8 ms·

Governments are basically the mob, except that they figured out that they can exert more control over a longer period of time if they have documents that "const

Governments are basically the mob, except that they figured out that they can exert more control over a longer period of time if they have documents that "constrain" their powers and they offer you a say in some matters. Every year, I pay the US government protection money at a higher rate than the mob demanded (~35% vs ~15%). They mark their territory, control who enters and exits, and demand compliance with their rules. If you are under their protection, they give you a little document that tells other gangs not to screw with you. They back all of this up with guns and threats of violence, held by unelected thugs. They give you a process to prove your innocence, but the process itself is a punishment, since it is a huge resource drain to go through. The FBI are the most visible thugs.

CabSauce 4y ago
Except for that whole voting thing. The "government", in a functioning democracy, is us.
nelsondev 4y ago
Yup exactly. Our default social contract gives governments a monopoly on violence, of course they’ll use it.
- Eupraxias 4y ago
  "Right of Force". At some point, freedom is restricted at gunpoint. Government works this way because it is logical that it do so. This is why it is critical to have government established "of, by, and for" the constituency - because even in a best-case scenario, corruption will get in the cracks and make them bigger, etc.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I'm going to expose my political bias here: I think the only way to prevent the corruption and expansion is to keep the government small by limiting the amount of resources that are under its direct control. Just offering "of, by, and for" won't do it if there are millions of people on the payroll. Of course, the Somali government is very small and Somali people are very free, and they aren't doing very well either.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Would you consider the EU to have a large amount of regulations but those countries are generally doing well. I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        > I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average I think this is true, but I don't think the correlation is causal. Rich countries throughout history have tended to grow their governments after becoming rich by adopting social programs and trying to flex their muscle internationally. Most of Europe followed this model, as did the US.
        themitigating 4y ago
        So post ww2 for the US? We've still one of the best counties to live in. Edit. Are you claiming social programs are created to flex your country? Do you have proof of this?
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        I am not claiming that social programs are a flex. The military is a flex. Post WW2 for the US, post-Victorian era in the UK, post-Napoleon in France, post-Tarism in Russia, post-oil-boom in Scandanavia, etc. Countries with big social programs are still great to live in, but I only mean that the social programs and big government are clearly not part of the reason why those countries became rich. The big government is caused by the wealth, not the other way around.
        themitigating 4y ago
        That doesn't mean a big government isn't responsible for maintaining that wealth which is why I mentioned post ww2 us.
    - 4y ago
bell-cot 4y ago
> I pay the US government protection money at a higher rate than the mob demanded (~35% vs ~15%) Does your mob allow a bunch of deductions, tax dodges, "carried interest" rates, IRA's, and other tricks to cut what the well-to-do actually pay them down to half (or less) of their headline "rate"? EDIT: Examples so far seem to be limited, one-off "if you're patting the right guy's back" situations. Vs. the US gov't allows an unlimited number of sleazy Wall Street types to launder unlimited amounts of money through various tax dodges. This might be good evidence that the mob is smarter about collecting "taxes" than the US gov't...but it sounds like the answer to my question is "basically, no".
- jollyllama 4y ago
  I would think so. Ex. bar owner gives some free drinks and use of the bar to the mob probably doesn't have to pay the same protection fee.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  My wife's family paid almost nothing to the Italian mafia a hundred years ago because they gave the right people free shoes. I would say "yes." Edit: To be clear, this was not a unique situation. A lot of businesses generally got sweetheart rates from street gangs and mobs because they helped the mob and mob bosses in other ways. The same way Wall Street financiers get a sweetheart deal because they manage the politicians' money and employ their children.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    If you have a problem with the Italian Mafia can you take them to court or have your elected representatives do something about it? What a ridiculous comparison
    - notch656a 4y ago
      The average person can do more to influence a local mafia boss than they can to influence the federal government. Hell if you have a few dozen friends with guns you can actually stop the mafia from fucking with you for as long as they stick around. * Edit since I'm spent on replies : Sure you can name that one favela somewhere where a few dozen were beheaded by the mob. The idea isn't that you'll win 100% of the time, the idea is you have some chance. I raise your one unnamed favela with several unnamed Mexican pueblos where cartel was run out by campesinos w/ break-action shotguns and rifles. And the mere fact you actually have a chance at winning is often enough to get a counterparty to back off.
jason-phillips 4y ago
> Governments are basically the mob... Governments are institutions. Considering the anarchic alternative, what we currently have is preferable. People as a group, the actual mob, cannot be trusted. They are irrational and are therefore potentially dangerous. The trick is to safeguard against institutional rot.
- bitwize 4y ago
  > Governments are institutions. So's the mob. It's why they call it "organized" crime.
yummypaint 4y ago
This takes me back to conversations in the middle school cafeteria. When was the last time you had to bribe a US official to get basic tasks done like register your car? In places that actually have criminal governments this is the norm. Do some research about what it's like in places where there is truly no mechanism for people to remove those in power. Look at russia and the mechanisms by which decisions are made and what means there are for the public to change them, and contrast that with all the NIMBYism which often dominates the process in the US. A democratic government is the means by which the population prevents the monopoly on legal violence from falling permanently into the hands of any individual. It isn't perfect but it's the best option we have. Pretending we would be equally well off with a despot is nonsense.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Even in places that have reasonably good and democratic government, officials take bribes. This happens in Italy, Greece, Spain, India, and many more (almost all of South and Central America). The US and UK are pretty unique in that they aggressively prevent low-level corruption.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Stopping low-level corruption while allowing high-level corruption to pass through (i.e. with high-dollar lobbying) is IMO less democratic than at least letting those with less money buy off at least their small part of government to let them do what the high-dollar people tried to outlaw.
  - bigbacaloa 4y ago
    There is no routine bribe paying in Spain. What occurs is similar to what occurs in the US - bribes to get government contracts. Day to day bribes are unheard of and Spain is no more corrupt than the US in that sense (in fact, probably less so - I know of people having to pay small "fees" at a county sheriff's office to get some routine document processed).
    - jstarfish 4y ago
jancsika 4y ago
> Governments are basically the mob In exactly the same way that monads are like burritos. If thinking that makes it easier to start learning more about the concept, that's great. If instead it stands in for learning, that's bad. On the other hand, I do have this strange desire to learn Spanish by claiming that Spanish is exactly the same as English. Then I'd take all the critiques as edge cases until I'm able to argue the same point in Spanish.
tonmoy 4y ago
I don’t know why people are surprised by this. Sociology has the concept of Monopolization of Violence. In feudal times violence was undertaken by many institutions, but we as a society decided to monopolize it to reduce overall amount of violence a single individual is expected to face
yamtaddle 4y ago
> Governments are basically the mob, except that they figured out that they can exert more control over a longer period of time if they have documents that "constrain" their powers and they offer you a say in some matters. God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Ray Charles is God.
- Eupraxias 4y ago
  Thank you, Hegel.

