28 ms·

Protect your privacy and your phone number with Firefox Relay

161 points by mozillamaxx 4y ago

tailspin2019 4y ago
This is cool. I've recently been thinking about getting a "burner" number for sharing outside my immediate circle. Same for email - the idea would be to have a phone/email for public consumption and then a separate address and number for my inner circle of family/friends.
- nicholasjarnold 4y ago
  Same. Though for email there are good services like Fastmail (and likely many others) which already offer this and other benefits for a nominal subscription fee. I haven't implemented this idea yet, but what stops us from just buying Twilio credits, getting a number through them and then writing a bit of glue code to their API to pull down SMS messages (for things like 2-factor codes, etc) and route them wherever we find personally convenient? Maybe Twilio is also selling our customer data paired with these numbers to data brokers, though, IDK. It's just a fleeting idea I've had.
  - madamelic 4y ago
    Here you go: https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server Go wild. Gets you like 90% of the way there.
    - nicholasjarnold 4y ago
      Thank you! I'm going to check this out. A question about a comment you made elsewhere herein: > My caveat about this is some services will silently ignore you if you try to use a virtual number. It's more useful for IRL where you don't want to throw your real number around much. How, specifically, do other services detect this? Is it like with IP address space where it's possible to determine things like "this C block belongs to Entity X, Inc"? Are you aware of mechanisms to avoid this detection/blocking that don't require using a "real" number.
      - madamelic 4y ago
        > How, specifically, do other services detect this? I don't actually know specifically. I assume there are two different ways: - The service is using Verify / Authy, which is owned by Twilio so likely Twilio themselves discourage it - Looking up the number either through Twilio or some sort of central subscriber database. All virtual numbers are described as virtual numbers. > Are you aware of mechanisms to avoid this detection/blocking that don't require using a "real" number. Definitely gets into ethically gray areas since that would be super useful to nefarious people. I don't actually know for sure. I know from the recent Blizzard mobile 2FA controversy that this issue expands to also prepaid phone numbers. So I don't know of a definitive way to get around it beyond using a postpaid number. Somewhat related, near the end of my above mentioned service, I had pivoted into trying to launch a "21st century phone service" complete with SIM cards provided by Twilio. The issue? They were still considered virtual numbers. At the time, in Twilio's defense, I was somewhat misusing their service because their SIMs were intended for IoT purposes not actual cellphone usage. That's all to say, it's likely provider / subscriber level vs something you can individually spoof.
      - blep_ 4y ago
        Twilio, at least, has an API specifically for looking up the carrier of a phone number. (You can't do it based on number ranges, because portability.)
    - jacooper 4y ago
      License please!
      - madamelic 4y ago
        Pushed up a LICENSE document (MIT).
  - tailspin2019 4y ago
    > what stops us from just buying Twilio credits, getting a number through them I was considering exactly this, or potentially getting a second mobile number via eSIM on my phone (which feels a bit more "permanent" but that might be delusion...)
- returnInfinity 4y ago
  If you put your real phone number in your Resume and share it with a recruiter, consider your phone number public. Also LinkedIn will give away your contact details. Your Bank or any service important to you may get hacked and your phone number leaked.
  - lucb1e 4y ago
    I feel like we have very different expectations of what recruiters can and will do with personal information. I'm from within the EU, you? Not that they don't share your email to other persons working for the same company (I've had some name I never heard of from RecruitCorp email me seven years after I last talked to someone from RecruitCorp), or I could imagine they keep their contacts when moving into / out of self-employment, but that's a far cry from public.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      As someone in the UK and used to dealing with UK-based recruitment agencies, I didn't understand the recruiter hate until I had my first experience with one of those shitty "agencies" that claims to be in the UK (or whatever they're targeting) but is actually ran from a third-world call center right next to the tech support scammers. When it comes to those, obviously all bets are off when it comes to your personal information, and the recruitment industry in the US seems to be saturated with this scum much more so than in the EU. However, even legitimate recruiters can be a problem if you get too many of them. I recently had to rotate my business number because I was getting pretty much one call a day from someone wanting to "have a chat". They're all nice, courteous and seem to know what they're doing, but the sheer quantity became a major problem especially when you're already fully booked and aren't open to new business.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  Not worth it. I have a Google Voice number (free, easy, good UX). Now it’s a constant juggle of “which number did I give”. Especially since you presumably have already given away your current number. Even if you go all-in on burner number, there’s a question of longevity and risk. Do you give it to government? Do you give it to banks? Etc
  - tailspin2019 4y ago
    Yeah, very good points. I hadn't thought of the "which number did I give" complication.
    - kroltan 4y ago
      I do the same thing with e-mail addresses, and solve this by storing it in my password manager. Phone numbers don't quite have the same dynamic, but just having the ability of throwing a given problematic number away would already solve so much.
      - vineyardmike 4y ago
        > throwing a given problematic number away would already solve so much. The search space of valid numbers is very small compared to email. A throw away number is surely a number that has already been trashed by dozens of users before you. It’d be useless unless you can make everyone forget it between users. My personal cell number is 20 years old and gets almost no spam besides a rare robo call. Any throw away number I’ve acquire has a sordid history of being used as a honeypot it seems because it’s a cesspool.
- srhngpr 4y ago
