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> It wasn't until it was being actively discussed on the Tech Nottingham Slack that I realised it could have been illegal to talk about How can we move to a so

> It wasn't until it was being actively discussed on the Tech Nottingham Slack that I realised it could have been illegal to talk about How can we move to a society where talking about compensation isn’t illegal?

ok_dad 4y ago
It’s very specifically legal in the USA to talk about your own compensation.
mrweasel 4y ago
He does say that it "could have been", but it turns out it's fine. It depends on where you're based, but I doubt that it's actually illegal in most countries. I know that I'm legally allow to tell people how much I make. It is kinda interesting when your open about your own salary, but your coworkers aren't. Apparently I made less that other in the same position at my previous job, I was just never told by how much.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  I'd be astonished if it was criminal-law illegal in any country. But in eg. India, it's pretty common to sign an NDA covering your own salary, meaning that sharing it externally could get you sued.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
I would prefer to keep my compensation private. I currently work for a smaller private company. It doesn't pay me as much as a large corporation in the industry. Were my compensation public, I would forfeit the option to increase it significantly again. I work here because I live next door, like the people and the work environment. It is worth it to me. Public registers would not reflect these choices. Otherwise I would need to keep up appearances and optimise my compensation. I like to keep these options. Not relevant in Norway because everyone earns a lot. Sweden seems to be a country with significant social pressure, not really a role model for me. That said, under no circumstances should it be illegal to talk about your compensation. Any company that forbids you to do so probably has some dark secrets here.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Is your argument that if you get paid too little and this is public, then your next gig won't pay you more because they know this? If so, can you expand a little on why that would be the case?
  - beambot 4y ago
    Anchoring: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias)
    - FrankyHollywood 4y ago
      oh wow, it's a bit off-topic, but I'm on a desktop now and the mobile view of Wikipedia looks so much better, never realized!
  - technion 4y ago
    This is pretty consistent with communication most people get from recruiters: tell me your salary so we can know what you are worth. Back home I have a few screenshots of LinkedIn messages that opened conversations asking for screenshots of pay slips so they could verify. Not suggesting I agree with the practice of course.
    - sgtnoodle 4y ago
      You don't have to comply with their request. If it's for a company you're interested in, you can say no while also being polite, i.e. "Let's not worry about compensation until we're sure it's a good fit."
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      To be fair, the salary is relevant to recruiters for their compensation. For lower wages it often isn't worth it for them to recruit people. It isn't necessarily a judgement of you, although yes, overall your income is.
TamDenholm 4y ago
When they say illegal, they probably mean breach of contract, not illegal in terms of criminal law. Also just because something is in a contract, doesnt make it lawful or even actionable.
avianlyric 4y ago
It isn’t illegal. The right to discuss your pay publicly, with anyone, is enshrined in British law. Any contract terms to the contrary are invalid, and actions taken against you for sharing are illegal, and UK employment tribunals take a very dim view of employer misbehaviour.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
thraxil 4y ago
Likely not what's being discussed in the article here, but I used to be active on a developer mailing list where discussion of pricing/hourly rates/etc. was forbidden because there were a lot of contractors/freelancers working in relatively narrow spaces and some jurisdictions could consider it a form of price fixing. Essentially, imagine if all the experts on some particular niche technology sat down and said "we all are going to charge at least $X/hour". Doing that explicitly is illegal. And in a forum related to some profession, having conversations about "how much should I charge for X?" or "how much do you all charge for X?" can quickly run into legal grey areas. Discussing salary probably is safe (but IANAL) but you do have to be careful if it's a conversation about rates happening between competitors in a market.
- grepfru_it 4y ago
  Dad took a photography consulting class and they instructed the whole class to charge market rates and to not cheapen the industry as a whole by starting a bidding war to the bottom. Felt wrong but my dad finally started charging competitively so I didn’t blink twice
chrismcb 4y ago
Move to America... Or at least bake free speech above being offended.
pandaman 4y ago
We are already in such a society. Secrecy is an option in your employment negotiation. If you want to talk about your salary - go ahead and make it a part of your employment agreement. If others don't want to talk about their salary and instead negotiate for something else like a higher salary or more time off it's their prerogative too.

