6 ms·

The author also ignores the obvious fact that only 1% of candidates being "diverse" is the root problem being addressed...

by tqi 4y ago

badpun 4y ago
Not really, it's basically circular. The selection of who does and who doesn't belong to a "diverse" category is based on how frequent these people happen to be in the population (for example, Asians men are not "diverse", because there's plenty of them in tech - but Asian women are, because they're far less frequent). So, by definition, the "diverse" candidates will always be a minority. It can't be fixed. Even if we somehow reach perfect parity according to existing criteria (no one category is less frequent than the other, so no category can be chosen as the new "diverse" one), new dimensions of oppression can always be invented (e.g. tall/short, rich parents/poor parents etc.) or just created as intersections of existing ones. The game will never end.
- peter422 4y ago
  My CS classes in college were literally 98% male and 98% white and Asian. You are talking about a slippery slope to distract from the obvious existing problem. There might be a slippery slope in the future, I agree, but that doesn't mean there isn't an active problem now!
  - badpun 4y ago
    Why is that a problem exactly? What problem is that causing to society? Mind you, there's plenty of women in tech (and often in business or managerial positions, directing those white and asian programmers), they just don't go through the CS degree. I personally don't blame them, my CS degree at least was really super boring and mostly just a way to get an easy and well paying job. And men care about both money and technical things much more than women, so it's natural than they flock to CS.
    - peter422 4y ago
      And Men obviously care about being doctors and lawyers more than women, too, of course for the same reasons. 60 years ago >90% of lawyers and doctors were Men and because the desire to be a doctor or a lawyer is mostly dictated by a person's gender those statistics haven't changed at all!
      - badpun 4y ago
        > And Men obviously care about being doctors and lawyers more than women, too, of course for the same reasons. ... Yes? At least in countries such as US, where these people in those professions can make large amounts of money. In my country (Poland), up to very recently, doctors were poorly paid and thus large number of doctors were women. > 60 years ago >90% of lawyers and doctors were Men and because the desire to be a doctor or a lawyer is mostly dictated by a person's gender those statistics haven't changed at all! It isn't as clear cut as with the CS, because women (on average) may be put off by the high competetiveness and poor life quality of law/medicine, but they are also drawn (on average) by the fact that in those fields you work with people. Whereas, in CS degree, there's literally nothing for them (on average).
      - invalidOrTaken 4y ago
        The Last Psychiatrist: https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/01/no_self-respecting_woman_would.html https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/01/no_self-respecting_w... >I don't want to be cynical, but boy oh boy is it hard not to observe that at the very moment in our history when we have the most women in the Senate, Congress is perceived to be pathetic, bickering, easily manipulated and powerless, and I'll risk the blowback and say that those are all stereotypes of women. Easy, HuffPo, I know it's not causal, I am saying the reverse: that if some field keeps the trappings of power but loses actual power, women enter it in droves and men abandon it like the Roanoke Colony. Again we must ask the question: if power seeking men aren't running for Senate, where did they go? Meanwhile all the lobbyists and Wall Street bankers are men, isn't that odd?
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      > And men care about both money and technical things much more than women Stop this. These arguments are not only making massive assumptions but they are historically and factually wrong. In the history of computing and computer science women formed a large chunk of computer science graduates and programmers. This decline started in 1984 when the culture and advertising shifted to market computers and such as being for boys. They were the pioneers of the computer science world and in an era where things were incredibly technical without the resources we take for granted.
  - origin_path 4y ago
    That's not a problem unless you are either racist or sexist, in which case a preference for people based on their race or sex would make it a problem. But for everyone else, it's just whatever it is.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    >My CS classes in college were literally 98% male and 98% white and Asian. > You are talking about a slippery slope to distract from the obvious existing problem. I dont see a problem.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > My CS classes in college were literally 98% male and 98% white and Asian. Most certainly. Anyone else will get paid to learn CS on the job so it would be rather silly of them to spend their own dime in college. There is no free lunch here. If you strive for diversity in the workplace it is going to disappear from other places.
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  Does it have to? Humans are really bad at being rational actors. The fact that some groups are less represented is a source of bias on its own. They can still be sorted out if they don't meet hiring standards in the second step, where unconscious bias is a lot less likely to affect a person that can demonstrate their skills.

