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> And men care about both money and technical things much more than women Stop this. These arguments are not only making massive assumptions but they are histo

> And men care about both money and technical things much more than women Stop this. These arguments are not only making massive assumptions but they are historically and factually wrong. In the history of computing and computer science women formed a large chunk of computer science graduates and programmers. This decline started in 1984 when the culture and advertising shifted to market computers and such as being for boys. They were the pioneers of the computer science world and in an era where things were incredibly technical without the resources we take for granted.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>they are historically and factually wrong No, the money part is pretty accurate historically. Almost every field with high income historically attracted far more men than women once it became public knowledge. Job status and money are very disproportionately more important to men.
- peter422 4y ago
  Which is why doctors and lawyers, two of the historically most highly paid and high status jobs, now graduate more women than men. Or wait a second, I guess it isn't public knowledge doctors make a lot of money.
  - dijit 4y ago
    This is overly hostile and I don't really want to engage with it because of that. To answer the question as coldly as I can: 1) Women are graduating from nearly all University programmes more than men.[0] 2) The role of Doctor is not as highly paid or prestigious as it used to be, at least in Europe.[1] [0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behin... [1]: https://www.paragona.com/healthcare-jobseekers/where-would-you-like-to-work/sweden/opportunities https://www.paragona.com/healthcare-jobseekers/where-would-y... ; cites a 70k average where a project manager will make an average of 99k: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-project-manager-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1136_KO10,25.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-project-manager...
    - peter422 4y ago
      - dijit 4y ago
        Actually it seems that the evidence is against you. In the most unequal societies (Russia[0], India[1]) the tech industry is much closer to gender parity than in the west. Sweden has gone further than any other nation on earth to be equitable across gendered lines yet remains extremely unequal in the actual working model. (In my former employer 14% of applicants were women, yet they constitute 20% of employed staff due to excessive D&I initiatives). I should be self interested, we’re talking about competition for work. It would be death to roll over. Jobs are absolutely zero sum- However my argument is backed by statistics, so I think you need to face the reality in front of you. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 [1]: https://go.451research.com/women-in-tech-india-employment-trends.html https://go.451research.com/women-in-tech-india-employment-tr...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    This is not the gotcha you think it is. Sibling already pointed some things out. Specifically for doctors, go ahead and look up what specializations men go into primarily and what specializations women go into primarily. The only high paying one I noticed being particularly female-dominated is dermatology, and it's not that much of a difference. The male-dominated specialties tend to have far more high earning specializations, and the ratios are far more skewed too. As for lawyers, I can't speak except for the fact lawyers work more akin to salesmen and make a lot of money based on performance, and once again, historically speaking, men have always dominated on anything performance-based. Law is an exception, and it's an extremely poor one at that. As for both, both medicine / biomedical sciences and law pale in comparison to every other field known to both pay well and do so with high security still being largely in favor of men, whereas fields with low pays and low security tend to be dominated by women. Most STEM fields women dominate aren't known for paying well compared to the ones men dominate. Comparing those fields to social sciences is a no-brainer. All of this still excludes entrepreneurship and high-paying blue collar work still being dominated by men. None of this exempts the fact historically, women have never chased money through career nearly as much as men, and have always placed far higher value on a man's status than vice versa. There are cultural reasons why this has changed, and none of those reasons are necessarily pointing towards improvements. We can open this entire can of worms if you so desire, but it will go far too off-topic for this.
    - etchalon 4y ago
      It has not occurred to you that the historical data shows evidence of bias instead of evidence of choice and that's fascinating.
      - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        Oh please, do yourself a favor and perform a very simple litmus test. Ask how many men are willing to date homeless women and vice versa. What's fascinating is how people are trying to avoid talking about the obvious motivator for men not present in women, and how the slow death of that motivator is affecting things. Take a look in the mirror before trying to subtly call someone ignorant, would you?
- dmarcos 4y ago
  Men behavior is at least partially shaped by dating dynamics. Women tend to prefer partners with higher social and economic status than themselves. Men care less. Search term hypergamy edit: typo
badpun 4y ago
Both facts that, on average, women are less interested in things (and more interested in people) and also women, on average, are less interested in money, have a solid backing in research. They're not factually wrong. The field of software business changed rapidly in the 80s. It shifted from a fairly boring and low-paying thing, into an unpleasant and high-pressure field where fortunes were made, even for regular employees (the stock options lottery). Salaries also went way up. It was only natural that men became much more interested in it at that point, and women's interest waned (they're far less inclined to kill themselves in a pointless job to get that $500k salary).
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  That's also not true regarding the history of the software field. The explosion in engineer salaries is relatively recent. It was only post-2000s when it became a very lucrative field for engineers and by that point the percentage of women developers had dropped off. This was due to both companies shifting hiring strategies to focus specifically on hiring men as well a shift in advertising for home computers and deriding women.
  - badpun 4y ago
    Can you point me to your sources on companies shifting hiring strategies to focus specifically on hiring men? It's the first time I'm hearing about this.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      In the '60s the common way programmers were interviewed were through aptitude tests. The standard at the time was the IBM Programmer Aptitude Test, but in the 70s and 80s that shifted to a new personality profile that inherently favored men [1] [2] [3] by Cannon and Perry. This became the new institutional standard and was used to determine who was a 'viable' programmer or not. This is where the traditional 'programmers are anti-social and hate people' thing came from and took root. In turn, advertising became male-focused, men were given more opportunity to become programmers and that's how the industry shifted. There's a bunch of very blatant advertising in the late-70s and early-80s that shows how this shifted. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/how-bias-pushed-the-computer-girls-out-of-tech-2018-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/how-bias-pushed-the-compu... [2] https://www.thoughtworks.com/insights/blog/born-it-how-image-software-developers-came-about https://www.thoughtworks.com/insights/blog/born-it-how-image... [3] https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-...
nonethewiser 4y ago
Guess women are just easily manipulated by the evil Big Computer Science Lobbyists.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>they are historically and factually wrong No, the money part is pretty accurate historically. Almost every field with high income historically attracted far more men than women once it became public knowledge. Job status and money are very disproportionately more important to men.