  Simple and free solutions exist for this exact purpose: TextNow, Fongo, etc. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33169096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33169096
imagetic 4y ago
I like what Mozilla has been doing with their services, but they have built a very confusing business model of many micro services that I just don't see a ton of people signing up for as independent subscriptions. Why not bundle them all as one membership? Pocket, Mozilla VPN, Relay, Monitor, and whatever services they can scrape up premium options and features for to give them value?
- groovecoder 4y ago
  (Mozilla Privacy & Security ENGR) Stay tuned ... :)
  - politelemon 4y ago
    Since you're here looking, please could the relay custom domain feature support custom domains? At the moment it actually generates subdomains.
    - moxieta 4y ago
      i would like this too. i think you can do it with apple email relay. currently i have example.com as my email, which i use with mailbox.org, would it be possible to keep using it with mailbox.org and then for mozilla to allow it to be used for email relays? e.g. name@example.com goes to mailbox.org 3859dhtog@example.com goes to firefox relay (not currently ofc, but a future thing)
      - groovecoder 4y ago
        I assume this means you have an MX record at example.com pointing to your/mailbox.org SMTP server? AIUI, a sending MTA will look up the MX record for example.com by preference order and will deliver emails to the first server that accepts the connection. So it may depend if you can configure your mailbox.org account/server to reject connections from servers trying to send mail to unknown addresses? Then the sending MTA server might "fail over" to the Relay server instead?
    - 4y ago
rodolphoarruda 4y ago
We need this service available in Brazil like... yesterday. Robocalls are reaching unbearable levels.
- dividuum 4y ago
  Wouldn’t that just increase the number of calls, now that you can receive them on multiple numbers?
  - madamelic 4y ago
    In my experience: yes. The only way to really prevent it is to allowlist specific numbers you know will call the number and send "Number disconnected" signals for the rest. Eventually, the number gets quieter until it can be reached again. The ideal setup would be to have a private number that you never give out that denies anyone not on your allow then use throwaway numbers you can turn on and off as you need them. I used to have it where I would give numbers out then only have them 'active' when I was expecting a call. My original hypothesis was that the numbers were harvested, my new one (and likely correct) is that numbers are randomly dialed.
    - rodolphoarruda 4y ago
      > The only way to really prevent it is to allowlist specific numbers you know will call the number and send "Number disconnected" signals for the rest. That's my tactics via an app.
- kroltan 4y ago
  Yes, recently I was on a spree, receiving roughly 40 calls a day, I had to set my phone to not accept calls outside contacts, but then what is even the point of having a phone number at all.
jaclaz 4y ago
I don't understand the idea behind it. Now: 1) You give your real number to someone. 2) Somehow your real number goes into a list used by robo-callers. 3) A robo-call arrives on your real number, disturbing your peace. After: 0) You give Mozilla 3.99 or 4.99 US$/month 1) You give your Mozilla number to someone. 2) Somehow your Mozilla number goes into a list used by robo-callers. 3) A robo-call arrives on your Mozilla number, that promptly relays it to your real number, disturbing your peace. You cannot change your Mozilla number, so it is basically an "alias" number, where is the advantage? Stopping paying so that the number becomes invalid? But then you won't be reachable anymore by the people you gave that number to.
- barbariangrunge 4y ago
  I think the idea is to give your real email and phone number to real friends and family; then you use the relayed one with online services who might sell or lose the data. Then you could presumably ditch the related info after the spam gets to be too much? Or maybe you just do it to be more anonymous? It’s like the concept of a “burner phone” I think
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    But - originally - you give a number (be it real or Mozilla or "burner") in order to be contacted by someone (and then somehow it was leaked to the robocallers). The moment you change or abandon the number (be it Mozilla or "burner") that someone won't be able to contact you anymore. But if you keep it, with the burner at least that someone will still be able to call you at the end of the month (when the the robocallers will have already eaten the 50 minutes allowed by Mozilla).
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
      But if you can use a unique number per service, you now know which company is selling your PII and you could address that either by switching to a competitor or, depending on the legal specifics, sue/expose them.
madamelic 4y ago
If y'all are interested in something like this, let me know. I wrote a service exactly like this [0] and it sort of flopped because the marketing plan was bad and I struggled to crack my (poorly chosen) target market of 'privacyfreaks'. If you want to re-co-found with me on marketing / sales, hit me up: maddie+hn[at]qnzl.co. I tried some pivots, sucked at marketing it, I occasionally get asked about where it went. --- If anyone wants to run their own instance using Twilio, I open-sourced the basic structure of my previous service [1] so it should be fairly plug-and-play to do this cheaper ($1 per number + small usage fee) and for more numbers. My caveat about this is some services will silently ignore you if you try to use a virtual number. It's more useful for IRL where you don't want to throw your real number around much. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18311146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18311146 [1]: https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  ya that's useful. I do like this service. I have noticed more and more that people are asking for phone numbers for app registration and even in person I have seen this. A phone number to me is private and personal. The firefox service is priced well but 75 texts and 50 minutes of voice is fairly limited. The burner phone services that exist are too sketchy and too expensive for my taste. I don't like marketing or sales but if you could market yourself as a privacy focused, Free/Libre solution that wasn't a sketchy fly by night operation and offered more than a closed source phone app I would subscribe. Twilio itself seems to be oriented towards businesses and not individuals which is why I did not sign up with them.
- bpye 4y ago
  Aside: qnzl.co gives me a page not found and a warning about a selfsigned cert.
