6 ms·

GM created a new energy business to sell batteries and solar panels

61 points by clouddrover 4y ago

newaccount2021 4y ago
s3p 4y ago
As a (very recently) former GM employee, this is really exciting. The new division is created almost entirely of engineers, many poached from Tesla, Shell, and other energy industry players. Not to sound like a talking head for the company but these programs have been in the works for a while and if they actually come off the ground it would be a huge win for customers (and a big loss for utilities & corps that only make combustion engine vehicles). A misconception here is that we're directly competing with Tesla on all business fronts. That's not entirely true. GM wants to become an administrator of a hardware ecosystem which can include a GM EV or an EV made by somebody else. Most of GM Energy's home hardware will be compatible with 3rd parties. Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla. Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. Edit: spelling
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
  >Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla :| annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. You didn't know? They use CCS Type-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector but Tesla's connector is 10x better. Looks at this comparison: https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... Tesla Superchargers are now equipped with CCS connectors and Tesla offers an adapter of course: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Adapter_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Ad...
  - itsoktocry 4y ago
    >Tesla's connector is 10x better It's smaller? What makes it so much better that you would be happy having to carry an adapter around with you? Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome?
    - s3p 4y ago
      The difference in adapter isn't such a big deal when you're only charging at home or at a Tesla supercharger station. Things with the differing connector only come in to play when you're at a non-Tesla supercharger or wall charger, so I think people are using the adapters far less than you'd expect.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
      >Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome? No. I'm French (Tesla has a different connector for their European superchargers). I have been only using Android devices since about 2009 and I've only had USB charging plugs at my place for 12+ years. So…
    - musingsole 4y ago
      While the analogy of Tesla to Apple is apt, it's ignoring the amount of industry entrenchment Tesla had to overcome to get to the point where the analogy makes sense. There's reason to suspect that Tesla's EV systems from top to bottom are referencing a much larger bulk of design material than all other competitors (as they kind of created the modern market while all other large players mostly watched). So, a standard selected by industry players who were all betting heavily against the design gambles Tesla took everyday ending in 'Y' might not be the rocksolid, consumer friendly standard it looks like at the first shake. All car companies are bad, dirty, greedy, bastards.
  - s3p 4y ago
    Haha yes. I was very disconnected from EVs and the auto industry before working at GM. Either way it's just surprising they didn't help design the standard and work to make it better.
    - 4y ago
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  > Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. That's almost inevitable. By definition, the industry pioneer's product comes out before the standard unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution." Which is also somewhat unlikely since by that time there's a chance to improve on the design, or if the design is truly better the owner wants big licensing fees.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Tesla didn't want a fee, but they did want a patent cross-license.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        Yeah, it's unlikely large established companies are willing to cross license with a small unproven one (at that time). The benefit balance is significantly asymmetrical.
kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
Good for GM, and good for the US.
adabyron 4y ago
Trying to understand in my head * Is Tesla so far ahead of competition that they are all trying to copy their playbook a decade after? * In a supply constrained environment, can GM pull this off being a late mover? * GM may have current administration advantage for at least 2 more years over Tesla & foreign companies. * Are there any late mover advantages GM has here? * GM is without question a much cheaper investment than TSLA when looking at P/E ratio.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  I think the key argument, which is not acknowledged in the article, is that the recent Inflation Reduction Act has quite dramatically improved the unit economics of producing solar panels and batteries to the point of it literally being more economical to manufacture things in the US. It would be a sensible area to invest in regardless of Tesla if you think you have the capability to play in that space.
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    Any risk of WTO lawsuits? I know the Korean and Japanese auto companies are considering suing due to some advantages that the incumbent auto manufacturers have in the bill. I suspect there will be carve outs for every foreign company that complains.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      No idea, but interesting question. I would guess not on the issue of solar panels as that's too distant. Maybe an argument could be made for the batteries? I don't know the bill in sufficient detail.
- maxsilver 4y ago
