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Worst possible conditions? Seriously? It’s the worst conditions that can possibly exist. Nothing could be worse than being in a prison in the United States? On

Worst possible conditions? Seriously? It’s the worst conditions that can possibly exist. Nothing could be worse than being in a prison in the United States? On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. It’s not a vacation, it’s jail.

gambiting 4y ago
I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". So no, they are not "the" worst conditions imaginable, but they are as bad as the system allows. Which is still pretty bad. >>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. No one is arguing against that. The problem is that prison populations are being used for profit making - anyone can contract with a prison to use their labour to make whatever thing you want to do or make. So companies use prisoners to make products that they then sell for profit. Which obviously creates perverse incentives for prisons to have a large workforce they can hire out for profit. No one is arguing against using prisoners to clear out public pathways or whatever. >> It’s not a vacation, it’s jail. Also, I just want to say I'm not a fan of this argument because people use it to excuse all kinds of things. "People get beaten up in prison? It's not a vacation, it's jail". "Prison rape happens? It's not a vacation, it's jail". And so on and so on. Like, yeah, it's not a vacation, but a basic standard of human dignity should be allowed.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  >>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. > No one is arguing against that. There's nothing wrong with arguing against that, and there are plenty of people who argue against that.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    Sure, and I mean even I can make some convincing arguments against it too - but(in my experience) that's not what most arguments are about, it's about the profit motive and exploitation, not about "putting people to work on public works projects". Maybe I shouldn't have said "no one", that's my bad.
- dolni 4y ago
  > I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". Why should conditions be any better than what is legally required? If you have a problem with what the law requires, fine. The law should describe some reasonable standard. But making jail conditions "better" doesn't happen by magic. It requires effort and it costs money.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    Ah yes, perfect riposte, scold the person with no legislative power about how they just have to change the law.
    - dolni 4y ago
      As opposed to cheering on the person who has no power to change prison conditions? Perfect riposte, indeed.
  - JulianChastain 4y ago
    Do you think the purpose of prison is primarily to rehabilitate prisoners into society or to give just, deserved punishment for offenses to society? If you agree with the former, then making conditions better than the legal baseline could humanize the prison population and increase their chances and motivation to reassimilate themselves into society. If you agree with the latter, then I don't see a good argument for bettering the conditions of prisoners. From a basic utilitarian standpoint, it seems very clear that policy guided by the the rehabilitation principle will result in better outcomes than policy guided by the punishment principles.
    - dolni 4y ago
      I agree with neither of your false dichotomy points. The purpose of prison, first and foremost, is to protect society from people who are dangerous. Rehabilitation is secondary to that. Additionally it is important to call out that humane does not mean nice or pleasant. Prison does not need to be cruel. But it should absolutely not be something that people enjoy, because then you create perverse incentives.
EdwardDiego 4y ago
Because private sector contractors can't compete with near-free forced labour. It undermines the free market.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  It also creates a perverse incentive for the justice system to incarcerate people so there is more forced labor.
hobs 4y ago
Are you under the impression that working on public works and construction in general is a "vacation"? Your thought process implies that you want even harsher conditions for prisoners that regularly are starved, show up in cells dead from lack of water or beaten and left to die, where rape is used a joke, and recidivism increases because we refuse to hire or integrate people into our society post crime. How much torture should people endure to satisfy your need for punishment?
denton-scratch 4y ago
> It’s not a vacation, it’s jail. The punishment is deprivation of liberty. I regard that as already an extreme punishment, entailing as it does the loss of your job, and like as not the loss of your family. You are also deprived of the means to defend yourself, despite being surrounded by violent people who wish you harm. I don't think anyone should ever be incarcerated, unless there is no choice - i.e. for the protection of society. I findit remarkable that a country that proclaims itself as the beacon of capitalism, skews the labour market by hiring-out compelled, unpaid labourers. That's not how I was taught that well-regulated markets are supposed to work.
- imtringued 4y ago
  Capitalism isn't about playing fair and having efficient markets, it is about finding an exploit and dominating the economy.
alkonaut 4y ago
> Nothing could be worse than being in a prison in the United States? When taking a dump on the US, whether it's the rate of maternal death, incarcerations, prison conditions or school shootings or whatever, it's usually only relevant to compare to a subset of rich and democratic countries. Of course there are places with more murders and worse prisons. The question is if it's reasonable that the country with one of the highest GDPs per capita and the best universities in the world does.
- uni_rule 4y ago
  It's just further proof that we should be able to do better yet just "don't".
- AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
- surement 4y ago
  Japan has way more brutal prisons, but you can also leave your bicycle unlocked outside of your office building all day and reasonably expect it to still be there when you go home.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    I’m sure you are right. And of course that’s not causation in either direction.
ROTMetro 4y ago
Imagine that your boss is also your prison guard, and that his pay and bonuses are not paid based on being a prison guard but on your output. As someone who was in the Feds and and who saw the people around him forced to work even with severe injuries, sickness, COVID, because they had to meet the UNICOR contract that said they would deliver X widgets, it is literal slavery. Our COVID rules were based around UNICOR output not good COVID guidance, to the point the CDC had to take over running the prison. You can not complain, or you will be put in a cell with very intimidating guys, and your cell will be shaken down every day because you are in it and are causing trouble, which will be make clear to your cellies, and your cellies will 'have a talk' with you about causing trouble. If you continue, you will get 'diesel therapy'. Sure, you have access to the courts, once your diesel therapy is over, and 10 months later the court will start to respond, the BOP will say they changed XYZ, the court will say in that case the inmates challenge is now moot and rule against you. There was a very good LT (cop of lieutenant level) (strict, super cop type, but he followed the rules and you knew what you got, which is what you want in prison) transferred to UNICOR. He quit the BOP prior to getting his very very generous retirement package because he could no longer accept how UNICOR treated people (not inmates, people).