The author also ignores the obvious fact that only 1% of candidates being "diverse" is the root problem being addressed...

by tqi 4y ago

The author also ignores the obvious fact that only 1% of candidates being "diverse" is the root problem being addressed...

badpun 4y ago

Not really, it's basically circular. The selection of who does and who doesn't belong to a "diverse" category is based on how frequent these people happen to be in the population (for example, Asians men are not "diverse", because there's plenty of them in tech - but Asian women are, because they're far less frequent). So, by definition, the "diverse" candidates will always be a minority. It can't be fixed. Even if we somehow reach perfect parity according to existing criteria (no one category is less frequent than the other, so no category can be chosen as the new "diverse" one), new dimensions of oppression can always be invented (e.g. tall/short, rich parents/poor parents etc.) or just created as intersections of existing ones. The game will never end.

peter422 4y ago
My CS classes in college were literally 98% male and 98% white and Asian. You are talking about a slippery slope to distract from the obvious existing problem. There might be a slippery slope in the future, I agree, but that doesn't mean there isn't an active problem now!
- badpun 4y ago
  Why is that a problem exactly? What problem is that causing to society? Mind you, there's plenty of women in tech (and often in business or managerial positions, directing those white and asian programmers), they just don't go through the CS degree. I personally don't blame them, my CS degree at least was really super boring and mostly just a way to get an easy and well paying job. And men care about both money and technical things much more than women, so it's natural than they flock to CS.
  - peter422 4y ago
    And Men obviously care about being doctors and lawyers more than women, too, of course for the same reasons. 60 years ago >90% of lawyers and doctors were Men and because the desire to be a doctor or a lawyer is mostly dictated by a person's gender those statistics haven't changed at all!
    - badpun 4y ago
      > And Men obviously care about being doctors and lawyers more than women, too, of course for the same reasons. ... Yes? At least in countries such as US, where these people in those professions can make large amounts of money. In my country (Poland), up to very recently, doctors were poorly paid and thus large number of doctors were women. > 60 years ago >90% of lawyers and doctors were Men and because the desire to be a doctor or a lawyer is mostly dictated by a person's gender those statistics haven't changed at all! It isn't as clear cut as with the CS, because women (on average) may be put off by the high competetiveness and poor life quality of law/medicine, but they are also drawn (on average) by the fact that in those fields you work with people. Whereas, in CS degree, there's literally nothing for them (on average).
    - invalidOrTaken 4y ago
      The Last Psychiatrist: https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/01/no_self-respecting_woman_would.html https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/01/no_self-respecting_w... >I don't want to be cynical, but boy oh boy is it hard not to observe that at the very moment in our history when we have the most women in the Senate, Congress is perceived to be pathetic, bickering, easily manipulated and powerless, and I'll risk the blowback and say that those are all stereotypes of women. Easy, HuffPo, I know it's not causal, I am saying the reverse: that if some field keeps the trappings of power but loses actual power, women enter it in droves and men abandon it like the Roanoke Colony. Again we must ask the question: if power seeking men aren't running for Senate, where did they go? Meanwhile all the lobbyists and Wall Street bankers are men, isn't that odd?
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    > And men care about both money and technical things much more than women Stop this. These arguments are not only making massive assumptions but they are historically and factually wrong. In the history of computing and computer science women formed a large chunk of computer science graduates and programmers. This decline started in 1984 when the culture and advertising shifted to market computers and such as being for boys. They were the pioneers of the computer science world and in an era where things were incredibly technical without the resources we take for granted.
- origin_path 4y ago
  That's not a problem unless you are either racist or sexist, in which case a preference for people based on their race or sex would make it a problem. But for everyone else, it's just whatever it is.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  >My CS classes in college were literally 98% male and 98% white and Asian. > You are talking about a slippery slope to distract from the obvious existing problem. I dont see a problem.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > My CS classes in college were literally 98% male and 98% white and Asian. Most certainly. Anyone else will get paid to learn CS on the job so it would be rather silly of them to spend their own dime in college. There is no free lunch here. If you strive for diversity in the workplace it is going to disappear from other places.
sascha_sl 4y ago
Does it have to? Humans are really bad at being rational actors. The fact that some groups are less represented is a source of bias on its own. They can still be sorted out if they don't meet hiring standards in the second step, where unconscious bias is a lot less likely to affect a person that can demonstrate their skills.