  > Is Tesla so far ahead of competition that they are all trying to copy their playbook a decade after? I'm not sure Tesla is "far ahead" of the competition, so much as they announce stuff earlier and attract more hype and fanfare. (Compare Cybertruck to the Silverado EV, for example -- Tesla was years earlier in announcement and parties, but only a few months off from each other in likely actual ship date. Similarly, Tesla has been announcing/mentioning the 'Model 3' as their 'affordable family car' as far back as like 2008, but the Bolt EV actually shipped in late 2016, and the comparable Tesla Model 3 didn't ship until mid 2017). In terms of "why enter the energy business", it's an easy "nearly freebie" line of business if your building EV's already. (Like how Starbucks slowly added food to their menu, as McDonalds slowly added fancy coffees). Nissan, for example, launched the Leaf EV in 2010, and has been dabbling in home energy since at least 2015 or so. > Are there any late mover advantages GM has here? GM has a fleet of support infrastructure in place, as well as trustworthy guarantees on replacement parts and service. Tesla historically has done the opposite, preferring a more Apple-like proprietary parts and vertically-integrated labour network. That difference may not matter much on consumer electronics, but when your buying 10+yr long vehicles or bolting things to your house with 20+ yr lifespan expectations, it may factor in a lot more.
phkahler 4y ago
Most people with an EV will be fine with a simple 19kW AC charger in their garage. No batteries or solar required. Vehicle-to-home or V2G is also something that nobody cares about in the residential world, and only in certain commercial areas. Solar and batteries I get, but that's actually quite independent of electric cars.
- conjecTech 4y ago
  An EV is a huge battery on wheels. And typically it's far cheaper per kwh than dedicated solutions. Combining the two is a fantastic source of economies and convenience. I'm sure a lot of people in California would have appreciated the optionality of V2G this summer when there was a threat of blackout and PGE was paying $2/kwh for people to supply the grid from their local storage.
  - ianai 4y ago
    It’s got to be a good synergy for certain fleet type vehicles too.
- krallja 4y ago
  19kW is 80A@240V, which is just an absurd amount of power. Almost everyone will be fine with less than half that (9.6kW = 40A@240V, the max you are allowed to push continuously through a NEMA plug), and at least in the U.S. is the standard "EV-ready" plug: NEMA 14-50. A lot of people will be just peachy with the 1500W of Level 1!
  - phpthrowaway99 4y ago
    1500 watts of Level 1 would recharge a Tesla after a weekend road trip in.... 3 days?
    - krallja 4y ago
      Yes. Are you planning on taking another weekend road trip in less than three days? If not, L1 is still fine. You don't need to keep the battery 100% full all the time, just like you don't need your gas tank at F all the time.
et2o 4y ago
I don’t fully understand the appeal from the manufacturers’ side for in-home batteries and solar. We don’t expect houses to have their own coal powerplants or nuclear generators; why is renewable energy different? Single family housing is becoming a smaller segment of the market as time goes on; those who rent apartments or own condominiums have little say in how their electricity is delivered as well.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- speedylight 4y ago
  I feel like you’re comparing Apple’s to Oranges, it’s much more reasonable to have a solar panel mounted on a house than most other power sources mainly because it’s passive, it doesn’t have any emissions as far as I know, it doesn’t make any noise, they’re not obtrusive other than being ugly to look at. Solar installed directly on a house also means you’re not using any extra land like you would a solar farm, and if you have solar panels installed then you will need a battery to store that power unless you’re feeding to a grid to store off site. And I think one of the lesser discussed benefits of solar is it decentralizes the power grid so a hypothetical attack on infrastructure would be much harder to pull off. Heck even a small wind turbine could probably be integrated into most homes with no major problems, but that’s just my opinion.
  - Arrath 4y ago
    Yeah, my roof is free real estate as far as solar power is concerned and I would absolutely consider installing panels on my roof, if I owned. I wouldn't consider putting in a micro-coal or micro-NG power plant, if such things existed.
- ldbooth 4y ago
  People install solar panels when the levelized cost of electricity is cheaper than buying from the utility. This is about the cost of fueling the vehicle. Energy presents a new market to sell goods and services into, they don't want 3rd parties to control the ecosystem after the vehicle sale. There's a battle for home energy ecosystem control playing out today. See Enphase's full product offering for an example.
krallja 4y ago
"At that moment, that electrification moment, they have to decide how they’re going to run that vehicle." No, you don't. You use the L1 charger that comes by default with the car. Later, if you decide you want a faster charger, you put in a NEMA 14-50 and keep using the grid. When you get sick of the power bill, you upgrade to solar panels. When the solar panels don't work in a winter outage, you upgrade to batteries. You don't have to do _any_ of this stuff to successfully own an EV.
iso1337 4y ago
LFP batteries are the future for home energy storage. Less fire risk, cheaper. They're heavier, but that's totally fine for a stationary application. Does GM have any competency in this area?
jdhn 4y ago
I support this as more entrants into home energy solutions can only serve to make products better at a lower cost, but at the same time I'll remain hesitant to partake in any of their products until reviews come in, especially around the UX related to all of this.

