4 ms·

> the male role model "grit and hard work" model doesn't convey to men that you can lean on others. Perhaps that hasn't been portrayed in a while, but then aga

> the male role model "grit and hard work" model doesn't convey to men that you can lean on others. Perhaps that hasn't been portrayed in a while, but then again, when was the last time men and boys actually had a role model and one with actual "grit"? Yes, we have male protagonists, and ones with substantial authority and muscle growth, but it's been a long time since I've actually seen a legit role model. The reason you can't easily convey a value about depending on others is that modern storytelling requires that every character must be significantly flawed. Having one character lean on others only is called for if that creates an opportunity where said character can be betrayed, which is useful for dramatic purposes. Look at any plot from a movie before the 2000's that's focused on a strong male character. Usually there's a subplot where he's got to rely on some other guy or inspire other men to take action when they otherwise wouldn't. > However, there are so many more male role models with different ways to grow and improve, whereas women are really treated as not needing to. This is reality. You are describing the quintessential male experience. Having to start with nothing and work your way up (or fail) is what it is to be a man. We are not told we are handsome or attractive by anyone but our mother unless we find a partner who can express that or if we are a 9 or above on the decile scale. Women aren't as greatly valued for their problem solving capability as they are for their beauty and reproductive capability. That's just how it is based on how the sexes differ, and it isn't even something that necessarily has to be fixed. People who deviate from the norm shouldn't be forced into roles that don't suit them as individuals, and those who it a norm shouldn't have to give up who they are in order to satisfy the minority.

sacrosancty 4y ago
> This is reality. Indeed and it goes further than mere compliments. Women actually don't need to be successful at a career or be resilient to failures or "strong" - they can still have a good life with a family and be wealthy by being supported by a successful man. Men typically can't do that so they need all this grit and self-determination. All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  It depends on the individual and what one defines as a "career". Being an excellent spouse, mother, and homemaker are a form of career. It's a career that countless women over millennia gravitated to because they are the bearers of children, have less body strength on average, are vulnerable for 9 months at a time, and have far fewer ovum than there are available sperm. Some women will be on either end of the bell curve, but to be closer to the middle of the bell curve is nothing to be ashamed of. Instructing women to emulate everything typical of men is to indoctrinate them into self denial. Bearing and raising children and being a supportive spouse takes a form of grit all of its own. It's just a type of grit where the building of self-worth isn't required. I'm reminded of a time I was in a circle of people from various backgrounds, and the person in the middle of the circle asked the women to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are pretty by anyone besides their mother. Every single one of them raised their hands, even the ones who weren't conventionally attractive. The men were then asked to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are handsome by anyone besides their mother. Not a single man in the circle raised his hand, and this group included a few particularly popular individuals with the women in this cohort. That experience isn't representative of everyone, but it told me a lot. > All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in. Choosing a role in life is efficient. Spending one's entire life without learning the role one is suited for usually means a lot of wasted time and effort. Yet this is antithetical to what we tell young people today, which is that what is most important is who they are in the present as individuals. The individual is important, but individuality is overrated because everyone is an individual, more or less, and individuality provides no structure or framework. Past societies figured this out because life is simply too short to blow a bunch of time figuring things out from scratch. Today, we have longer life expectency and automation has made everyday life very easy, so we've fooled ourselves into thinking that it is our individuality that we should be exploring to the exclusion of selecting roles that take the greater society into consideration.
  - sacrosancty 4y ago
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
Just the other day I rewatched Fast and Furious 9, with an ensemble cast containing 4 male role models with "grit" who frequently rely on and inspire each other. Before that I watched Dune which has a couple, Shang-Chi which has one, and Doctor Strange which has two. It seems to me that male role models are as common as ever, and it's just become unfashionable in some circles to acknowledge them.
- nicbou 4y ago
  I'd argue that we're in a golden age of role models. There's no longer just Rambo McBiceps, but also kind and sensitive male characters. The sitcom dad is slowly dying off, and we get to see competent, loving fathers. Gay characters are treated with more respect and nuance; they're no longer a punchline. It's quite nice all around.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    > sitcom dad is slowly dying off Thank goodness. Hopefully the commercial break dad will die off next, though I see that caricature having more staying power. > Gay characters are treated with more respect and nuance; they're no longer a punchline. They are treated with more respect, yes, but I wouldn't say they are no longer a punchline entirely. They're still very much present in many current storylines because of how different they're perceived to be. Homosexual interaction on-screen is and probably always will be a sort of spectacle for the general audience. It's an improvement over gay character merely being present to be flamboyant, but I don't think their current inception in entertainment is totally flattering. > There's no longer just Rambo McBiceps There's no longer "Rambo McBiceps" at all, and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. A variety of role models would be better than only having role models that are of no threat to the establishment.
    - nicbou 4y ago
      There is still Rambo McBiceps. It's the character who literally punches through every problem. Baaghi 1, 2, and 3 have pushed this character trope to the breaking point, and it's hilarious. I'm happy that we now have male lead who are weak, yet still win. Emmett in the Lego movie, Rango, the guy from Fantastic Beasts. They don't win by becoming more violent, but by providing an alternative to violence. Lord of the Rings is also a treasure trove of great male role models.
BeefWellington 4y ago
> Yes, we have male protagonists, and ones with substantial authority and muscle growth, but it's been a long time since I've actually seen a legit role model. What qualities do you consider "legit" in this regard?