ok_dad 4y ago

It’s very specifically legal in the USA to talk about your own compensation.

mrweasel 4y ago

He does say that it "could have been", but it turns out it's fine. It depends on where you're based, but I doubt that it's actually illegal in most countries. I know that I'm legally allow to tell people how much I make. It is kinda interesting when your open about your own salary, but your coworkers aren't. Apparently I made less that other in the same position at my previous job, I was just never told by how much.

rippercushions 4y ago
I'd be astonished if it was criminal-law illegal in any country. But in eg. India, it's pretty common to sign an NDA covering your own salary, meaning that sharing it externally could get you sued.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

I would prefer to keep my compensation private. I currently work for a smaller private company. It doesn't pay me as much as a large corporation in the industry. Were my compensation public, I would forfeit the option to increase it significantly again. I work here because I live next door, like the people and the work environment. It is worth it to me. Public registers would not reflect these choices. Otherwise I would need to keep up appearances and optimise my compensation. I like to keep these options. Not relevant in Norway because everyone earns a lot. Sweden seems to be a country with significant social pressure, not really a role model for me. That said, under no circumstances should it be illegal to talk about your compensation. Any company that forbids you to do so probably has some dark secrets here.

cinntaile 4y ago
Is your argument that if you get paid too little and this is public, then your next gig won't pay you more because they know this? If so, can you expand a little on why that would be the case?
- beambot 4y ago
  Anchoring: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias)
  - FrankyHollywood 4y ago
    oh wow, it's a bit off-topic, but I'm on a desktop now and the mobile view of Wikipedia looks so much better, never realized!
- technion 4y ago
  This is pretty consistent with communication most people get from recruiters: tell me your salary so we can know what you are worth. Back home I have a few screenshots of LinkedIn messages that opened conversations asking for screenshots of pay slips so they could verify. Not suggesting I agree with the practice of course.
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    You don't have to comply with their request. If it's for a company you're interested in, you can say no while also being polite, i.e. "Let's not worry about compensation until we're sure it's a good fit."
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    To be fair, the salary is relevant to recruiters for their compensation. For lower wages it often isn't worth it for them to recruit people. It isn't necessarily a judgement of you, although yes, overall your income is.

TamDenholm 4y ago

When they say illegal, they probably mean breach of contract, not illegal in terms of criminal law. Also just because something is in a contract, doesnt make it lawful or even actionable.

avianlyric 4y ago

It isn’t illegal. The right to discuss your pay publicly, with anyone, is enshrined in British law. Any contract terms to the contrary are invalid, and actions taken against you for sharing are illegal, and UK employment tribunals take a very dim view of employer misbehaviour.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

thraxil 4y ago

Likely not what's being discussed in the article here, but I used to be active on a developer mailing list where discussion of pricing/hourly rates/etc. was forbidden because there were a lot of contractors/freelancers working in relatively narrow spaces and some jurisdictions could consider it a form of price fixing. Essentially, imagine if all the experts on some particular niche technology sat down and said "we all are going to charge at least $X/hour". Doing that explicitly is illegal. And in a forum related to some profession, having conversations about "how much should I charge for X?" or "how much do you all charge for X?" can quickly run into legal grey areas. Discussing salary probably is safe (but IANAL) but you do have to be careful if it's a conversation about rates happening between competitors in a market.

grepfru_it 4y ago
Dad took a photography consulting class and they instructed the whole class to charge market rates and to not cheapen the industry as a whole by starting a bidding war to the bottom. Felt wrong but my dad finally started charging competitively so I didn’t blink twice

chrismcb 4y ago

Move to America... Or at least bake free speech above being offended.

pandaman 4y ago

We are already in such a society. Secrecy is an option in your employment negotiation. If you want to talk about your salary - go ahead and make it a part of your employment agreement. If others don't want to talk about their salary and instead negotiate for something else like a higher salary or more time off it's their prerogative too.