present, with close attention to which are helpful but could be developed further and to which are counterproductive or just neutral so they might be put aside. For myself, I’ve realized that there’s a couple common threads through most of my helpful coping mechanisms. Foremost among them: keeping consistent routines is kind of a house of cards, but one which is much more resilient for me if I allow myself to be fairly rigid about them. Another: having a high degree of control over the sensory stimulation I’m exposed to, especially but not only sound, is one of my best defenses against cognitive overload. These coping mechanisms vary by person but they often cluster around the kinds of problem areas that ADHD patients notice rather than the external problem areas that tend to lead to childhood diagnosis (or internalized self judgment reflecting real or perceived external judgment regardless of diagnosis age). As in, “why does ____ cause me to struggle and what’s been most effective when I do struggle?” tends to be a better starting point than “why can’t I just do ____ like normal people seem to do?” If nothing else, it gives you a chance to have self empathy and recognize that there are reasons and that you may already have a framework for those reasons, even if you haven’t noticed it yet.
- 4y ago
janef0421 4y ago
The issue with an "evidence-based" approach is that conducting studies to generate evidence requires substantial capital, and that capital is most available for treatments that are supported by major companies. In this case, pharmaceutical companies make substantial profits from selling stimulants, and medical insurers favour CBT for a variety of reasons, including relatively short treatment timelines. Consequently, evidence will be biased towards those therapies, so the volume of evidence isn't really a good basis for comparing different treatments.
erlich 4y ago
"No objective test can confirm or rule out the diagnosis of ADHD" [1] "hyperactive impulsive and/or inattentive symptoms for at least 6 months...five or more for adults...no other disorder better explains the symptoms" Probably the most well-organized effort in the world to push drugs. If they work for you without side effects, good for you. But all drugs have side effects. Would I would to mess with my dopamine levels to optimize my economic output, no fucking way. [1] Download Slides - https://www.adhdevidence.org/resources https://www.adhdevidence.org/resources
- swader999 4y ago
  I wear glasses to see better. Not that much different to be honest. It optimizes much more than productivity.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- saaaaaam 4y ago
  “Optimising economic output” is the last thing most ADHD people are looking for. Being able to live day to day without nerve-shredding vertiginous chaos touching every part of one’s life is much stronger a motivation.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- triggercut 4y ago
  Yeah, I get it, why should we have to change to fit in a capitalism shaped hole? Absolutely. I struggle with that constantly. But it's much more than that. If it's only affecting your work and nothing else in your life then you're almost lucky.
  - erlich 4y ago
    Would you take the meds if you were retired with more cash than you need?

68 points by coldblues 4y ago

All of the initialisms should be expanded/hoverable. This is impossible to read, directly.

This looks cool, but it's not useful or interesting to me. I don't need to "heal from stigma and internalized ableism", I need to get things done and my brain is resistant to this. "stigma" and "ableism" is just psychobabble to me.

ageitgey 4y ago
To be fair, that was a question from a reddit user that you are quoting.
- TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  Fair enough. Sorry, I don't want to be overly critical.
Dylan16807 4y ago
Stigma is psychobabble to you? Even if you somehow don't care what other people think, stigma gets in the way of medication.
- flyingfences 4y ago
  Even if stigma gets in the way, it's not something about which I can do anything. Reading about it is not useful to me.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    You can learn how to navigate against and around other people's biases.
    - flyingfences 4y ago
      I simply do not care about other peoples' biases; they do not affect me nearly enough to be worth navigating against. I care about my own (in)ability to sit down and get something done. That inability is far and away the prime detractor from my quality of life.