peter422 4y ago
Which is why doctors and lawyers, two of the historically most highly paid and high status jobs, now graduate more women than men. Or wait a second, I guess it isn't public knowledge doctors make a lot of money.
- dijit 4y ago
  This is overly hostile and I don't really want to engage with it because of that. To answer the question as coldly as I can: 1) Women are graduating from nearly all University programmes more than men.[0] 2) The role of Doctor is not as highly paid or prestigious as it used to be, at least in Europe.[1] [0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behin... [1]: https://www.paragona.com/healthcare-jobseekers/where-would-you-like-to-work/sweden/opportunities https://www.paragona.com/healthcare-jobseekers/where-would-y... ; cites a 70k average where a project manager will make an average of 99k: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-project-manager-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1136_KO10,25.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-project-manager...
  - peter422 4y ago
    - dijit 4y ago
      Actually it seems that the evidence is against you. In the most unequal societies (Russia[0], India[1]) the tech industry is much closer to gender parity than in the west. Sweden has gone further than any other nation on earth to be equitable across gendered lines yet remains extremely unequal in the actual working model. (In my former employer 14% of applicants were women, yet they constitute 20% of employed staff due to excessive D&I initiatives). I should be self interested, we’re talking about competition for work. It would be death to roll over. Jobs are absolutely zero sum- However my argument is backed by statistics, so I think you need to face the reality in front of you. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 [1]: https://go.451research.com/women-in-tech-india-employment-trends.html https://go.451research.com/women-in-tech-india-employment-tr...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  This is not the gotcha you think it is. Sibling already pointed some things out. Specifically for doctors, go ahead and look up what specializations men go into primarily and what specializations women go into primarily. The only high paying one I noticed being particularly female-dominated is dermatology, and it's not that much of a difference. The male-dominated specialties tend to have far more high earning specializations, and the ratios are far more skewed too. As for lawyers, I can't speak except for the fact lawyers work more akin to salesmen and make a lot of money based on performance, and once again, historically speaking, men have always dominated on anything performance-based. Law is an exception, and it's an extremely poor one at that. As for both, both medicine / biomedical sciences and law pale in comparison to every other field known to both pay well and do so with high security still being largely in favor of men, whereas fields with low pays and low security tend to be dominated by women. Most STEM fields women dominate aren't known for paying well compared to the ones men dominate. Comparing those fields to social sciences is a no-brainer. All of this still excludes entrepreneurship and high-paying blue collar work still being dominated by men. None of this exempts the fact historically, women have never chased money through career nearly as much as men, and have always placed far higher value on a man's status than vice versa. There are cultural reasons why this has changed, and none of those reasons are necessarily pointing towards improvements. We can open this entire can of worms if you so desire, but it will go far too off-topic for this.
  - etchalon 4y ago
    It has not occurred to you that the historical data shows evidence of bias instead of evidence of choice and that's fascinating.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      Oh please, do yourself a favor and perform a very simple litmus test. Ask how many men are willing to date homeless women and vice versa. What's fascinating is how people are trying to avoid talking about the obvious motivator for men not present in women, and how the slow death of that motivator is affecting things. Take a look in the mirror before trying to subtly call someone ignorant, would you?
dmarcos 4y ago
Men behavior is at least partially shaped by dating dynamics. Women tend to prefer partners with higher social and economic status than themselves. Men care less. Search term hypergamy edit: typo

badpun 4y ago

Both facts that, on average, women are less interested in things (and more interested in people) and also women, on average, are less interested in money, have a solid backing in research. They're not factually wrong. The field of software business changed rapidly in the 80s. It shifted from a fairly boring and low-paying thing, into an unpleasant and high-pressure field where fortunes were made, even for regular employees (the stock options lottery). Salaries also went way up. It was only natural that men became much more interested in it at that point, and women's interest waned (they're far less inclined to kill themselves in a pointless job to get that $500k salary).

fzeroracer 4y ago
That's also not true regarding the history of the software field. The explosion in engineer salaries is relatively recent. It was only post-2000s when it became a very lucrative field for engineers and by that point the percentage of women developers had dropped off. This was due to both companies shifting hiring strategies to focus specifically on hiring men as well a shift in advertising for home computers and deriding women.
- badpun 4y ago
  Can you point me to your sources on companies shifting hiring strategies to focus specifically on hiring men? It's the first time I'm hearing about this.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    In the '60s the common way programmers were interviewed were through aptitude tests. The standard at the time was the IBM Programmer Aptitude Test, but in the 70s and 80s that shifted to a new personality profile that inherently favored men [1] [2] [3] by Cannon and Perry. This became the new institutional standard and was used to determine who was a 'viable' programmer or not. This is where the traditional 'programmers are anti-social and hate people' thing came from and took root. In turn, advertising became male-focused, men were given more opportunity to become programmers and that's how the industry shifted. There's a bunch of very blatant advertising in the late-70s and early-80s that shows how this shifted. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/how-bias-pushed-the-computer-girls-out-of-tech-2018-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/sc/how-bias-pushed-the-compu... [2] https://www.thoughtworks.com/insights/blog/born-it-how-image-software-developers-came-about https://www.thoughtworks.com/insights/blog/born-it-how-image... [3] https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-...

nonethewiser 4y ago

Guess women are just easily manipulated by the evil Big Computer Science Lobbyists.