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> EchoVR has players dribbling, precisely throwing, pushing themselves off walls and even _physically jumping_ to catch a disk. I get how this can be fun (I do

> EchoVR has players dribbling, precisely throwing, pushing themselves off walls and even _physically jumping_ to catch a disk. I get how this can be fun (I do enjoy Beat Saber), for short stretches of time and if you're in decent physical condition (my knees hate crouching-heavy songs). But if you're in a wheelchair, you can't jump. You can't crouch. Heck, if you're over 40, you probably don't want to jump on a carpet with something blocking your view. Bad landings can easily result in permanent injuries. I've seen more than a few colleagues quit after-work basketball games for this very reason. So, while there's definitely a place for physical games in VR, there also needs to be a place for more Moss-like games in VR too.

marcosdumay 4y ago
> Heck, if you're over 40, you probably don't want to jump on a carpet with something blocking your view. Whoever wants to do that is thinking completely out of inexperience. 20 years olds can permanently injure themselves too, and it's not much harder.
- falcolas 4y ago
  I can't disagree with this point, at all. But I also remember my "I'm invincible" years where I did a lot of stupid shit because it was novel and/or entertaining. I'm mildly shocked that it's just my knees that I gripe about.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Yep. I don't disagree that many people will want that. I'm just saying that they shouldn't. It's not enough fun for the risk.
SebastianKra 4y ago
I think where we disagree is whether there is a large enough demand for these non-physical games. VR is selling bad enough as it is. Having seen friends drop out of VR for various reasons, I believe that the main draw, more so than immersion and more so than social presence, _is_ the physical movement. Oculus' top sellers list seems to confirm that belief. I'm not denying that there is demand outside of exergames, but contrary to the articles clickbaity headline, they're not "the point". Edit: *Currenty. This will change once VR becomes accessible and comfortable.
- falcolas 4y ago
  I'm afraid that I don't understand the link between people dropping out of VR and a lack of good games requiring physical movement. As you said yourself, the top lists are dominated by those games. Not because they're superior, but because you can already play non-physical games on other consoles (PS5/Switch/Xbox, computers, phones, etc). I'd even go so far to say that the lack of non-physical games is the biggest detriment to the continued adoption of VR. Stick with me for a moment as I reason this through. Even the most fit player can only spend an hour or two playing physical VR games. What we do when our body is exhausted from exercising in VR, yet we want to play games some more? We go play more traditional games on a monitor or TV (or phone). Why do we change which entertainment device we're using? Because the non-physical games we want to play are not available in a VR setting. We can't play angry birds, Call of Duty, Hades, Genshin Impact, or FFXIV in VR. Thus, we must have at least two consoles. Which for most people means they'll have just one console, because consoles are expensive. And logically, that means most people will go for the non-VR console, since it has more games, by several magnitudes. In contrast, if our entire library of games was available via your VR headset - even as a "you're sitting in a theater" experience - I believe many would be happy to play them there. They could get their full experience with one console.
  - SebastianKra 4y ago
    > I'm afraid that I don't understand the link between people dropping out of VR and a lack of good games requiring physical movement. My argument is, that only these physical games are what currently sells VR, while the other experiences are not worth the current drawbacks. > I'd even go so far to say that the lack of non-physical games is the biggest detriment to the continued adoption of VR. If that was true, wouldn't the available non-physical games sell far better? Without knowing the numbers, Moss, Hellblade, and Lucky's Tale all didn't seem to make a huge splash. Developers of Subnautica and Everspace have abandoned their VR versions due to lack of interest. Additionally, I've consistently seen my friends chose 2D screens for games like Payday and IL-2 over VR. Again, I want to underscore "currently". I believe in a future where VR becomes a primary display. > Even the most fit player can only spend an hour or two playing physical VR games. With this, and the sibling comments about the danger of injury, I'm a bit surprised at how cynical you are regarding the average health. I wouldn't call myself remarkably fit, but I can and have played for five hours. I'm also interested to see how all these teens fare growing up with the device. I imagine they will have an exceptional awareness of both worlds.
gernb 4y ago
This is not meant to be snarky or demeaning but it's hard to judge something has bad in general by "but if you're in a wheelchair". Most of life is not friendly to wheelchairs. My shower, my kitchen sink, the top half of my refrigerator, my car, my building (15 apartments) has only stairs. Etc.... Sure, more things designed for people with various diverse needs is awesome but a world limited to only things that work for people in wheelchairs seems like it would be very limited vs a world where we find out a way to let people in wheelchairs do everything if they want to.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  I'm not sure where you got the impression anyone was arguing for a different limited subset of VR interaction rather than a superset to allow it all to happen. Provide ALL the options. "Some options will make people sick." Ok so that option is not for them, let them turn it off again. But it might be great for someone else. Just let people be free...
Animats 4y ago
I do enjoy Beat Saber Beat Saber is one of the most popular VR games. The VR world and the real world are locked together, so everything feels right. Anything that breaks that lock is at least annoying, and nauseating to some. This is a big problem. With omnidirectional treadmills, it gets somewhat better. Phia, who has The Virtual Reality Show on Youtube, has tried some of them.[1] Phia is a VR native. She's grown up using VR. She makes videos about VR while in VR with full body tracking. Worth seeing critiques of VR from someone who really gets it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5RjAW8TV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5RjAW8TV0

marcosdumay 4y ago

> Heck, if you're over 40, you probably don't want to jump on a carpet with something blocking your view. Whoever wants to do that is thinking completely out of inexperience. 20 years olds can permanently injure themselves too, and it's not much harder.