hguant 4y ago
I'd be more for this if Mozilla didn't have a habit of sneaking in actively privacy hostile "updates" and enabling them by default.
cmcconomy 4y ago
This service seems interesting for people who are establishing net new phone numbers, but for those of us who have existing numbers they've been using, the barn door is already open. This wouldn't get us off existing lists.
darkarmani 4y ago
Isn't this Google Voice which was once Grand Central (12 years ago)? Forward your phone number to a different number through gvoice. For email, add a '+' symbol to your email address and filter them out if they get abusive.
- SadTrombone 4y ago
  > For email, add a '+' symbol to your email address and filter them out if they get abusive. It's still trivial to parse your real email address from this. With Relay your real email address is completely obfuscated.
vmoore 4y ago
> this feature is available in the U.S. and Canada Bummer. Before reading this, I was so excited, since robocalls and sketchy SMS messages with malware payloads have plagued my phone for years, and now it's not available to me (I'm in the EU).
crackercrews 4y ago
> Each month you will receive up to 50 minutes for incoming calls and 75 text messages. All phone number masking plans will include unlimited email masking. The cost is $3.99 a month for an annual plan or $4.99 a month for a monthly plan. So you pay $4-5 per month and you're still limited? I was expecting there would be some free amount and after that it's paid. Will this SMS work for account verification?
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  Google Voice numbers are reported as landlines, there seems to be some way to verify that a number is actually mobile. Very likely that Mozilla's report as landline. Banks (capital one) have definitely balked at my google voice number. What these burner numbers are great for are rewards programs. I sign up for every one I can with my GV number!
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    I'd be very interested to know if they work for SMS-only applications. I guess it's only $5 to try and find out. If anyone has tried, please report back!
  - mdasen 4y ago
    When I look up my Google Voice number, it shows up as VoIP (not quite landline) with the carrier being Grand Central - SVR. It seems likely that Mozilla's service will similarly show up as VoIP. Some places are filtering VoIP numbers from their SMS verification schemes, but most places will let you sign up for promotional texts from a VoIP number.
    - crackercrews 4y ago
      What about account verification for Twitter/etc.?
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      Where can you "look up" your number? There was something recently around a game which was able to detect if a user's phone number was on a prepaid or postpaid plan. I had no idea carriers share this information with others.
LeoPanthera 4y ago
Maybe this is a good place to ask: I'm a British expat living in the USA, and for a while now I've wanted a service which provides a British phone number, and forwards calls and texts to my US number, while also allowing me to send texts and make calls "from" the UK number if I want to. It looks like I might be able to do this with Twilio, but I'm not a developer, and quickly got frustrated trying to build what I wanted. Is there a service that will do this for me at a reasonable price?
- MatthewMcDonald 4y ago
  Check out MySudo. It doesn't _forward_ the calls and texts, but you can have multiple numbers that you can call/text with from the app.
- zaik 4y ago
  Have you tried https://jmp.chat https://jmp.chat ?
  - LeoPanthera 4y ago
    No, because they don't provide UK numbers.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Check out Andrews & Arnold. They provide real 07 numbers that aren't classified as VoIP by most providers, so they will actually work fine for most online services too. (my company resells these with some add-on services on top, but for your use-case you're better off just going to the source directly)
  - bpye 4y ago
    I was tempted by this but I've heard they'll shut down your service if they figure out you're outside the UK? I still have a UK number at the moment but if I could port to A&A without worrying about this I totally would.
    - 4y ago
faultable 4y ago
only for certain regions, as always.
moxieta 4y ago
is this usa and canada only? i can't see any option when i log on from the uk.
- Vinnl 4y ago
  Unfortunately, at this time, yes: > Currently, this feature is available in the U.S. and Canada. As we roll out this feature, we will explore how we can expand this offering to outbound calls and texts, as well as to other regions. (Edited to add:) And I feel your pain - I'm a Relay engineer in the Netherlands, and I can't even use this myself... But unfortunately, it's not easy to offer this elsewhere at a reasonable price, so we're still figuring that out.
rsync 4y ago
This is my 2FA Mule. There are others like it, but this one is mine: https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/ https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/
- jaclaz 4y ago
  This is very interesting and nice.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
grammers 4y ago
This looks nice. I'm currently using Tutanota and love it. Seems like it would be possible to connect this with Firefox Relay, digging into it a bit more!
janalsncm 4y ago
It would be great if someone could package several virtual services into one app. Virtual cc number, virtual email address, virtual phone number all with one click. That way I can sign up for some in-store membership with working info, get the discount, and never worry about my info being compromised.
- auslegung 4y ago
  I use Fastmail for what they call Masked Email, and Privacy.com for unique debit cards for shopping online. They both integrate with 1Password. So when I sign up for a new account, 1Password generates a Masked Email, a random password, and a unique debit card, and saves it all, and I LOVE IT! Fastmail referral url: https://ref.fm/u26310488 https://ref.fm/u26310488 Privacy.com referral url: https://privacy.com/join/JCPFN https://privacy.com/join/JCPFN
ronnocoep 4y ago
Craigslist used to have a free service similar to this called 'Craigs Number'. Worked well and was free. Come on Mozilla, you can do better.
tjoff 4y ago
> Next, you will be prompted to verify your true phone number where the calls and texts will be forwarded to via text message. After verification, we will generate your phone number mask. Doesn't feel necessary to me really. I've never ever been in the need for an incoming call, just for sms. And I'd much rather have them sent to an email rather than my actual phone too (and then I wouldn't need to share my phone number with this service either). That would be a real use-case for me. But paying a monthly subscription for that twice a year sms isn't that great either. I currently have a pre-paid sim and an old phone for this usecase. It kind of sucks and I don't have access to it when I'm not home (sure, there are ways to sync this but haven't felt a big enough need for it yet).
