8 ms·

I'm glad to see a code of ethics that focuses on the ethical issues related to the profession instead of trying to make an ethical code that covers every popula

I'm glad to see a code of ethics that focuses on the ethical issues related to the profession instead of trying to make an ethical code that covers every popular ethical issue in society.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
Indeed, it’s a shame that the industry still has no licensing program, like all the real professions such as law, medicine, and the trades.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  It is not shame, and we should be seeking to remove professional licensing in more areas not expand it. Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. It is prone to corruption, as all human ventures with absolute power and authority will be Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods are far superior to governmental professional licensing
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    > Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. Citations? > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods The software industry barely even has those.
    - worik 4y ago
      > > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods > The software industry barely even has those. And no accountability. When a building collapses engineers form committees and seek the cause and check to see if any engineers were to blame. When a hospital gets hacked and private patient details are made public there are no such enquiries. The computer programmers responsible for creating insecure systems are not held to account. The upshot is civil engineers get to do a good job. If they cut corners it has real word effects and they get punished. Computer programmers never get held to account so their managers insist on minimum viable products being promoted irresponsibly into vulnerable systems that expose people's data. If we cut corners it has real world effects and every body blames the users. So we never (mēh, not often) get to to good work
      - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Well put. Ethics are a double edged sword. Not only are you held to account but you can hold others to account.
      - verisimilitudes 4y ago
        The simple fact is most programmers would be too incompetent to exist in such a world.
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how programmers get trained?
        verisimilitudes 4y ago
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how people get trained, then.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The software industry has been extremely productive without any licensing program. It's hard to see what regulation could improve that. In fact, it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing, either. It ain't broke.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    > it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing Citations? edit: I found this “The effectiveness of licensing” [1], which suggests replacing licensing with mandatory registration programs (or suggestions of improvements for licensing boards). I’d be curious to see any research that advocates for removal of licensing without the addition of something else. [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Most recent is the news coming out of FL where they are arresting qualified licensed roofers who just happen to have the licenses in another state other than Florida for daring to try to help people repair their roofs after a hurricane [1]. They are not claiming he was scamming people, door poor work, or anything other than not paying the fee and kissing the ring of the local economic protection guild AKA licensing board Combination of this there are several licensed FL contractors currently being investigated for Fraud because they promised Homeowers work they never delivered. The Trades are FULL of licensed scam artists Building Contractors are by far the best example I could give. Personally I do not want to get to a situation where my Open Source Code is downloaded by someone in say California and the next thing I know I am being arrested for "Developing with out a license" Hell if there was a License requirement for development when I was a teen I likely would have never learned how to develop code in the first place, I though HN was all about equality seems odd you would promote blocking out people and only allowing in the elite. Here is your $25 pi to learn to code on, but if you want to release your code you must first pay thousands of dollars and get approval from the code guild.... No thanks [1]https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roofing-contractor-arrested-in-charlotte-county/ https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roo...
- mcrad 4y ago
  We used to require degrees. Now days "techies" are throwing around medicine and trades experts in the same analysis and we end up with low standards across the board.
commandlinefan 4y ago
I had the same thought... as somebody upstream pointed out, this is dated 1999. If it was drafted in 2022, it would probably read very differently.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  I thought that this was more recent than 1999, and it turns out it is. Was updated in 2016 [1], even though they preserved the copyright from 1999. [1] https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics
bee_rider 4y ago
It says you are supposed to be an ethical member of society generally, it just doesn't explicitly spell out every possible issue (this seems to be a sign of a good code of ethics, it is guidance for your ethical reasoning, not a set of rules to follow to the letter). 1.02, 1.07, 2.07, 4.01, and 8.07 could be seen to have some thoughts on some current hotbutton issues I guess.

I'm glad to see a code of ethics that focuses on the ethical issues related to the profession instead of trying to make an ethical code that covers every popular ethical issue in society.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago

Indeed, it’s a shame that the industry still has no licensing program, like all the real professions such as law, medicine, and the trades.

phpisthebest 4y ago
It is not shame, and we should be seeking to remove professional licensing in more areas not expand it. Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. It is prone to corruption, as all human ventures with absolute power and authority will be Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods are far superior to governmental professional licensing
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  > Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. Citations? > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods The software industry barely even has those.
  - worik 4y ago
    > > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods > The software industry barely even has those. And no accountability. When a building collapses engineers form committees and seek the cause and check to see if any engineers were to blame. When a hospital gets hacked and private patient details are made public there are no such enquiries. The computer programmers responsible for creating insecure systems are not held to account. The upshot is civil engineers get to do a good job. If they cut corners it has real word effects and they get punished. Computer programmers never get held to account so their managers insist on minimum viable products being promoted irresponsibly into vulnerable systems that expose people's data. If we cut corners it has real world effects and every body blames the users. So we never (mēh, not often) get to to good work
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
      Well put. Ethics are a double edged sword. Not only are you held to account but you can hold others to account.
    - verisimilitudes 4y ago
      The simple fact is most programmers would be too incompetent to exist in such a world.
      - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how programmers get trained?
        verisimilitudes 4y ago
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how people get trained, then.
WalterBright 4y ago
The software industry has been extremely productive without any licensing program. It's hard to see what regulation could improve that. In fact, it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing, either. It ain't broke.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  > it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing Citations? edit: I found this “The effectiveness of licensing” [1], which suggests replacing licensing with mandatory registration programs (or suggestions of improvements for licensing boards). I’d be curious to see any research that advocates for removal of licensing without the addition of something else. [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Most recent is the news coming out of FL where they are arresting qualified licensed roofers who just happen to have the licenses in another state other than Florida for daring to try to help people repair their roofs after a hurricane [1]. They are not claiming he was scamming people, door poor work, or anything other than not paying the fee and kissing the ring of the local economic protection guild AKA licensing board Combination of this there are several licensed FL contractors currently being investigated for Fraud because they promised Homeowers work they never delivered. The Trades are FULL of licensed scam artists Building Contractors are by far the best example I could give. Personally I do not want to get to a situation where my Open Source Code is downloaded by someone in say California and the next thing I know I am being arrested for "Developing with out a license" Hell if there was a License requirement for development when I was a teen I likely would have never learned how to develop code in the first place, I though HN was all about equality seems odd you would promote blocking out people and only allowing in the elite. Here is your $25 pi to learn to code on, but if you want to release your code you must first pay thousands of dollars and get approval from the code guild.... No thanks [1]https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roofing-contractor-arrested-in-charlotte-county/ https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roo...
mcrad 4y ago
We used to require degrees. Now days "techies" are throwing around medicine and trades experts in the same analysis and we end up with low standards across the board.

commandlinefan 4y ago

I had the same thought... as somebody upstream pointed out, this is dated 1999. If it was drafted in 2022, it would probably read very differently.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
I thought that this was more recent than 1999, and it turns out it is. Was updated in 2016 [1], even though they preserved the copyright from 1999. [1] https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics

bee_rider 4y ago

It says you are supposed to be an ethical member of society generally, it just doesn't explicitly spell out every possible issue (this seems to be a sign of a good code of ethics, it is guidance for your ethical reasoning, not a set of rules to follow to the letter). 1.02, 1.07, 2.07, 4.01, and 8.07 could be seen to have some thoughts on some current hotbutton issues I guess.