falcolas 4y ago
I can't disagree with this point, at all. But I also remember my "I'm invincible" years where I did a lot of stupid shit because it was novel and/or entertaining. I'm mildly shocked that it's just my knees that I gripe about.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Yep. I don't disagree that many people will want that. I'm just saying that they shouldn't. It's not enough fun for the risk.

SebastianKra 4y ago

I think where we disagree is whether there is a large enough demand for these non-physical games. VR is selling bad enough as it is. Having seen friends drop out of VR for various reasons, I believe that the main draw, more so than immersion and more so than social presence, _is_ the physical movement. Oculus' top sellers list seems to confirm that belief. I'm not denying that there is demand outside of exergames, but contrary to the articles clickbaity headline, they're not "the point". Edit: *Currenty. This will change once VR becomes accessible and comfortable.

falcolas 4y ago
I'm afraid that I don't understand the link between people dropping out of VR and a lack of good games requiring physical movement. As you said yourself, the top lists are dominated by those games. Not because they're superior, but because you can already play non-physical games on other consoles (PS5/Switch/Xbox, computers, phones, etc). I'd even go so far to say that the lack of non-physical games is the biggest detriment to the continued adoption of VR. Stick with me for a moment as I reason this through. Even the most fit player can only spend an hour or two playing physical VR games. What we do when our body is exhausted from exercising in VR, yet we want to play games some more? We go play more traditional games on a monitor or TV (or phone). Why do we change which entertainment device we're using? Because the non-physical games we want to play are not available in a VR setting. We can't play angry birds, Call of Duty, Hades, Genshin Impact, or FFXIV in VR. Thus, we must have at least two consoles. Which for most people means they'll have just one console, because consoles are expensive. And logically, that means most people will go for the non-VR console, since it has more games, by several magnitudes. In contrast, if our entire library of games was available via your VR headset - even as a "you're sitting in a theater" experience - I believe many would be happy to play them there. They could get their full experience with one console.
- SebastianKra 4y ago
  > I'm afraid that I don't understand the link between people dropping out of VR and a lack of good games requiring physical movement. My argument is, that only these physical games are what currently sells VR, while the other experiences are not worth the current drawbacks. > I'd even go so far to say that the lack of non-physical games is the biggest detriment to the continued adoption of VR. If that was true, wouldn't the available non-physical games sell far better? Without knowing the numbers, Moss, Hellblade, and Lucky's Tale all didn't seem to make a huge splash. Developers of Subnautica and Everspace have abandoned their VR versions due to lack of interest. Additionally, I've consistently seen my friends chose 2D screens for games like Payday and IL-2 over VR. Again, I want to underscore "currently". I believe in a future where VR becomes a primary display. > Even the most fit player can only spend an hour or two playing physical VR games. With this, and the sibling comments about the danger of injury, I'm a bit surprised at how cynical you are regarding the average health. I wouldn't call myself remarkably fit, but I can and have played for five hours. I'm also interested to see how all these teens fare growing up with the device. I imagine they will have an exceptional awareness of both worlds.

gernb 4y ago

This is not meant to be snarky or demeaning but it's hard to judge something has bad in general by "but if you're in a wheelchair". Most of life is not friendly to wheelchairs. My shower, my kitchen sink, the top half of my refrigerator, my car, my building (15 apartments) has only stairs. Etc.... Sure, more things designed for people with various diverse needs is awesome but a world limited to only things that work for people in wheelchairs seems like it would be very limited vs a world where we find out a way to let people in wheelchairs do everything if they want to.

_carbyau_ 4y ago
I'm not sure where you got the impression anyone was arguing for a different limited subset of VR interaction rather than a superset to allow it all to happen. Provide ALL the options. "Some options will make people sick." Ok so that option is not for them, let them turn it off again. But it might be great for someone else. Just let people be free...

Animats 4y ago

I do enjoy Beat Saber Beat Saber is one of the most popular VR games. The VR world and the real world are locked together, so everything feels right. Anything that breaks that lock is at least annoying, and nauseating to some. This is a big problem. With omnidirectional treadmills, it gets somewhat better. Phia, who has The Virtual Reality Show on Youtube, has tried some of them.[1] Phia is a VR native. She's grown up using VR. She makes videos about VR while in VR with full body tracking. Worth seeing critiques of VR from someone who really gets it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5RjAW8TV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5RjAW8TV0