srhngpr 4y ago
I think TextNow offers a better solution and I've been using it to do this for quite some time and it doesn't require any kind of forwarding. I can send/receive calls and messages directly from within its app and recycle numbers at any time - all for free (ad supported). Calls are of great quality too and it even includes voicemail. If I really like a number and want to lock it (to also receive 2FA codes), it's a yearly $7 fee. Works with area codes in US and Canada. I think there are other options like Fongo and probably a dozen other similar services that already have been doing this for some time. Not really seeing the value proposition of going with the Mozilla option here. Am I missing something?
- pigeons 4y ago
  I silently miss so many incoming calls with TextNow and from reviews it seems I'm not the only one, but I don't really know another option for a Canadian number.
  - srhngpr 4y ago
    I have heard similar things from friends that use it on iOS but on Android, I haven't missed any call I was expecting. Even when I've lost connection to data (e.g., in an elevator or something) and a call was made, at least I see the missed call notification after my data was restored. Fongo is another option for a Canadian option.
    - pigeons 4y ago
      Thanks. I use Android.
jacooper 4y ago
Call me when you remove Ganalytics from such "privacy focused service" (1) Will stick with Simplelogin.io, which is included for free with Proton Unlimited. 1: https://github.com/mozilla/fx-private-relay/issues/1639 https://github.com/mozilla/fx-private-relay/issues/1639
sneak 4y ago
Spam calls are not the reason it is bad to give your number out; it isn’t related to calls at all. Your number is your permanent cross-app, cross-company tracking identifier. It is a lookup key for your name, address, income bracket, email, spam history, etc. This is why so many apps require it during signup.
petarb 4y ago
I can’t wait for Apple to add this to iCloud
arealaccount 4y ago
How is this different from google voice which is free?
- lijogdfljk 4y ago
  Even if it was identical i'd be interested simply because it isn't Google. I used to have Google Voice.
  - arealaccount 4y ago
    Its not identical because it’s metered and you have to give a credit card. Why would someone pay for this? Just to stick it to google?
    - lijogdfljk 4y ago
      > Why would someone pay for this? Just to stick it to google? Why do i pay for email? To not use Google. How is "paying for your service" so obscure to you?
- Hrundi 4y ago
  Google Voice is US & Canada only, I believe.
  - Vinnl 4y ago
    Unfortunately Relay phone number masking is too, at this point in time.
- halffaday 4y ago
  I wouldn’t be shocked if it were actually just be a reboot of the same Google service proxied through Mozilla to recapture some lost market share.
anotherrandom 4y ago
Just set up an email service and everything and start offering similiarities to Google's web ecosystem already. Mozilla doesn't need to worry about devices or a cloud division, or even a search engine (yet? Brave has one). The slower they are to realize they need to do all that to stay relevant, the faster Firefox's market share shrinks
tblflpr 4y ago
Right, because adding *more* anonymity to our tech is precisely what we need to enable more bad actors to do whatever they want without facing any repercussions. slow clap I am all for privacy, but many so-called privacy-centric tech “solutions” are simultaneously crime-enablers. Things need to be fixed at the legislative level, not by opening more pandora’s meta-crypto-app-boxes.
prng2021 4y ago
Is someone at Mozilla willing to share some technical details about how this is implemented under the covers? The main thing I’m curious about is: Can the ability to have multiple relay numbers tied to 1 real number be added relatively easily by scaling your technical architecture, or is there some non-marginal underlying cost to each additional relay number that would make such a feature too expensive to support at this price point?
- Vinnl 4y ago
  As I understand it there's a cost to every number, which is why we're limiting it to just one number at the moment. (Though we'd definitely have loved to implement it the same way we do email masks; if we do find a way to cost-effectively do so, I'm sure we will.)
pyinstallwoes 4y ago
Less useful if you can’t generate a mask per a signup form.
RockRobotRock 4y ago
How will this be resistant to scams where you "refer a friend" to get free Uber Eats or Doordash or whatever?
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
> Since launching in 2020, Firefox Relay – a privacy-first product that hides your real email address to help protect your identity – has blocked more than 1.3 million unwanted emails Gmail might block the same 1.3M unwanted emails every... minute?
Terretta 4y ago
Meanwhile, Hushed lets you get many numbers and costs less. https://hushed.com/ https://hushed.com/ "Since 2013, Hushed has offered consumers affordable private phone number solutions with fully equipped talk and text capabilities. With an expansive selection of phone numbers from over 300 area codes in the US, Canada, and UK, our goal is to provide a secure telecommunication experience for users around the world. Hushed offers mobile and local phone numbers from a variety of countries and area codes. We pride ourselves on the high-quality service we offer all our customers, and we believe that protecting your privacy is of the utmost importance." // not affiliated
4k1l 4y ago
Would be nice if Mozilla do whole package, something similar to amazon prime, for a single price.
jasec57322 4y ago
Mozilla has a massive trust problem. They could still so easily regain much of their lost trust by sincerely apologising for their cock-ups (dodgy studies/data-collection, addons-fiasco, etc) and their political shilling; and yet, they do not. The sewage they keep pumping out on their blog, and spaffing money on expensive rebrands, is turning-off the users who keep Mozilla alive. Given how much they're doing for Google's market-share with this blatant self-sabotage, you'd be forgiven for thinking Mozilla is being run by Google.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
Obviously, those phone numbers will very soon be blacklisted and not accepted by businesses.
- throwawayKiwi9 4y ago
  If these are VOIP then, sadly, these already won't work with a huge number of services.

