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Reducing everyone to a list of past experience and skills would produce knock-on effects such as preferring people with specific existing experience over talent

Reducing everyone to a list of past experience and skills would produce knock-on effects such as preferring people with specific existing experience over talented beginners. And in an industry with an extensive, existing problem of discrimination you'd just be maintaining the status quo. It's also essentially impossible to anonymize resumes in a way that would provide meaningful distinction between people. Resume design, for instance, is a fairly strong signal for how a developer might think, or their personal attention to detail and craftsmanship. You'd be amazed how often we don't even need to read a resume to tell whether someone worth interviewing.

Manuel_D 4y ago
But people's work history is visible regardless of whether their resume is anonymized. If what you wrote in your previous comment is true, then anonymizing resumes should be strictly better for black applicants. Sure, it won't "solve" disparities in past work experience. But non-anonymous resumes still have that disparity and racial discrimination - anonymous resumes at least eliminate the latter. So if what you wrote about in your previous comment is true, companies should see some increases in hiring rates among black applicants under an anonymous hiring regime. More broadly, I think you're confusing "non-discriminatory" with "equal chances". A blind audition doesn't mean all participants have equal chances of success. Someone who's been playing the violent for 25 years is probably going to have a better shot than someone who has only a few years of experience - and the lattice has better chances than me, who has zero experience. The fact that we have unequal chances of landing a spot in the orchestra isn't evidence of discrimnation. It's the system working as intended: the more skilled musician has greater chances of getting a spot, regardless of factors like race, gender, etc. In the context of tech hiring, the purpose of the hiring process is to confer greater chances of success for candidates with relevant skills and ability. If someone is hiring for a position demanding C++ experience, then candidates who are C++ wizards are more likely to succeed at this job opening than people who occasionally dabble in C++.
- etchalon 4y ago
  First, anonymized resumes would not create increased in hiring rates. It might increase the candidate pool through the screen, but behold, racial discrimination is a function at every stage of the interview process. I am not confusing "non-discriminatory" with "equal chances". I have no idea why anyone would. Obviously, a person with 12 years experience coding in a specific language or stack would be preferable to hire, depending on budget, to someone with none. That is not the issue any of these measures address, or even should address. No one is arguing we should be hiring people with a GED as physicians because they're "diverse". You're arguing at a straw man.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    With Zoom interviews, it's possible to anonymize candidates throughout every stage of the interview process. Anonymous resumes, anonymous interviews. This would entirely eliminate racial, or gender, discrimination.
    - etchalon 4y ago
      That would be true if people didn't sound different.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        You can alter the audio signal to mask gender: https://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-mask-gender-in-technical-interviews-heres-what-happened/ https://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-ma... Similar tech could be used to mask accents. I suspect the real reason people are so hesitant to anonymize interviews is that the disparities will persist - or even grow larger - and it'll be more difficult to ascribe it to racism or sexism.
        etchalon 4y ago
        Accent and pitch are not the only ways in which people sound different. If technology could be developed which masked pitch, accent, idioms, patterns and approach, I suspect it would change hiring rates. I suspect the reason you think such technology wouldn’t improve the situation is because you’re a bigot.
nonethewiser 4y ago
> preferring people with specific existing experience over talented beginners. Well that sure beats institutionalized racism
- etchalon 4y ago
  It just replaces one problem with a different one, or, worse, will mask the actual problem through "facially neutral" policies that are anything but.

Manuel_D 4y ago

But people's work history is visible regardless of whether their resume is anonymized. If what you wrote in your previous comment is true, then anonymizing resumes should be strictly better for black applicants. Sure, it won't "solve" disparities in past work experience. But non-anonymous resumes still have that disparity and racial discrimination - anonymous resumes at least eliminate the latter. So if what you wrote about in your previous comment is true, companies should see some increases in hiring rates among black applicants under an anonymous hiring regime. More broadly, I think you're confusing "non-discriminatory" with "equal chances". A blind audition doesn't mean all participants have equal chances of success. Someone who's been playing the violent for 25 years is probably going to have a better shot than someone who has only a few years of experience - and the lattice has better chances than me, who has zero experience. The fact that we have unequal chances of landing a spot in the orchestra isn't evidence of discrimnation. It's the system working as intended: the more skilled musician has greater chances of getting a spot, regardless of factors like race, gender, etc. In the context of tech hiring, the purpose of the hiring process is to confer greater chances of success for candidates with relevant skills and ability. If someone is hiring for a position demanding C++ experience, then candidates who are C++ wizards are more likely to succeed at this job opening than people who occasionally dabble in C++.

etchalon 4y ago
First, anonymized resumes would not create increased in hiring rates. It might increase the candidate pool through the screen, but behold, racial discrimination is a function at every stage of the interview process. I am not confusing "non-discriminatory" with "equal chances". I have no idea why anyone would. Obviously, a person with 12 years experience coding in a specific language or stack would be preferable to hire, depending on budget, to someone with none. That is not the issue any of these measures address, or even should address. No one is arguing we should be hiring people with a GED as physicians because they're "diverse". You're arguing at a straw man.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  With Zoom interviews, it's possible to anonymize candidates throughout every stage of the interview process. Anonymous resumes, anonymous interviews. This would entirely eliminate racial, or gender, discrimination.
  - etchalon 4y ago
    That would be true if people didn't sound different.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      You can alter the audio signal to mask gender: https://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-mask-gender-in-technical-interviews-heres-what-happened/ https://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-ma... Similar tech could be used to mask accents. I suspect the real reason people are so hesitant to anonymize interviews is that the disparities will persist - or even grow larger - and it'll be more difficult to ascribe it to racism or sexism.
      - etchalon 4y ago
        Accent and pitch are not the only ways in which people sound different. If technology could be developed which masked pitch, accent, idioms, patterns and approach, I suspect it would change hiring rates. I suspect the reason you think such technology wouldn’t improve the situation is because you’re a bigot.

nonethewiser 4y ago

> preferring people with specific existing experience over talented beginners. Well that sure beats institutionalized racism

etchalon 4y ago
It just replaces one problem with a different one, or, worse, will mask the actual problem through "facially neutral" policies that are anything but.