CabSauce 4y ago

Except for that whole voting thing. The "government", in a functioning democracy, is us.

nelsondev 4y ago

Yup exactly. Our default social contract gives governments a monopoly on violence, of course they’ll use it.

Eupraxias 4y ago
"Right of Force". At some point, freedom is restricted at gunpoint. Government works this way because it is logical that it do so. This is why it is critical to have government established "of, by, and for" the constituency - because even in a best-case scenario, corruption will get in the cracks and make them bigger, etc.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I'm going to expose my political bias here: I think the only way to prevent the corruption and expansion is to keep the government small by limiting the amount of resources that are under its direct control. Just offering "of, by, and for" won't do it if there are millions of people on the payroll. Of course, the Somali government is very small and Somali people are very free, and they aren't doing very well either.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Would you consider the EU to have a large amount of regulations but those countries are generally doing well. I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      > I would say there's a correlation between less government and worse living conditions on average I think this is true, but I don't think the correlation is causal. Rich countries throughout history have tended to grow their governments after becoming rich by adopting social programs and trying to flex their muscle internationally. Most of Europe followed this model, as did the US.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        So post ww2 for the US? We've still one of the best counties to live in. Edit. Are you claiming social programs are created to flex your country? Do you have proof of this?
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        I am not claiming that social programs are a flex. The military is a flex. Post WW2 for the US, post-Victorian era in the UK, post-Napoleon in France, post-Tarism in Russia, post-oil-boom in Scandanavia, etc. Countries with big social programs are still great to live in, but I only mean that the social programs and big government are clearly not part of the reason why those countries became rich. The big government is caused by the wealth, not the other way around.
        themitigating 4y ago
        That doesn't mean a big government isn't responsible for maintaining that wealth which is why I mentioned post ww2 us.
  - 4y ago

bell-cot 4y ago

> I pay the US government protection money at a higher rate than the mob demanded (~35% vs ~15%) Does your mob allow a bunch of deductions, tax dodges, "carried interest" rates, IRA's, and other tricks to cut what the well-to-do actually pay them down to half (or less) of their headline "rate"? EDIT: Examples so far seem to be limited, one-off "if you're patting the right guy's back" situations. Vs. the US gov't allows an unlimited number of sleazy Wall Street types to launder unlimited amounts of money through various tax dodges. This might be good evidence that the mob is smarter about collecting "taxes" than the US gov't...but it sounds like the answer to my question is "basically, no".