161 points by mozillamaxx 4y ago

tailspin2019 4y ago

This is cool. I've recently been thinking about getting a "burner" number for sharing outside my immediate circle. Same for email - the idea would be to have a phone/email for public consumption and then a separate address and number for my inner circle of family/friends.

nicholasjarnold 4y ago
Same. Though for email there are good services like Fastmail (and likely many others) which already offer this and other benefits for a nominal subscription fee. I haven't implemented this idea yet, but what stops us from just buying Twilio credits, getting a number through them and then writing a bit of glue code to their API to pull down SMS messages (for things like 2-factor codes, etc) and route them wherever we find personally convenient? Maybe Twilio is also selling our customer data paired with these numbers to data brokers, though, IDK. It's just a fleeting idea I've had.
- madamelic 4y ago
  Here you go: https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server Go wild. Gets you like 90% of the way there.
  - nicholasjarnold 4y ago
    Thank you! I'm going to check this out. A question about a comment you made elsewhere herein: > My caveat about this is some services will silently ignore you if you try to use a virtual number. It's more useful for IRL where you don't want to throw your real number around much. How, specifically, do other services detect this? Is it like with IP address space where it's possible to determine things like "this C block belongs to Entity X, Inc"? Are you aware of mechanisms to avoid this detection/blocking that don't require using a "real" number.
    - madamelic 4y ago
      > How, specifically, do other services detect this? I don't actually know specifically. I assume there are two different ways: - The service is using Verify / Authy, which is owned by Twilio so likely Twilio themselves discourage it - Looking up the number either through Twilio or some sort of central subscriber database. All virtual numbers are described as virtual numbers. > Are you aware of mechanisms to avoid this detection/blocking that don't require using a "real" number. Definitely gets into ethically gray areas since that would be super useful to nefarious people. I don't actually know for sure. I know from the recent Blizzard mobile 2FA controversy that this issue expands to also prepaid phone numbers. So I don't know of a definitive way to get around it beyond using a postpaid number. Somewhat related, near the end of my above mentioned service, I had pivoted into trying to launch a "21st century phone service" complete with SIM cards provided by Twilio. The issue? They were still considered virtual numbers. At the time, in Twilio's defense, I was somewhat misusing their service because their SIMs were intended for IoT purposes not actual cellphone usage. That's all to say, it's likely provider / subscriber level vs something you can individually spoof.
    - blep_ 4y ago
      Twilio, at least, has an API specifically for looking up the carrier of a phone number. (You can't do it based on number ranges, because portability.)
  - jacooper 4y ago
    License please!
    - madamelic 4y ago
      Pushed up a LICENSE document (MIT).
- tailspin2019 4y ago
  > what stops us from just buying Twilio credits, getting a number through them I was considering exactly this, or potentially getting a second mobile number via eSIM on my phone (which feels a bit more "permanent" but that might be delusion...)
returnInfinity 4y ago
If you put your real phone number in your Resume and share it with a recruiter, consider your phone number public. Also LinkedIn will give away your contact details. Your Bank or any service important to you may get hacked and your phone number leaked.
- lucb1e 4y ago
  I feel like we have very different expectations of what recruiters can and will do with personal information. I'm from within the EU, you? Not that they don't share your email to other persons working for the same company (I've had some name I never heard of from RecruitCorp email me seven years after I last talked to someone from RecruitCorp), or I could imagine they keep their contacts when moving into / out of self-employment, but that's a far cry from public.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    As someone in the UK and used to dealing with UK-based recruitment agencies, I didn't understand the recruiter hate until I had my first experience with one of those shitty "agencies" that claims to be in the UK (or whatever they're targeting) but is actually ran from a third-world call center right next to the tech support scammers. When it comes to those, obviously all bets are off when it comes to your personal information, and the recruitment industry in the US seems to be saturated with this scum much more so than in the EU. However, even legitimate recruiters can be a problem if you get too many of them. I recently had to rotate my business number because I was getting pretty much one call a day from someone wanting to "have a chat". They're all nice, courteous and seem to know what they're doing, but the sheer quantity became a major problem especially when you're already fully booked and aren't open to new business.
vineyardmike 4y ago
Not worth it. I have a Google Voice number (free, easy, good UX). Now it’s a constant juggle of “which number did I give”. Especially since you presumably have already given away your current number. Even if you go all-in on burner number, there’s a question of longevity and risk. Do you give it to government? Do you give it to banks? Etc
- tailspin2019 4y ago
  Yeah, very good points. I hadn't thought of the "which number did I give" complication.
  - kroltan 4y ago
    I do the same thing with e-mail addresses, and solve this by storing it in my password manager. Phone numbers don't quite have the same dynamic, but just having the ability of throwing a given problematic number away would already solve so much.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      > throwing a given problematic number away would already solve so much. The search space of valid numbers is very small compared to email. A throw away number is surely a number that has already been trashed by dozens of users before you. It’d be useless unless you can make everyone forget it between users. My personal cell number is 20 years old and gets almost no spam besides a rare robo call. Any throw away number I’ve acquire has a sordid history of being used as a honeypot it seems because it’s a cesspool.
srhngpr 4y ago
Simple and free solutions exist for this exact purpose: TextNow, Fongo, etc. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33169096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33169096

imagetic 4y ago

I like what Mozilla has been doing with their services, but they have built a very confusing business model of many micro services that I just don't see a ton of people signing up for as independent subscriptions. Why not bundle them all as one membership? Pocket, Mozilla VPN, Relay, Monitor, and whatever services they can scrape up premium options and features for to give them value?