EamonnMR 4y ago

I can't believe they're making a site for individuals with ADHD that uses that many carousels.

positus 4y ago
Agreed. It almost seems intentionally designed to make it hard to find useful information. Inconsistent spacing, typography, insufficient negative space, lines that are far too long, etc. That being said, I wonder if it was made by someone who has ADHD?
imwillofficial 4y ago
Apocryphon 4y ago
Funnily enough, ADDitude is a decent online magazine with some insightful articles- it's the first place I discovered the concept of RSD in detail- but it also falls prey to the content marketing school of web design.
- somebodythere 4y ago
  Is RSD as a common trait of ADHD actually backed by evidence, or is it just one doctor's theory?
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    No idea, but this was an interesting podcast episode. I recall they do mention at some point about how ADHD in general is physically detectable by doing brain scans and seeing what areas light up? https://additudemag.libsyn.com/278-the-flip-side-of-rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-tapping-into-adhd-energy-motivation https://additudemag.libsyn.com/278-the-flip-side-of-rejectio...
dexterdog 4y ago
I listen to a few ADHD podcasts and one of them has the most annoying loud music in the background during commercials as if they're just asking you to skip. It's even more grating if you listen at 3x speed.

CPLX 4y ago

I have a feeling that the massive quantities of prescribed amphetamines we've dumped into the population, including millions of children, is going to age about as well as using radium for wristwatches. But I guess we'll have to see the "evidence" for that.

Moissanite 4y ago
Shhh, you're not supposed to acknowledge that having a large fraction of tech workers hopped up on goofballs is more about their economic output than their health.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Is it goofballs or is it microdosing acid? I'm not sure what the lurid tech tabloid tale of the week is.
LocalH 4y ago
In situations where there is a dopamine deficiency, stimulants like amphetamines counterintuitively have the opposite effect than you would expect.
- forbiddenvoid 4y ago
  This is so counterintuitive for folks. Anecdotally, you can find a lot of stories out there from folks with ADHD who will tell you that their medication calmed their brain for the first time. It could be compared to a sensory deprivation experience. "I didn't know my brain could be this quiet," is a common refrain from people with ADHD on taking a stimulant for the first time.
  - adhd1080i 4y ago
    That was my experience. I was astounded that my mind became so calm, and I could just sit and focus on what I needed to. Having since been medicated for some time, I now take this for granted, but it was a real watershed moment for me, that first day.

pgt 4y ago

Not much evidence on here, other than “avoid food colourants.”

enragedcacti 4y ago
I would suggest to the creator that they make it clear that the consensus statement is the centerpiece and link to it more clearly. I found it kind of confusing that there was a section of the homepage that promoted the consensus statement without giving me a way to get to it in the body of the page. There is a huge amount of information and evidence that seems to be presented really clearly, its just not front and center on the landing. https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
  Oh wow thank you. I really tried to find info on this site, and I completely failed except for the few tidbits from the AMA.
bityard 4y ago
I wouldn't say there's even evidence of that. > Widespread public belief that artificial food coloring causes ADHD-like hyperactivity in children originated from Benjamin Feingold, a pediatric allergist from California, who proposed in 1973 that salicylates, artificial colors, and artificial flavors cause hyperactivity in children;[35] however, there is no evidence to support broad claims that food coloring causes food intolerance and ADHD-like behavior in children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_coloring#Criticism_and_health_implications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_coloring#Criticism_and_he...

desireco42 4y ago

One of the recommendations, CBT, is inspired by NLP (heavily). I can say that NLP did wonders for me. Site is attrocious :)

dmead 4y ago
nlp?
- whartung 4y ago
  Neuro-linguistic programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
Dracophoenix 4y ago
By NLP do you mean Natural Language Processing?
- treme 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
- RHSman2 4y ago
- specialist 4y ago
  For whatever reason, I associate NLP with the pickup artist stuff. Can you recommend a NLP primer that's more, um, wholesome?
smt88 4y ago
Can you cite sources that CBT was inspired by NLP? They have similarities, but CBT is evidence-based and NLP is not.
- benrow 4y ago

tabtab 4y ago

I lost patience to read it.

echelon 4y ago
It's performance art.

