6 ms·

As a (very recently) former GM employee, this is really exciting. The new division is created almost entirely of engineers, many poached from Tesla, Shell, and

by s3p 4y ago

As a (very recently) former GM employee, this is really exciting. The new division is created almost entirely of engineers, many poached from Tesla, Shell, and other energy industry players. Not to sound like a talking head for the company but these programs have been in the works for a while and if they actually come off the ground it would be a huge win for customers (and a big loss for utilities & corps that only make combustion engine vehicles). A misconception here is that we're directly competing with Tesla on all business fronts. That's not entirely true. GM wants to become an administrator of a hardware ecosystem which can include a GM EV or an EV made by somebody else. Most of GM Energy's home hardware will be compatible with 3rd parties. Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla. Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. Edit: spelling

rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
>Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla :| annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. You didn't know? They use CCS Type-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector but Tesla's connector is 10x better. Looks at this comparison: https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... Tesla Superchargers are now equipped with CCS connectors and Tesla offers an adapter of course: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Adapter_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Ad...
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >Tesla's connector is 10x better It's smaller? What makes it so much better that you would be happy having to carry an adapter around with you? Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome?
  - s3p 4y ago
    The difference in adapter isn't such a big deal when you're only charging at home or at a Tesla supercharger station. Things with the differing connector only come in to play when you're at a non-Tesla supercharger or wall charger, so I think people are using the adapters far less than you'd expect.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
    >Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome? No. I'm French (Tesla has a different connector for their European superchargers). I have been only using Android devices since about 2009 and I've only had USB charging plugs at my place for 12+ years. So…
  - musingsole 4y ago
    While the analogy of Tesla to Apple is apt, it's ignoring the amount of industry entrenchment Tesla had to overcome to get to the point where the analogy makes sense. There's reason to suspect that Tesla's EV systems from top to bottom are referencing a much larger bulk of design material than all other competitors (as they kind of created the modern market while all other large players mostly watched). So, a standard selected by industry players who were all betting heavily against the design gambles Tesla took everyday ending in 'Y' might not be the rocksolid, consumer friendly standard it looks like at the first shake. All car companies are bad, dirty, greedy, bastards.
- s3p 4y ago
  Haha yes. I was very disconnected from EVs and the auto industry before working at GM. Either way it's just surprising they didn't help design the standard and work to make it better.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
    >Either way it's just surprising they didn't help design the standard and work to make it better. Oh so you have a good deal to learn. You should start with - Who Killed the Electric Car? (2006 film) - Revenge of the Electric Car (2011 follow up) Let me tell you that when Tesla entered the market as a serious player, the rest of the industry did not intend to let Tesla have their say nor to collaborate with them. Tesla had to make their own (better) design and find their way through. They could not wait for standardization when the rest of the industry was fighting tooth and nails against the transition to EV.
    - Tagbert 4y ago
      “Who Killed the Electric Car?” was a hit piece that has not aged well as GM has embraced EVs and is on their way to being a major EV manufacturer.
      - nebula8804 4y ago
        How has it not aged well? It documents what happened when GM killed the EV1 by interviewing the former people involved with the program. (Some of which went on to Tesla.)