groovecoder 4y ago
(Mozilla Privacy & Security ENGR) Stay tuned ... :)
- politelemon 4y ago
  Since you're here looking, please could the relay custom domain feature support custom domains? At the moment it actually generates subdomains.
  - moxieta 4y ago
    i would like this too. i think you can do it with apple email relay. currently i have example.com as my email, which i use with mailbox.org, would it be possible to keep using it with mailbox.org and then for mozilla to allow it to be used for email relays? e.g. name@example.com goes to mailbox.org 3859dhtog@example.com goes to firefox relay (not currently ofc, but a future thing)
    - groovecoder 4y ago
      I assume this means you have an MX record at example.com pointing to your/mailbox.org SMTP server? AIUI, a sending MTA will look up the MX record for example.com by preference order and will deliver emails to the first server that accepts the connection. So it may depend if you can configure your mailbox.org account/server to reject connections from servers trying to send mail to unknown addresses? Then the sending MTA server might "fail over" to the Relay server instead?
  - 4y ago

rodolphoarruda 4y ago

We need this service available in Brazil like... yesterday. Robocalls are reaching unbearable levels.

dividuum 4y ago
Wouldn’t that just increase the number of calls, now that you can receive them on multiple numbers?
- madamelic 4y ago
  In my experience: yes. The only way to really prevent it is to allowlist specific numbers you know will call the number and send "Number disconnected" signals for the rest. Eventually, the number gets quieter until it can be reached again. The ideal setup would be to have a private number that you never give out that denies anyone not on your allow then use throwaway numbers you can turn on and off as you need them. I used to have it where I would give numbers out then only have them 'active' when I was expecting a call. My original hypothesis was that the numbers were harvested, my new one (and likely correct) is that numbers are randomly dialed.
  - rodolphoarruda 4y ago
    > The only way to really prevent it is to allowlist specific numbers you know will call the number and send "Number disconnected" signals for the rest. That's my tactics via an app.
kroltan 4y ago
Yes, recently I was on a spree, receiving roughly 40 calls a day, I had to set my phone to not accept calls outside contacts, but then what is even the point of having a phone number at all.

jaclaz 4y ago

I don't understand the idea behind it. Now: 1) You give your real number to someone. 2) Somehow your real number goes into a list used by robo-callers. 3) A robo-call arrives on your real number, disturbing your peace. After: 0) You give Mozilla 3.99 or 4.99 US$/month 1) You give your Mozilla number to someone. 2) Somehow your Mozilla number goes into a list used by robo-callers. 3) A robo-call arrives on your Mozilla number, that promptly relays it to your real number, disturbing your peace. You cannot change your Mozilla number, so it is basically an "alias" number, where is the advantage? Stopping paying so that the number becomes invalid? But then you won't be reachable anymore by the people you gave that number to.

barbariangrunge 4y ago
I think the idea is to give your real email and phone number to real friends and family; then you use the relayed one with online services who might sell or lose the data. Then you could presumably ditch the related info after the spam gets to be too much? Or maybe you just do it to be more anonymous? It’s like the concept of a “burner phone” I think
- jaclaz 4y ago
  But - originally - you give a number (be it real or Mozilla or "burner") in order to be contacted by someone (and then somehow it was leaked to the robocallers). The moment you change or abandon the number (be it Mozilla or "burner") that someone won't be able to contact you anymore. But if you keep it, with the burner at least that someone will still be able to call you at the end of the month (when the the robocallers will have already eaten the 50 minutes allowed by Mozilla).
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    But if you can use a unique number per service, you now know which company is selling your PII and you could address that either by switching to a competitor or, depending on the legal specifics, sue/expose them.

madamelic 4y ago

If y'all are interested in something like this, let me know. I wrote a service exactly like this [0] and it sort of flopped because the marketing plan was bad and I struggled to crack my (poorly chosen) target market of 'privacyfreaks'. If you want to re-co-found with me on marketing / sales, hit me up: maddie+hn[at]qnzl.co. I tried some pivots, sucked at marketing it, I occasionally get asked about where it went. --- If anyone wants to run their own instance using Twilio, I open-sourced the basic structure of my previous service [1] so it should be fairly plug-and-play to do this cheaper ($1 per number + small usage fee) and for more numbers. My caveat about this is some services will silently ignore you if you try to use a virtual number. It's more useful for IRL where you don't want to throw your real number around much. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18311146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18311146 [1]: https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server

onetimeusename 4y ago
ya that's useful. I do like this service. I have noticed more and more that people are asking for phone numbers for app registration and even in person I have seen this. A phone number to me is private and personal. The firefox service is priced well but 75 texts and 50 minutes of voice is fairly limited. The burner phone services that exist are too sketchy and too expensive for my taste. I don't like marketing or sales but if you could market yourself as a privacy focused, Free/Libre solution that wasn't a sketchy fly by night operation and offered more than a closed source phone app I would subscribe. Twilio itself seems to be oriented towards businesses and not individuals which is why I did not sign up with them.
bpye 4y ago
Aside: qnzl.co gives me a page not found and a warning about a selfsigned cert.

hguant 4y ago

I'd be more for this if Mozilla didn't have a habit of sneaking in actively privacy hostile "updates" and enabling them by default.

cmcconomy 4y ago

This service seems interesting for people who are establishing net new phone numbers, but for those of us who have existing numbers they've been using, the barn door is already open. This wouldn't get us off existing lists.

darkarmani 4y ago

Isn't this Google Voice which was once Grand Central (12 years ago)? Forward your phone number to a different number through gvoice. For email, add a '+' symbol to your email address and filter them out if they get abusive.