sacrosancty 4y ago

> This is reality. Indeed and it goes further than mere compliments. Women actually don't need to be successful at a career or be resilient to failures or "strong" - they can still have a good life with a family and be wealthy by being supported by a successful man. Men typically can't do that so they need all this grit and self-determination. All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in.

ravenstine 4y ago
It depends on the individual and what one defines as a "career". Being an excellent spouse, mother, and homemaker are a form of career. It's a career that countless women over millennia gravitated to because they are the bearers of children, have less body strength on average, are vulnerable for 9 months at a time, and have far fewer ovum than there are available sperm. Some women will be on either end of the bell curve, but to be closer to the middle of the bell curve is nothing to be ashamed of. Instructing women to emulate everything typical of men is to indoctrinate them into self denial. Bearing and raising children and being a supportive spouse takes a form of grit all of its own. It's just a type of grit where the building of self-worth isn't required. I'm reminded of a time I was in a circle of people from various backgrounds, and the person in the middle of the circle asked the women to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are pretty by anyone besides their mother. Every single one of them raised their hands, even the ones who weren't conventionally attractive. The men were then asked to raise their hands if they've ever been told they are handsome by anyone besides their mother. Not a single man in the circle raised his hand, and this group included a few particularly popular individuals with the women in this cohort. That experience isn't representative of everyone, but it told me a lot. > All that role model and life advice stuff isn't just made up for no reason, it's there to help people get a good life for themselves in the world that they exist in. Choosing a role in life is efficient. Spending one's entire life without learning the role one is suited for usually means a lot of wasted time and effort. Yet this is antithetical to what we tell young people today, which is that what is most important is who they are in the present as individuals. The individual is important, but individuality is overrated because everyone is an individual, more or less, and individuality provides no structure or framework. Past societies figured this out because life is simply too short to blow a bunch of time figuring things out from scratch. Today, we have longer life expectency and automation has made everyday life very easy, so we've fooled ourselves into thinking that it is our individuality that we should be exploring to the exclusion of selecting roles that take the greater society into consideration.
- sacrosancty 4y ago

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago

Just the other day I rewatched Fast and Furious 9, with an ensemble cast containing 4 male role models with "grit" who frequently rely on and inspire each other. Before that I watched Dune which has a couple, Shang-Chi which has one, and Doctor Strange which has two. It seems to me that male role models are as common as ever, and it's just become unfashionable in some circles to acknowledge them.

nicbou 4y ago
I'd argue that we're in a golden age of role models. There's no longer just Rambo McBiceps, but also kind and sensitive male characters. The sitcom dad is slowly dying off, and we get to see competent, loving fathers. Gay characters are treated with more respect and nuance; they're no longer a punchline. It's quite nice all around.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  > sitcom dad is slowly dying off Thank goodness. Hopefully the commercial break dad will die off next, though I see that caricature having more staying power. > Gay characters are treated with more respect and nuance; they're no longer a punchline. They are treated with more respect, yes, but I wouldn't say they are no longer a punchline entirely. They're still very much present in many current storylines because of how different they're perceived to be. Homosexual interaction on-screen is and probably always will be a sort of spectacle for the general audience. It's an improvement over gay character merely being present to be flamboyant, but I don't think their current inception in entertainment is totally flattering. > There's no longer just Rambo McBiceps There's no longer "Rambo McBiceps" at all, and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. A variety of role models would be better than only having role models that are of no threat to the establishment.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    There is still Rambo McBiceps. It's the character who literally punches through every problem. Baaghi 1, 2, and 3 have pushed this character trope to the breaking point, and it's hilarious. I'm happy that we now have male lead who are weak, yet still win. Emmett in the Lego movie, Rango, the guy from Fantastic Beasts. They don't win by becoming more violent, but by providing an alternative to violence. Lord of the Rings is also a treasure trove of great male role models.

BeefWellington 4y ago

> Yes, we have male protagonists, and ones with substantial authority and muscle growth, but it's been a long time since I've actually seen a legit role model. What qualities do you consider "legit" in this regard?