        Tagbert 4y ago
        It is mainly brought up today to claim that GM is somehow opposed to EVs. The actual story becomes secondary. I’ve seen this in countless discussions of EVs.
        bhauer 4y ago
        But here it was brought up to provide context for why Tesla had to go it alone in creating a charging network and connector. And to provide some useful context when digesting what amounts to a GM press release from The Verge. If you're not aware of GM's past with electric cars, you might afford them too much trust in the present. Not to say they deserve exclusively disdain, but they need to continue to (re)earn trust by actually executing rather than talking.
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  > but Tesla's connector is 10x better. People used to say the same thing about Betamax. Betamax's smaller size ultimately was why it failed in the marketplace; VHS would always have a longer recording time because the cassette was physically larger and could hold more tape. CCS's pins appear larger, which means that they will always be able to handle more current, and thus a CCS connector will ultimately be able to charge faster than Supercharger. (And I say this owning a Tesla, and ordering a 2nd one last night. There's many more Superchargers where I travel than CCS chargers)
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
    Tesla is already adding CCS connectors to their supercharger stations. I don't see a problem. Maybe when the majority of EVs will be non-Tesla in the US, they'll consider switching but for now, it is non Tesla owners who're looking for ways to charge at Tesla's stations.
  - phkahler 4y ago
    > but Tesla's connector is 10x better. People used to say the same thing about Betamax. The Tesla plug and cable weigh significantly less than the standard ones. Enough so that elderly people will have a hard time using standard vs Tesla plugs. On the technical side, the standard involves a bunch of unnecessary complexity like power-line communication ICs and TCP/IP (note, that data does NOT go over the high power conductors in the cable). >> CCS's pins appear larger, which means that they will always be able to handle more current, and thus a CCS connector will ultimately be able to charge faster than Supercharger. CSS is rated to 200A, and I believe Tesla is too. To get higher power Tesla is going to higher voltage battery with the same charging current - same conductors. This seems to be a trend as well. CSS really is crappy, but it looks like that's what we're stuck with for now.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > CSS is rated to 200A The current CCS standard is 500 amps and up to 1000 volts, so in principle up to 500 kW. Typically the fastest CCS charger you'll see these days is 350 kW. ABB's newer chargers are up to 360 kW: https://insideevs.com/news/583774/abb-installed-first-terra-360-chargers/ https://insideevs.com/news/583774/abb-installed-first-terra-... Alpitronic's new charger is up to 400 kW: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6931968770349441025/ https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6931968... Zerova's future chargers will be 480 kW: https://newatlas.com/automotive/zerova-prototype-10-minute-ev-charger/ https://newatlas.com/automotive/zerova-prototype-10-minute-e... You need an 800+ volt EV and a battery chemistry capable of taking the faster charge rate to take full advantage of the maximum kilowatts offered by these chargers. A 400 volt EV will charge at up to around 200 kW on a CCS charger (500 amps times 400 volts). The area under the charge curve tends to matter more than the peak charge rate.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
> Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. That's almost inevitable. By definition, the industry pioneer's product comes out before the standard unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution." Which is also somewhat unlikely since by that time there's a chance to improve on the design, or if the design is truly better the owner wants big licensing fees.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Tesla didn't want a fee, but they did want a patent cross-license.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Yeah, it's unlikely large established companies are willing to cross license with a small unproven one (at that time). The benefit balance is significantly asymmetrical.