SadTrombone 4y ago
> For email, add a '+' symbol to your email address and filter them out if they get abusive. It's still trivial to parse your real email address from this. With Relay your real email address is completely obfuscated.

vmoore 4y ago

> this feature is available in the U.S. and Canada Bummer. Before reading this, I was so excited, since robocalls and sketchy SMS messages with malware payloads have plagued my phone for years, and now it's not available to me (I'm in the EU).

crackercrews 4y ago

> Each month you will receive up to 50 minutes for incoming calls and 75 text messages. All phone number masking plans will include unlimited email masking. The cost is $3.99 a month for an annual plan or $4.99 a month for a monthly plan. So you pay $4-5 per month and you're still limited? I was expecting there would be some free amount and after that it's paid. Will this SMS work for account verification?

kylehotchkiss 4y ago
Google Voice numbers are reported as landlines, there seems to be some way to verify that a number is actually mobile. Very likely that Mozilla's report as landline. Banks (capital one) have definitely balked at my google voice number. What these burner numbers are great for are rewards programs. I sign up for every one I can with my GV number!
- crackercrews 4y ago
  I'd be very interested to know if they work for SMS-only applications. I guess it's only $5 to try and find out. If anyone has tried, please report back!
- mdasen 4y ago
  When I look up my Google Voice number, it shows up as VoIP (not quite landline) with the carrier being Grand Central - SVR. It seems likely that Mozilla's service will similarly show up as VoIP. Some places are filtering VoIP numbers from their SMS verification schemes, but most places will let you sign up for promotional texts from a VoIP number.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    What about account verification for Twitter/etc.?
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Where can you "look up" your number? There was something recently around a game which was able to detect if a user's phone number was on a prepaid or postpaid plan. I had no idea carriers share this information with others.

LeoPanthera 4y ago

Maybe this is a good place to ask: I'm a British expat living in the USA, and for a while now I've wanted a service which provides a British phone number, and forwards calls and texts to my US number, while also allowing me to send texts and make calls "from" the UK number if I want to. It looks like I might be able to do this with Twilio, but I'm not a developer, and quickly got frustrated trying to build what I wanted. Is there a service that will do this for me at a reasonable price?

MatthewMcDonald 4y ago
Check out MySudo. It doesn't _forward_ the calls and texts, but you can have multiple numbers that you can call/text with from the app.
zaik 4y ago
Have you tried https://jmp.chat https://jmp.chat ?
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  No, because they don't provide UK numbers.
Nextgrid 4y ago
Check out Andrews & Arnold. They provide real 07 numbers that aren't classified as VoIP by most providers, so they will actually work fine for most online services too. (my company resells these with some add-on services on top, but for your use-case you're better off just going to the source directly)
- bpye 4y ago
  I was tempted by this but I've heard they'll shut down your service if they figure out you're outside the UK? I still have a UK number at the moment but if I could port to A&A without worrying about this I totally would.
  - 4y ago

faultable 4y ago

only for certain regions, as always.

moxieta 4y ago

is this usa and canada only? i can't see any option when i log on from the uk.

Vinnl 4y ago
Unfortunately, at this time, yes: > Currently, this feature is available in the U.S. and Canada. As we roll out this feature, we will explore how we can expand this offering to outbound calls and texts, as well as to other regions. (Edited to add:) And I feel your pain - I'm a Relay engineer in the Netherlands, and I can't even use this myself... But unfortunately, it's not easy to offer this elsewhere at a reasonable price, so we're still figuring that out.

rsync 4y ago

This is my 2FA Mule. There are others like it, but this one is mine: https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/ https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/

jaclaz 4y ago
This is very interesting and nice.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

grammers 4y ago

This looks nice. I'm currently using Tutanota and love it. Seems like it would be possible to connect this with Firefox Relay, digging into it a bit more!

janalsncm 4y ago

It would be great if someone could package several virtual services into one app. Virtual cc number, virtual email address, virtual phone number all with one click. That way I can sign up for some in-store membership with working info, get the discount, and never worry about my info being compromised.

auslegung 4y ago
I use Fastmail for what they call Masked Email, and Privacy.com for unique debit cards for shopping online. They both integrate with 1Password. So when I sign up for a new account, 1Password generates a Masked Email, a random password, and a unique debit card, and saves it all, and I LOVE IT! Fastmail referral url: https://ref.fm/u26310488 https://ref.fm/u26310488 Privacy.com referral url: https://privacy.com/join/JCPFN https://privacy.com/join/JCPFN

ronnocoep 4y ago

Craigslist used to have a free service similar to this called 'Craigs Number'. Worked well and was free. Come on Mozilla, you can do better.

tjoff 4y ago

> Next, you will be prompted to verify your true phone number where the calls and texts will be forwarded to via text message. After verification, we will generate your phone number mask. Doesn't feel necessary to me really. I've never ever been in the need for an incoming call, just for sms. And I'd much rather have them sent to an email rather than my actual phone too (and then I wouldn't need to share my phone number with this service either). That would be a real use-case for me. But paying a monthly subscription for that twice a year sms isn't that great either. I currently have a pre-paid sim and an old phone for this usecase. It kind of sucks and I don't have access to it when I'm not home (sure, there are ways to sync this but haven't felt a big enough need for it yet).