nekoashide 4y ago

I'll give you an upvote but this doesn't intrest me

RHSman2 4y ago

seba_dos1 4y ago

> Surprisingly, data show that sugar consumption does not worsen symptoms of ADHD. Surprisingly? Sugar consumption is known to help with symptoms of ADHD, as do other dopamine-inducing activities, which makes perfect sense to me. The problem with sugar is that it has a pretty high cost due to all its other effects on the body, that its dopamine hit wears off pretty fast and you quickly build up a tolerance, which is why it's good to look for other stimulants than sugar.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
That's sorta like the effect of caffeine on me. It's not only not a stimulant, but if I take in too much, I straight up get drowsy.
- jw1224 4y ago
  Same for me. A mug of British tea will rehydrate and refresh me a bit, but a cup of black coffee makes me ready for a nap in 30 minutes!
  - HKH2 4y ago
    How about 2 or 3 cups?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  Caffeine without medication evens me out until I have had enough that the side effects take over. It's a bit like medication alone, but with worse side effects. Caffeine with medication (Methylphenidate) works just like caffeine does for most (neurotypical) people.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
There is (or was?) a relatively widespread conception that sugar causes ADHD. Although I think it may have fallen out of favor a bit.

jdthedisciple 4y ago

Is it just me or does the fact that this site already heavily pushes a particular conclusion rather than being open to all evidence lead others to take it with an extra grain of salt as well?

matai_kolila 4y ago
Yeah, this strikes me more as, "I need to get the word out about my Super Totally Justified beliefs" than a sober look at ADHD research so far. I'm getting adhd-as-a-lifestyle vibes off of this, and as someone who has ADHD I stay away from that mentality with every ounce of effort I can muster. ADHD is a thing I have, not who I am. Edit: The actual "statement" is a much better representation of what this site (and its organizers) are about: https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics Seriously, I'm stunned by how terrible the landing page is. If the person who built this is here, you've really got to quiet that landing page down, there's way too much going on. In particular, the AMA accordion component should be removed entirely.

msluyter 4y ago

I recommend this Huberman Labs podcast about ADHD: https://hubermanlab.com/adhd-and-how-anyone-can-improve-their-focus/ https://hubermanlab.com/adhd-and-how-anyone-can-improve-thei... Huberman is a neuroscientist and everything he recommends appears to be backed by peer reviewed research. He does also promote various products, but afaict, he does a good job of keeping that from biasing his recommendations.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

NickC25 4y ago

I have ADHD. The amount of sensory overload and lack of design cohesion gave me a headache within seconds.

sedeki 4y ago

"It has been found in studies from Europe, Scandinavia, [...]" Is it common to differentiate between Scandinavia and Europe like this?

naet 4y ago

As someone with ADHD this site is incredibly hard to read and navigate (and probably would be for anyone even without it). If you want this to be a useful resource, please consider: -removing the distracting movement from carousels or moving the content entirely out from carousels -removing the expanding sections and instead display all that content by default (no reason to hide it or make it expandable when it's so small) -maybe the most impactful, adding some more margins and padding to give content enough space to breathe so my eyes can focus on one thing at a time I tried looking through the accessibility menu but nothing there was able to improve these significant issues in the default styles.

gloryless 4y ago
I didn't even think about it, I just closed it and went to the comments
amluto 4y ago
The site is atrocious. The carousels aren’t even obvious — people will straight-up miss that there’s content. The little accessibility icon teleports about a second after scrolling, distracting the user and covering some text. (Seriously, just because material design made it cool to float a button right over the content doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea.) A small amount of content fades in the first time one scrolls to the bottom, which is a great way to waste bandwidth and many latency really obvious. This site gains nothing from any Javascript or display: styling. Keep the overall theme but make it just plain content.

bityard 4y ago

What a garbage site, in so many dimensions. I really enjoyed how the first answer to the question of how people with ADHD can improve their lives is, "take your meds!"

MaxDPS 4y ago
Getting prescribed meds was the single biggest game changer so that makes sense to me…though I guess everyone is different.