by s3p 4y ago

rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago

>Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla :| annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. You didn't know? They use CCS Type-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector but Tesla's connector is 10x better. Looks at this comparison: https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... Tesla Superchargers are now equipped with CCS connectors and Tesla offers an adapter of course: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Adapter_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Ad...

itsoktocry 4y ago
>Tesla's connector is 10x better It's smaller? What makes it so much better that you would be happy having to carry an adapter around with you? Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome?
- s3p 4y ago
  The difference in adapter isn't such a big deal when you're only charging at home or at a Tesla supercharger station. Things with the differing connector only come in to play when you're at a non-Tesla supercharger or wall charger, so I think people are using the adapters far less than you'd expect.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
  >Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome? No. I'm French (Tesla has a different connector for their European superchargers). I have been only using Android devices since about 2009 and I've only had USB charging plugs at my place for 12+ years. So…
- musingsole 4y ago
  While the analogy of Tesla to Apple is apt, it's ignoring the amount of industry entrenchment Tesla had to overcome to get to the point where the analogy makes sense. There's reason to suspect that Tesla's EV systems from top to bottom are referencing a much larger bulk of design material than all other competitors (as they kind of created the modern market while all other large players mostly watched). So, a standard selected by industry players who were all betting heavily against the design gambles Tesla took everyday ending in 'Y' might not be the rocksolid, consumer friendly standard it looks like at the first shake. All car companies are bad, dirty, greedy, bastards.
s3p 4y ago
Haha yes. I was very disconnected from EVs and the auto industry before working at GM. Either way it's just surprising they didn't help design the standard and work to make it better.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
  >Either way it's just surprising they didn't help design the standard and work to make it better. Oh so you have a good deal to learn. You should start with - Who Killed the Electric Car? (2006 film) - Revenge of the Electric Car (2011 follow up) Let me tell you that when Tesla entered the market as a serious player, the rest of the industry did not intend to let Tesla have their say nor to collaborate with them. Tesla had to make their own (better) design and find their way through. They could not wait for standardization when the rest of the industry was fighting tooth and nails against the transition to EV.
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    “Who Killed the Electric Car?” was a hit piece that has not aged well as GM has embraced EVs and is on their way to being a major EV manufacturer.
    - nebula8804 4y ago
      How has it not aged well? It documents what happened when GM killed the EV1 by interviewing the former people involved with the program. (Some of which went on to Tesla.)
      - Tagbert 4y ago
        It is mainly brought up today to claim that GM is somehow opposed to EVs. The actual story becomes secondary. I’ve seen this in countless discussions of EVs.
        bhauer 4y ago
        But here it was brought up to provide context for why Tesla had to go it alone in creating a charging network and connector. And to provide some useful context when digesting what amounts to a GM press release from The Verge. If you're not aware of GM's past with electric cars, you might afford them too much trust in the present. Not to say they deserve exclusively disdain, but they need to continue to (re)earn trust by actually executing rather than talking.
gwbas1c 4y ago
> but Tesla's connector is 10x better. People used to say the same thing about Betamax. Betamax's smaller size ultimately was why it failed in the marketplace; VHS would always have a longer recording time because the cassette was physically larger and could hold more tape. CCS's pins appear larger, which means that they will always be able to handle more current, and thus a CCS connector will ultimately be able to charge faster than Supercharger. (And I say this owning a Tesla, and ordering a 2nd one last night. There's many more Superchargers where I travel than CCS chargers)
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
  Tesla is already adding CCS connectors to their supercharger stations. I don't see a problem. Maybe when the majority of EVs will be non-Tesla in the US, they'll consider switching but for now, it is non Tesla owners who're looking for ways to charge at Tesla's stations.
- phkahler 4y ago
  > but Tesla's connector is 10x better. People used to say the same thing about Betamax. The Tesla plug and cable weigh significantly less than the standard ones. Enough so that elderly people will have a hard time using standard vs Tesla plugs. On the technical side, the standard involves a bunch of unnecessary complexity like power-line communication ICs and TCP/IP (note, that data does NOT go over the high power conductors in the cable). >> CCS's pins appear larger, which means that they will always be able to handle more current, and thus a CCS connector will ultimately be able to charge faster than Supercharger. CSS is rated to 200A, and I believe Tesla is too. To get higher power Tesla is going to higher voltage battery with the same charging current - same conductors. This seems to be a trend as well. CSS really is crappy, but it looks like that's what we're stuck with for now.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > CSS is rated to 200A The current CCS standard is 500 amps and up to 1000 volts, so in principle up to 500 kW. Typically the fastest CCS charger you'll see these days is 350 kW. ABB's newer chargers are up to 360 kW: https://insideevs.com/news/583774/abb-installed-first-terra-360-chargers/ https://insideevs.com/news/583774/abb-installed-first-terra-... Alpitronic's new charger is up to 400 kW: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6931968770349441025/ https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6931968... Zerova's future chargers will be 480 kW: https://newatlas.com/automotive/zerova-prototype-10-minute-ev-charger/ https://newatlas.com/automotive/zerova-prototype-10-minute-e... You need an 800+ volt EV and a battery chemistry capable of taking the faster charge rate to take full advantage of the maximum kilowatts offered by these chargers. A 400 volt EV will charge at up to around 200 kW on a CCS charger (500 amps times 400 volts). The area under the charge curve tends to matter more than the peak charge rate.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

> Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. That's almost inevitable. By definition, the industry pioneer's product comes out before the standard unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution.

giantg2 4y ago
"unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution." Which is also somewhat unlikely since by that time there's a chance to improve on the design, or if the design is truly better the owner wants big licensing fees.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Tesla didn't want a fee, but they did want a patent cross-license.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Yeah, it's unlikely large established companies are willing to cross license with a small unproven one (at that time). The benefit balance is significantly asymmetrical.