srhngpr 4y ago

I think TextNow offers a better solution and I've been using it to do this for quite some time and it doesn't require any kind of forwarding. I can send/receive calls and messages directly from within its app and recycle numbers at any time - all for free (ad supported). Calls are of great quality too and it even includes voicemail. If I really like a number and want to lock it (to also receive 2FA codes), it's a yearly $7 fee. Works with area codes in US and Canada. I think there are other options like Fongo and probably a dozen other similar services that already have been doing this for some time. Not really seeing the value proposition of going with the Mozilla option here. Am I missing something?

pigeons 4y ago
I silently miss so many incoming calls with TextNow and from reviews it seems I'm not the only one, but I don't really know another option for a Canadian number.
- srhngpr 4y ago
  I have heard similar things from friends that use it on iOS but on Android, I haven't missed any call I was expecting. Even when I've lost connection to data (e.g., in an elevator or something) and a call was made, at least I see the missed call notification after my data was restored. Fongo is another option for a Canadian option.
  - pigeons 4y ago
    Thanks. I use Android.

jacooper 4y ago

Call me when you remove Ganalytics from such "privacy focused service" (1) Will stick with Simplelogin.io, which is included for free with Proton Unlimited. 1: https://github.com/mozilla/fx-private-relay/issues/1639 https://github.com/mozilla/fx-private-relay/issues/1639

sneak 4y ago

Spam calls are not the reason it is bad to give your number out; it isn’t related to calls at all. Your number is your permanent cross-app, cross-company tracking identifier. It is a lookup key for your name, address, income bracket, email, spam history, etc. This is why so many apps require it during signup.

petarb 4y ago

I can’t wait for Apple to add this to iCloud

arealaccount 4y ago

How is this different from google voice which is free?

lijogdfljk 4y ago
Even if it was identical i'd be interested simply because it isn't Google. I used to have Google Voice.
- arealaccount 4y ago
  Its not identical because it’s metered and you have to give a credit card. Why would someone pay for this? Just to stick it to google?
  - lijogdfljk 4y ago
    > Why would someone pay for this? Just to stick it to google? Why do i pay for email? To not use Google. How is "paying for your service" so obscure to you?
Hrundi 4y ago
Google Voice is US & Canada only, I believe.
- Vinnl 4y ago
  Unfortunately Relay phone number masking is too, at this point in time.
halffaday 4y ago
I wouldn’t be shocked if it were actually just be a reboot of the same Google service proxied through Mozilla to recapture some lost market share.

anotherrandom 4y ago

Just set up an email service and everything and start offering similiarities to Google's web ecosystem already. Mozilla doesn't need to worry about devices or a cloud division, or even a search engine (yet? Brave has one). The slower they are to realize they need to do all that to stay relevant, the faster Firefox's market share shrinks

tblflpr 4y ago

Right, because adding *more* anonymity to our tech is precisely what we need to enable more bad actors to do whatever they want without facing any repercussions. slow clap I am all for privacy, but many so-called privacy-centric tech “solutions” are simultaneously crime-enablers. Things need to be fixed at the legislative level, not by opening more pandora’s meta-crypto-app-boxes.

prng2021 4y ago

Is someone at Mozilla willing to share some technical details about how this is implemented under the covers? The main thing I’m curious about is: Can the ability to have multiple relay numbers tied to 1 real number be added relatively easily by scaling your technical architecture, or is there some non-marginal underlying cost to each additional relay number that would make such a feature too expensive to support at this price point?

Vinnl 4y ago
As I understand it there's a cost to every number, which is why we're limiting it to just one number at the moment. (Though we'd definitely have loved to implement it the same way we do email masks; if we do find a way to cost-effectively do so, I'm sure we will.)

pyinstallwoes 4y ago

Less useful if you can’t generate a mask per a signup form.

RockRobotRock 4y ago

How will this be resistant to scams where you "refer a friend" to get free Uber Eats or Doordash or whatever?

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

> Since launching in 2020, Firefox Relay – a privacy-first product that hides your real email address to help protect your identity – has blocked more than 1.3 million unwanted emails Gmail might block the same 1.3M unwanted emails every... minute?

Terretta 4y ago

Meanwhile, Hushed lets you get many numbers and costs less. https://hushed.com/ https://hushed.com/ "Since 2013, Hushed has offered consumers affordable private phone number solutions with fully equipped talk and text capabilities. With an expansive selection of phone numbers from over 300 area codes in the US, Canada, and UK, our goal is to provide a secure telecommunication experience for users around the world. Hushed offers mobile and local phone numbers from a variety of countries and area codes. We pride ourselves on the high-quality service we offer all our customers, and we believe that protecting your privacy is of the utmost importance." // not affiliated

4k1l 4y ago

Would be nice if Mozilla do whole package, something similar to amazon prime, for a single price.

jasec57322 4y ago

Mozilla has a massive trust problem. They could still so easily regain much of their lost trust by sincerely apologising for their cock-ups (dodgy studies/data-collection, addons-fiasco, etc) and their political shilling; and yet, they do not. The sewage they keep pumping out on their blog, and spaffing money on expensive rebrands, is turning-off the users who keep Mozilla alive. Given how much they're doing for Google's market-share with this blatant self-sabotage, you'd be forgiven for thinking Mozilla is being run by Google.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

Obviously, those phone numbers will very soon be blacklisted and not accepted by businesses.

throwawayKiwi9 4y ago
If these are VOIP then, sadly, these already won't work with a huge number of services.