jollyllama 4y ago
I would think so. Ex. bar owner gives some free drinks and use of the bar to the mob probably doesn't have to pay the same protection fee.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
My wife's family paid almost nothing to the Italian mafia a hundred years ago because they gave the right people free shoes. I would say "yes." Edit: To be clear, this was not a unique situation. A lot of businesses generally got sweetheart rates from street gangs and mobs because they helped the mob and mob bosses in other ways. The same way Wall Street financiers get a sweetheart deal because they manage the politicians' money and employ their children.
- themitigating 4y ago
  If you have a problem with the Italian Mafia can you take them to court or have your elected representatives do something about it? What a ridiculous comparison
  - notch656a 4y ago
    The average person can do more to influence a local mafia boss than they can to influence the federal government. Hell if you have a few dozen friends with guns you can actually stop the mafia from fucking with you for as long as they stick around. * Edit since I'm spent on replies : Sure you can name that one favela somewhere where a few dozen were beheaded by the mob. The idea isn't that you'll win 100% of the time, the idea is you have some chance. I raise your one unnamed favela with several unnamed Mexican pueblos where cartel was run out by campesinos w/ break-action shotguns and rifles. And the mere fact you actually have a chance at winning is often enough to get a counterparty to back off.

jason-phillips 4y ago

> Governments are basically the mob... Governments are institutions. Considering the anarchic alternative, what we currently have is preferable. People as a group, the actual mob, cannot be trusted. They are irrational and are therefore potentially dangerous. The trick is to safeguard against institutional rot.

bitwize 4y ago
> Governments are institutions. So's the mob. It's why they call it "organized" crime.

yummypaint 4y ago

This takes me back to conversations in the middle school cafeteria. When was the last time you had to bribe a US official to get basic tasks done like register your car? In places that actually have criminal governments this is the norm. Do some research about what it's like in places where there is truly no mechanism for people to remove those in power. Look at russia and the mechanisms by which decisions are made and what means there are for the public to change them, and contrast that with all the NIMBYism which often dominates the process in the US. A democratic government is the means by which the population prevents the monopoly on legal violence from falling permanently into the hands of any individual. It isn't perfect but it's the best option we have. Pretending we would be equally well off with a despot is nonsense.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Even in places that have reasonably good and democratic government, officials take bribes. This happens in Italy, Greece, Spain, India, and many more (almost all of South and Central America). The US and UK are pretty unique in that they aggressively prevent low-level corruption.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Stopping low-level corruption while allowing high-level corruption to pass through (i.e. with high-dollar lobbying) is IMO less democratic than at least letting those with less money buy off at least their small part of government to let them do what the high-dollar people tried to outlaw.
- bigbacaloa 4y ago
  There is no routine bribe paying in Spain. What occurs is similar to what occurs in the US - bribes to get government contracts. Day to day bribes are unheard of and Spain is no more corrupt than the US in that sense (in fact, probably less so - I know of people having to pay small "fees" at a county sheriff's office to get some routine document processed).
  - jstarfish 4y ago

jancsika 4y ago

> Governments are basically the mob In exactly the same way that monads are like burritos. If thinking that makes it easier to start learning more about the concept, that's great. If instead it stands in for learning, that's bad. On the other hand, I do have this strange desire to learn Spanish by claiming that Spanish is exactly the same as English. Then I'd take all the critiques as edge cases until I'm able to argue the same point in Spanish.

tonmoy 4y ago

I don’t know why people are surprised by this. Sociology has the concept of Monopolization of Violence. In feudal times violence was undertaken by many institutions, but we as a society decided to monopolize it to reduce overall amount of violence a single individual is expected to face

yamtaddle 4y ago

> Governments are basically the mob, except that they figured out that they can exert more control over a longer period of time if they have documents that "constrain" their powers and they offer you a say in some matters. God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Ray Charles is God.

Eupraxias 4y ago
Thank you, Hegel.