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

With all the comments about carousels, I just had to look! Is the idea that the site's interactivity is stimulating and thus soothing and attention grabbing for ADHD folks? As being diagnosed myself, I feel like such treatment is disgustingly patronizing.

erinaceousjones 4y ago
I reckon they got a rookie web dev to put it together, and naturally they got excited by carousels, because that's what landing pages for shiny products have on them (annoyingly). Yeah, the site hurts my ADHD brain to read too: - The font is simultaneously too big and too small, inconsistent in sizes and styles between headers and sections. The handwritten font used in a few places is basically illegible to me. - The margins/padding are too small - the text comes riiight up to the edge of my screen! Argh - The carousel sections could just be..... all shown as regular paragraphs, one under each other... without the distracting animation... Not great for working memory, having things you want to read going in and out of your visual field! Let me scan the whole document! - The page is full-width, all sections get as wide as possible - meaning you can have lines of text which are like 40 words long! (Longest I counted was one of the reddit AMA questions - 41 words). The line length should be limited to like 75 characters maximum. [1] - Lots of stuff is too close together (not enough vertical padding) - like the reddit AMA questions. Why are those in an accordion and collapsed by default? What are the borders between them for - do they show the top of one or the bottom of another? - Why do the "Source" buttons pop up a modal dialog with a snippet of reddit thread which is styled entirely different to the rest of the site? Again, why not just show all of that information on the page to begin with? - A long page which you just have to scroll is _infinitely_ more readable than a user interface where stuff is popping in and out of existence everywhere and depends on user clicks. What if you're dyspraxic / you don't use a screen reader but your carpal tunnel's acting up? The accessibility options provided by UserWay are a nice touch, but the little human icon at the bottom right isn't immediately obvious what it is (at least give it an "Accessibility" label). Make it _above the fold_ - top of the page. Make it one of the first things someone who would _want_ the accessibility options would spot! I think that sites like this, where it does look like the _intention_ is to make it accessible and readable by as many people as possible, could take inspiration from the UK Gov Design System [2] and read about the principles underpinning it [3]. I've experimented in the past with making my personal blog more readable for "people with brains like me" [4]. It's certainly personal taste / meeting my own personal needs, but how I lay out information on that blog (very narrow, very linear, minimal interaction needed) is a lot different to how the ADHD Evidence Project site lays stuff out (very wide, multiple columns, stuff inconsistently in and accordions and popups) [1] https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability [2] https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ [3] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/government-design-principles https://www.gov.uk/guidance/government-design-principles [4] https://odj.me/blog/2021-10-22-a11y https://odj.me/blog/2021-10-22-a11y (This turned into a long comment because I'm going to send the link to u/sfaraone on reddit as my feedback :-))

dan_quixote 4y ago

That site feels like a cruel joke. Every aspect is either distracting or unreadable - collapsed panels, un-explained acronyms, zero discernible order, etc. Even if you think you don't have ADHD, this site will make you question it!

mastax 4y ago

Relatedly I want to recommend The Adult ADHD Handbook. I don't have time to write a spiel right now but I found it very helpful.

photochemsyn 4y ago

I remain highly skeptical that there is a common neurological physical pathology in children that is treatable by a steady lifetime use of amphetamines and amphetamine derivatives. It's all comparable to the other major pharamceutical scandal of our era, i.e. the opiate prescription business. I would agree that children who appear incapable of paying attention to their teachers (who may not be very good teachers) in often-overcrowded classrooms will be better able to 'stay on task' if given amphetamines, but I don't see this as being much different from the heavy use of amphetamines in, for example, sweatshop factories in Asia where workers are doing repetitive tasks for hours on end. For example: > "Dignity Returns was founded by women who worked for a Bed Bath & Beyond factory in Bangkok, where they were often forced to work up to 60 hours at a stretch, making clothes for international brands like Nike, Gap or Reebok. They were given amphetamines so they could work multiple shifts, and their pay was sometimes docked if they complained of exhaustion." https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/10/25/global-garmet-workers-stitch-unity https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/10/25/global-garmet-... Constant use of amphetamine-type drugs, from Ritalin (methylphenidate) to Adderall (amphetamine) to Desoxyn (methamphetamine) does have numerous negative side effects, from skin acne to amphetamine psychosis, and also results in severe withdrawal symptoms (which accounts for the users tending to justify their diagnoses of ADHD because if they stop taking it, they feel terrible). This has not raised as many red flags as the opiate prescription epidemic, because overdose fatalities are rare in comparison. That said, I'm relatively libertarian in my views on drug use, and it is possible that some people may benefit from judicious use (I drink rather a lot of coffee, after all, and it helps me stay focused) but I think if people were well-informed they'd be much more cautious when it comes to taking such powerful stimulants (and painkillers).