61 points by clouddrover 4y ago

newaccount2021 4y ago

s3p 4y ago

As a (very recently) former GM employee, this is really exciting. The new division is created almost entirely of engineers, many poached from Tesla, Shell, and other energy industry players. Not to sound like a talking head for the company but these programs have been in the works for a while and if they actually come off the ground it would be a huge win for customers (and a big loss for utilities & corps that only make combustion engine vehicles). A misconception here is that we're directly competing with Tesla on all business fronts. That's not entirely true. GM wants to become an administrator of a hardware ecosystem which can include a GM EV or an EV made by somebody else. Most of GM Energy's home hardware will be compatible with 3rd parties. Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla. Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. Edit: spelling

rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
>Also: I recently learned that Ford, GM, and the rest of the industry all use the same plug for their EVs. The only odd one out is.. Tesla :| annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. You didn't know? They use CCS Type-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector but Tesla's connector is 10x better. Looks at this comparison: https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... Tesla Superchargers are now equipped with CCS connectors and Tesla offers an adapter of course: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Adapter_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Ad...
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >Tesla's connector is 10x better It's smaller? What makes it so much better that you would be happy having to carry an adapter around with you? Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome?
  - s3p 4y ago
    The difference in adapter isn't such a big deal when you're only charging at home or at a Tesla supercharger station. Things with the differing connector only come in to play when you're at a non-Tesla supercharger or wall charger, so I think people are using the adapters far less than you'd expect.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
    >Is this Apple Stockholm Syndrome? No. I'm French (Tesla has a different connector for their European superchargers). I have been only using Android devices since about 2009 and I've only had USB charging plugs at my place for 12+ years. So…
  - musingsole 4y ago
    While the analogy of Tesla to Apple is apt, it's ignoring the amount of industry entrenchment Tesla had to overcome to get to the point where the analogy makes sense. There's reason to suspect that Tesla's EV systems from top to bottom are referencing a much larger bulk of design material than all other competitors (as they kind of created the modern market while all other large players mostly watched). So, a standard selected by industry players who were all betting heavily against the design gambles Tesla took everyday ending in 'Y' might not be the rocksolid, consumer friendly standard it looks like at the first shake. All car companies are bad, dirty, greedy, bastards.
- s3p 4y ago
  Haha yes. I was very disconnected from EVs and the auto industry before working at GM. Either way it's just surprising they didn't help design the standard and work to make it better.
  - 4y ago
bryanlarsen 4y ago
> Annoying that the industry pioneer would also be the one who bucks its standards. That's almost inevitable. By definition, the industry pioneer's product comes out before the standard unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "unless the industry standardizes on the pioneer's solution." Which is also somewhat unlikely since by that time there's a chance to improve on the design, or if the design is truly better the owner wants big licensing fees.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Tesla didn't want a fee, but they did want a patent cross-license.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Yeah, it's unlikely large established companies are willing to cross license with a small unproven one (at that time). The benefit balance is significantly asymmetrical.

kwertyoowiyop 4y ago

Good for GM, and good for the US.

adabyron 4y ago

Trying to understand in my head * Is Tesla so far ahead of competition that they are all trying to copy their playbook a decade after? * In a supply constrained environment, can GM pull this off being a late mover? * GM may have current administration advantage for at least 2 more years over Tesla & foreign companies. * Are there any late mover advantages GM has here? * GM is without question a much cheaper investment than TSLA when looking at P/E ratio.

spywaregorilla 4y ago
I think the key argument, which is not acknowledged in the article, is that the recent Inflation Reduction Act has quite dramatically improved the unit economics of producing solar panels and batteries to the point of it literally being more economical to manufacture things in the US. It would be a sensible area to invest in regardless of Tesla if you think you have the capability to play in that space.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  Any risk of WTO lawsuits? I know the Korean and Japanese auto companies are considering suing due to some advantages that the incumbent auto manufacturers have in the bill. I suspect there will be carve outs for every foreign company that complains.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    No idea, but interesting question. I would guess not on the issue of solar panels as that's too distant. Maybe an argument could be made for the batteries? I don't know the bill in sufficient detail.
maxsilver 4y ago
> Is Tesla so far ahead of competition that they are all trying to copy their playbook a decade after? I'm not sure Tesla is "far ahead" of the competition, so much as they announce stuff earlier and attract more hype and fanfare. (Compare Cybertruck to the Silverado EV, for example -- Tesla was years earlier in announcement and parties, but only a few months off from each other in likely actual ship date. Similarly, Tesla has been announcing/mentioning the 'Model 3' as their 'affordable family car' as far back as like 2008, but the Bolt EV actually shipped in late 2016, and the comparable Tesla Model 3 didn't ship until mid 2017). In terms of "why enter the energy business", it's an easy "nearly freebie" line of business if your building EV's already. (Like how Starbucks slowly added food to their menu, as McDonalds slowly added fancy coffees). Nissan, for example, launched the Leaf EV in 2010, and has been dabbling in home energy since at least 2015 or so. > Are there any late mover advantages GM has here? GM has a fleet of support infrastructure in place, as well as trustworthy guarantees on replacement parts and service. Tesla historically has done the opposite, preferring a more Apple-like proprietary parts and vertically-integrated labour network. That difference may not matter much on consumer electronics, but when your buying 10+yr long vehicles or bolting things to your house with 20+ yr lifespan expectations, it may factor in a lot more.