gambiting 4y ago

I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". So no, they are not "the" worst conditions imaginable, but they are as bad as the system allows. Which is still pretty bad. >>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. No one is arguing against that. The problem is that prison populations are being used for profit making - anyone can contract with a prison to use their labour to make whatever thing you want to do or make. So companies use prisoners to make products that they then sell for profit. Which obviously creates perverse incentives for prisons to have a large workforce they can hire out for profit. No one is arguing against using prisoners to clear out public pathways or whatever. >> It’s not a vacation, it’s jail. Also, I just want to say I'm not a fan of this argument because people use it to excuse all kinds of things. "People get beaten up in prison? It's not a vacation, it's jail". "Prison rape happens? It's not a vacation, it's jail". And so on and so on. Like, yeah, it's not a vacation, but a basic standard of human dignity should be allowed.

pessimizer 4y ago
>>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. > No one is arguing against that. There's nothing wrong with arguing against that, and there are plenty of people who argue against that.
- gambiting 4y ago
  Sure, and I mean even I can make some convincing arguments against it too - but(in my experience) that's not what most arguments are about, it's about the profit motive and exploitation, not about "putting people to work on public works projects". Maybe I shouldn't have said "no one", that's my bad.
dolni 4y ago
> I read that as "worst possible conditions as legally allowed". Why should conditions be any better than what is legally required? If you have a problem with what the law requires, fine. The law should describe some reasonable standard. But making jail conditions "better" doesn't happen by magic. It requires effort and it costs money.
- uoaei 4y ago
  Ah yes, perfect riposte, scold the person with no legislative power about how they just have to change the law.
  - dolni 4y ago
    As opposed to cheering on the person who has no power to change prison conditions? Perfect riposte, indeed.
- JulianChastain 4y ago
  Do you think the purpose of prison is primarily to rehabilitate prisoners into society or to give just, deserved punishment for offenses to society? If you agree with the former, then making conditions better than the legal baseline could humanize the prison population and increase their chances and motivation to reassimilate themselves into society. If you agree with the latter, then I don't see a good argument for bettering the conditions of prisoners. From a basic utilitarian standpoint, it seems very clear that policy guided by the the rehabilitation principle will result in better outcomes than policy guided by the punishment principles.
  - dolni 4y ago
    I agree with neither of your false dichotomy points. The purpose of prison, first and foremost, is to protect society from people who are dangerous. Rehabilitation is secondary to that. Additionally it is important to call out that humane does not mean nice or pleasant. Prison does not need to be cruel. But it should absolutely not be something that people enjoy, because then you create perverse incentives.

EdwardDiego 4y ago

Because private sector contractors can't compete with near-free forced labour. It undermines the free market.

ridgered4 4y ago
It also creates a perverse incentive for the justice system to incarcerate people so there is more forced labor.

hobs 4y ago

Are you under the impression that working on public works and construction in general is a "vacation"? Your thought process implies that you want even harsher conditions for prisoners that regularly are starved, show up in cells dead from lack of water or beaten and left to die, where rape is used a joke, and recidivism increases because we refuse to hire or integrate people into our society post crime. How much torture should people endure to satisfy your need for punishment?

denton-scratch 4y ago

> It’s not a vacation, it’s jail. The punishment is deprivation of liberty. I regard that as already an extreme punishment, entailing as it does the loss of your job, and like as not the loss of your family. You are also deprived of the means to defend yourself, despite being surrounded by violent people who wish you harm. I don't think anyone should ever be incarcerated, unless there is no choice - i.e. for the protection of society. I findit remarkable that a country that proclaims itself as the beacon of capitalism, skews the labour market by hiring-out compelled, unpaid labourers. That's not how I was taught that well-regulated markets are supposed to work.

imtringued 4y ago
Capitalism isn't about playing fair and having efficient markets, it is about finding an exploit and dominating the economy.

alkonaut 4y ago

> Nothing could be worse than being in a prison in the United States? When taking a dump on the US, whether it's the rate of maternal death, incarcerations, prison conditions or school shootings or whatever, it's usually only relevant to compare to a subset of rich and democratic countries. Of course there are places with more murders and worse prisons. The question is if it's reasonable that the country with one of the highest GDPs per capita and the best universities in the world does.

uni_rule 4y ago
It's just further proof that we should be able to do better yet just "don't".
AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
surement 4y ago
Japan has way more brutal prisons, but you can also leave your bicycle unlocked outside of your office building all day and reasonably expect it to still be there when you go home.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  I’m sure you are right. And of course that’s not causation in either direction.

ROTMetro 4y ago

Imagine that your boss is also your prison guard, and that his pay and bonuses are not paid based on being a prison guard but on your output. As someone who was in the Feds and and who saw the people around him forced to work even with severe injuries, sickness, COVID, because they had to meet the UNICOR contract that said they would deliver X widgets, it is literal slavery. Our COVID rules were based around UNICOR output not good COVID guidance, to the point the CDC had to take over running the prison. You can not complain, or you will be put in a cell with very intimidating guys, and your cell will be shaken down every day because you are in it and are causing trouble, which will be make clear to your cellies, and your cellies will 'have a talk' with you about causing trouble. If you continue, you will get 'diesel therapy'. Sure, you have access to the courts, once your diesel therapy is over, and 10 months later the court will start to respond, the BOP will say they changed XYZ, the court will say in that case the inmates challenge is now moot and rule against you. There was a very good LT (cop of lieutenant level) (strict, super cop type, but he followed the rules and you knew what you got, which is what you want in prison) transferred to UNICOR. He quit the BOP prior to getting his very very generous retirement package because he could no longer accept how UNICOR treated people (not inmates, people).