eyelidlessness 4y ago
Undiagnosed and untreated adults with ADHD develop higher than normal rates of mental illness like anxiety and depression, higher rates of substance abuse and addiction, and often have difficulty maintaining personal relationships, careers, even basic personal responsibilities. Whatever the physiological reason, failing to diagnose and treat ADHD has a detrimental effect for many of us. I was diagnosed a few years ago, after a fairly severe mental health crisis with crippling anxiety and nearly drinking myself to death. Since diagnosis and beginning treatment with stimulants, I’ve been able to put my life back together. My life is stable, I’m happier than I ever was even before my mental health tanked, and my anxiety is manageable enough I seldom take notice of it. I don’t like the side effects of stimulants, particularly the toll they've taken on my already poor dental health (for folks who don’t know, “meth mouth” can be a thing even with prescription amphetamines taken as prescribed, not just from smoking). But I have no doubt in my mind that whatever side effects I’ve experienced or may, it’s better by far than what I’d have experienced without meds.

tomcam 4y ago

> This information War on ADHD stigmatizes affected people, On the contrary I see tons of accommodations made by both private and public organizations. Many, many people seem to enjoy diagnosing themselves with this condition. Can someone point to evidence of stigmatization?

MaxDPS 4y ago
Getting meds at the pharmacy (even after getting a prescription) can be a pain. I’ve run into issues where I’ll have a prescription, but the pharmacy that it’s sent to is out of stock. But pharmacy’s aren’t allowed to disclose stock of controlled substances over the phone, so I have to call my Dr to ask them to transfer the prescription to a different pharmacy, hoping that it’s not out of stock. If it is, I have to do that all over again. It’s annoying to say the least.
- tomcam 4y ago
  I think maybe you answered the wrong comment
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Not the wrong place; stigma is a huge part of why fulfilling these subscriptions is so awful.
    - tomcam 4y ago
      I don't understand the connection at all. The pharmacy doesn't know if I'm diagnosed with ADHD but I have all those same problems. Also why would they want to withhold drugs from you? Aren't pharmacies usually parts of money-grubbing conglomerates that just want money out of you? What is in it for them to use "stigma" as a way to reduce service to you? Conversely, can you imagine the blowback if this were discovered to be the case?
      - Dylan16807 4y ago

pcarolan 4y ago

Can someone with ADHD give an example of a website that is well organized and architected that they find helpful as a counterexample to this site? I'm curious as someone parenting someone with ADHD what that would look like.

erinaceousjones 4y ago
UK public sector websites [1] following the gov.uk design system [2] -- I find everything on gov.uk and nhs.uk suuuuper easy to read. [1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivit... [2] https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ https://design-system.service.gov.uk/ (And then, when you look at local authority websites for local councils, or local healthcare trusts, they're an absolute disparate hellscape of information badly put together in powerpoints, word documents, handmade GP websites tacked onto by students on work placements who know a bit about HTML, ...)

KingMachiavelli 4y ago

Site could use some polish but IMO it's not that bad or somehow "worse" because I have ADHD. Nothing factually wrong or biased stands out. It's a standard meta-analysis that finds that most treatment theories have no or limited evidence. I think it's beneficial overall to have the research on ADHD in one place even if it has little practical advice. While it might seem like ADHD is a very normalized condition, there's still some misunderstanding in many countries and regulatory bodies. In the US, where ADHD is most normalized, ADHD can impact your ability to get a commercial flight license which includes recreational flying of certain aircraft [1]. It may prevent you from joining the military which many need to afford higher education [2]. Outside the US, it gets worse. Stimulant treatment in Europe is difficult and underutilized despite the evidence [3]. The strangest effect I've heard (anecdotally) was that ADHD diagnosis can increase mortgage interest rates in Sweden (or maybe it was Norway?). It's strange that ADHD is both rejected as not-real or over-diagnosed and also treated as a severe condition by certain groups. Even if these negative effects can be mitigated by changing medication or getting a medical waiver, it discourages individuals with ADHD from applying and adds more bureaucratic cruft as a cruel joke. [1] https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd [2] https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archives/2022/February/Serving-with-ADHD/ https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/NCO-Journal/Archive... [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2942810/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2942810/

thebigspacefuck 4y ago
It also drastically increases you life insurance premium.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
I’m very glad to live in the USA. The meds that I’m on aren’t available in Europe. At all.
- rswskg 4y ago
  What are they?