phkahler 4y ago

Most people with an EV will be fine with a simple 19kW AC charger in their garage. No batteries or solar required. Vehicle-to-home or V2G is also something that nobody cares about in the residential world, and only in certain commercial areas. Solar and batteries I get, but that's actually quite independent of electric cars.

conjecTech 4y ago
An EV is a huge battery on wheels. And typically it's far cheaper per kwh than dedicated solutions. Combining the two is a fantastic source of economies and convenience. I'm sure a lot of people in California would have appreciated the optionality of V2G this summer when there was a threat of blackout and PGE was paying $2/kwh for people to supply the grid from their local storage.
- ianai 4y ago
  It’s got to be a good synergy for certain fleet type vehicles too.
krallja 4y ago
19kW is 80A@240V, which is just an absurd amount of power. Almost everyone will be fine with less than half that (9.6kW = 40A@240V, the max you are allowed to push continuously through a NEMA plug), and at least in the U.S. is the standard "EV-ready" plug: NEMA 14-50. A lot of people will be just peachy with the 1500W of Level 1!
- phpthrowaway99 4y ago
  1500 watts of Level 1 would recharge a Tesla after a weekend road trip in.... 3 days?
  - krallja 4y ago
    Yes. Are you planning on taking another weekend road trip in less than three days? If not, L1 is still fine. You don't need to keep the battery 100% full all the time, just like you don't need your gas tank at F all the time.

et2o 4y ago

I don’t fully understand the appeal from the manufacturers’ side for in-home batteries and solar. We don’t expect houses to have their own coal powerplants or nuclear generators; why is renewable energy different? Single family housing is becoming a smaller segment of the market as time goes on; those who rent apartments or own condominiums have little say in how their electricity is delivered as well.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
speedylight 4y ago
I feel like you’re comparing Apple’s to Oranges, it’s much more reasonable to have a solar panel mounted on a house than most other power sources mainly because it’s passive, it doesn’t have any emissions as far as I know, it doesn’t make any noise, they’re not obtrusive other than being ugly to look at. Solar installed directly on a house also means you’re not using any extra land like you would a solar farm, and if you have solar panels installed then you will need a battery to store that power unless you’re feeding to a grid to store off site. And I think one of the lesser discussed benefits of solar is it decentralizes the power grid so a hypothetical attack on infrastructure would be much harder to pull off. Heck even a small wind turbine could probably be integrated into most homes with no major problems, but that’s just my opinion.
- Arrath 4y ago
  Yeah, my roof is free real estate as far as solar power is concerned and I would absolutely consider installing panels on my roof, if I owned. I wouldn't consider putting in a micro-coal or micro-NG power plant, if such things existed.
ldbooth 4y ago
People install solar panels when the levelized cost of electricity is cheaper than buying from the utility. This is about the cost of fueling the vehicle. Energy presents a new market to sell goods and services into, they don't want 3rd parties to control the ecosystem after the vehicle sale. There's a battle for home energy ecosystem control playing out today. See Enphase's full product offering for an example.

krallja 4y ago

"At that moment, that electrification moment, they have to decide how they’re going to run that vehicle." No, you don't. You use the L1 charger that comes by default with the car. Later, if you decide you want a faster charger, you put in a NEMA 14-50 and keep using the grid. When you get sick of the power bill, you upgrade to solar panels. When the solar panels don't work in a winter outage, you upgrade to batteries. You don't have to do _any_ of this stuff to successfully own an EV.

iso1337 4y ago

LFP batteries are the future for home energy storage. Less fire risk, cheaper. They're heavier, but that's totally fine for a stationary application. Does GM have any competency in this area?

jdhn 4y ago

I support this as more entrants into home energy solutions can only serve to make products better at a lower cost, but at the same time I'll remain hesitant to partake in any of their products until reviews come in, especially around the UX related to all of this.