dashwehacct 4y ago

I feel like there has to be other under explored methods of treating ADHD aside from medication. I’ve yet to find any for myself, but am also incredibly hesitant to medicate my symptoms away. I’ve tried stimulants in the past and was left feeling like I traded one issue (lack of concentration and executive function) for another (racing thought and elevated heart rate). I do see CBT mentioned, but only as an adjunct to medication. Another commenter here mentioned NLP which I have never heard of prior. Will take a look into this as well.

eyelidlessness 4y ago
I’ll get to your question, but first… > racing thought and elevated heart rate This sounds an awful lot like either your dosage was too high or you’re one of the people with ADHD who doesn’t actually respond well to stimulants. Elevated heart rate/blood pressure is common and responsible doctors prescribing these drugs check it routinely, but racing thoughts is not a typical reaction at an appropriate dose. Regarding other methods, one common but less formal thing that has helped me, and which I’ve seen benefit a lot of friends and others diagnosed later in life: developing and nurturing an awareness of the kinds of coping mechanisms that are already present, with close attention to which are helpful but could be developed further and to which are counterproductive or just neutral so they might be put aside. For myself, I’ve realized that there’s a couple common threads through most of my helpful coping mechanisms. Foremost among them: keeping consistent routines is kind of a house of cards, but one which is much more resilient for me if I allow myself to be fairly rigid about them. Another: having a high degree of control over the sensory stimulation I’m exposed to, especially but not only sound, is one of my best defenses against cognitive overload. These coping mechanisms vary by person but they often cluster around the kinds of problem areas that ADHD patients notice rather than the external problem areas that tend to lead to childhood diagnosis (or internalized self judgment reflecting real or perceived external judgment regardless of diagnosis age). As in, “why does ____ cause me to struggle and what’s been most effective when I do struggle?” tends to be a better starting point than “why can’t I just do ____ like normal people seem to do?” If nothing else, it gives you a chance to have self empathy and recognize that there are reasons and that you may already have a framework for those reasons, even if you haven’t noticed it yet.
4y ago

janef0421 4y ago

The issue with an "evidence-based" approach is that conducting studies to generate evidence requires substantial capital, and that capital is most available for treatments that are supported by major companies. In this case, pharmaceutical companies make substantial profits from selling stimulants, and medical insurers favour CBT for a variety of reasons, including relatively short treatment timelines. Consequently, evidence will be biased towards those therapies, so the volume of evidence isn't really a good basis for comparing different treatments.

erlich 4y ago

"No objective test can confirm or rule out the diagnosis of ADHD" [1] "hyperactive impulsive and/or inattentive symptoms for at least 6 months...five or more for adults...no other disorder better explains the symptoms" Probably the most well-organized effort in the world to push drugs. If they work for you without side effects, good for you. But all drugs have side effects. Would I would to mess with my dopamine levels to optimize my economic output, no fucking way. [1] Download Slides - https://www.adhdevidence.org/resources https://www.adhdevidence.org/resources

swader999 4y ago
I wear glasses to see better. Not that much different to be honest. It optimizes much more than productivity.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
saaaaaam 4y ago
“Optimising economic output” is the last thing most ADHD people are looking for. Being able to live day to day without nerve-shredding vertiginous chaos touching every part of one’s life is much stronger a motivation.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
triggercut 4y ago
Yeah, I get it, why should we have to change to fit in a capitalism shaped hole? Absolutely. I struggle with that constantly. But it's much more than that. If it's only affecting your work and nothing else in your life then you're almost lucky.
- erlich 4y ago
  Would you take the meds if you were retired with more cash than you need?