8 ms·

Code of Ethics – IEEE Computer Society

48 points by 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago

AnnoyedComment 4y ago
changoplatanero 4y ago
I'm glad to see a code of ethics that focuses on the ethical issues related to the profession instead of trying to make an ethical code that covers every popular ethical issue in society.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  Indeed, it’s a shame that the industry still has no licensing program, like all the real professions such as law, medicine, and the trades.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    It is not shame, and we should be seeking to remove professional licensing in more areas not expand it. Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. It is prone to corruption, as all human ventures with absolute power and authority will be Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods are far superior to governmental professional licensing
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
      > Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. Citations? > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods The software industry barely even has those.
      - worik 4y ago
        > > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods > The software industry barely even has those. And no accountability. When a building collapses engineers form committees and seek the cause and check to see if any engineers were to blame. When a hospital gets hacked and private patient details are made public there are no such enquiries. The computer programmers responsible for creating insecure systems are not held to account. The upshot is civil engineers get to do a good job. If they cut corners it has real word effects and they get punished. Computer programmers never get held to account so their managers insist on minimum viable products being promoted irresponsibly into vulnerable systems that expose people's data. If we cut corners it has real world effects and every body blames the users. So we never (mēh, not often) get to to good work
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Well put. Ethics are a double edged sword. Not only are you held to account but you can hold others to account.
        verisimilitudes 4y ago
        The simple fact is most programmers would be too incompetent to exist in such a world.
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how programmers get trained?
        verisimilitudes 4y ago
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how people get trained, then.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The software industry has been extremely productive without any licensing program. It's hard to see what regulation could improve that. In fact, it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing, either. It ain't broke.
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
      > it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing Citations? edit: I found this “The effectiveness of licensing” [1], which suggests replacing licensing with mandatory registration programs (or suggestions of improvements for licensing boards). I’d be curious to see any research that advocates for removal of licensing without the addition of something else. [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Most recent is the news coming out of FL where they are arresting qualified licensed roofers who just happen to have the licenses in another state other than Florida for daring to try to help people repair their roofs after a hurricane [1]. They are not claiming he was scamming people, door poor work, or anything other than not paying the fee and kissing the ring of the local economic protection guild AKA licensing board Combination of this there are several licensed FL contractors currently being investigated for Fraud because they promised Homeowers work they never delivered. The Trades are FULL of licensed scam artists Building Contractors are by far the best example I could give. Personally I do not want to get to a situation where my Open Source Code is downloaded by someone in say California and the next thing I know I am being arrested for "Developing with out a license" Hell if there was a License requirement for development when I was a teen I likely would have never learned how to develop code in the first place, I though HN was all about equality seems odd you would promote blocking out people and only allowing in the elite. Here is your $25 pi to learn to code on, but if you want to release your code you must first pay thousands of dollars and get approval from the code guild.... No thanks [1]https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roofing-contractor-arrested-in-charlotte-county/ https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roo...
  - mcrad 4y ago
    We used to require degrees. Now days "techies" are throwing around medicine and trades experts in the same analysis and we end up with low standards across the board.
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  I had the same thought... as somebody upstream pointed out, this is dated 1999. If it was drafted in 2022, it would probably read very differently.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    I thought that this was more recent than 1999, and it turns out it is. Was updated in 2016 [1], even though they preserved the copyright from 1999. [1] https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics
- bee_rider 4y ago
  It says you are supposed to be an ethical member of society generally, it just doesn't explicitly spell out every possible issue (this seems to be a sign of a good code of ethics, it is guidance for your ethical reasoning, not a set of rules to follow to the letter). 1.02, 1.07, 2.07, 4.01, and 8.07 could be seen to have some thoughts on some current hotbutton issues I guess.
jimbob45 4y ago
- cvwright 4y ago
  That’s pretty darn mild as far as current day politics go. Kudos to whoever fought the good fight on this one.
- klyrs 4y ago
  What's wrong with the consideration of accessibility issues? It doesn't even recommend a single iota of effort. The language even supports the maximization of inaccessibility -- "okay, thought about it*!" I'm quite curious about your use of the word "co-opted" though. Who was this co-opted from, and to what end? * a Marshall Mathers quote?
- chomp 4y ago
  Wha? So ARIA is political now?
  - freedomben 4y ago
    In the modern era where some people look to use whatever tools/power they can get to further their own goals, there is no doubt a reactive element that has arisen that embraces extreme skepticism toward anything that resembles consideration for other people. Definitely not a healthy development IMHO.
kiwih 4y ago
Reproduced here: “Software engineers shall commit themselves to making the analysis, specification, design, development, testing and maintenance of software a beneficial and respected profession. In accordance with their commitment to the health, safety and welfare of the public, software engineers shall adhere to the following Eight Principles: 1. PUBLIC – Software engineers shall act consistently with the public interest. 2. CLIENT AND EMPLOYER – Software engineers shall act in a manner that is in the best interests of their client and employer consistent with the public interest. 3. PRODUCT – Software engineers shall ensure that their products and related modifications meet the highest professional standards possible. 4. JUDGMENT – Software engineers shall maintain integrity and independence in their professional judgment. 5. MANAGEMENT – Software engineering managers and leaders shall subscribe to and promote an ethical approach to the management of software development and maintenance. 6. PROFESSION – Software engineers shall advance the integrity and reputation of the profession consistent with the public interest. 7. COLLEAGUES – Software engineers shall be fair to and supportive of their colleagues. 8. SELF – Software engineers shall participate in lifelong learning regarding the practice of their profession and shall promote an ethical approach to the practice of the profession. ”
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  Prefaced by this: “Software engineers shall commit themselves to making the analysis, specification, design, development, testing and maintenance of software a beneficial and respected profession. In accordance with their commitment to the health, safety and welfare of the public, software engineers shall adhere to the following Eight Principles:”
  - kiwih 4y ago
    Good point, this should be included as part of the text. I have updated my comment.
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
      Also prefaced by this: “The short version of the code summarizes aspirations at a high level of the abstraction; the clauses that are included in the full version give examples and details of how these aspirations change the way we act as software engineering professionals. Without the aspirations, the details can become legalistic and tedious; without the details, the aspirations can become high-sounding but empty; together, the aspirations and the details form a cohesive code.”
neilv 4y ago
The copyright date is 1999. A lot has changed since then in our practices, societal impact, and socioeconomic status. Maybe it's useful to consider that this code of ethics is what some people in 1999 were thinking about software engineering ethics, and compare&contrast with what kinds of code of ethics for software engineering we could use today.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  Then you may prefer the Code of Ethics from the ACM [1], “Copyright (c) 2018 by the Association for Computing Machinery” [1] https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  I thought that this was more recent than 1999, and it turns out it is. Was updated in 2016 [1], even though they preserved the copyright from 1999. [1] https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics
tsegratis 4y ago
> It is not intended that the individual parts of the Code be used in isolation to justify errors of omission or commission Good; an ideal to aim for rather than a judgement to be accused by > The Code is not simply for adjudicating the nature of questionable acts... Err, as far as I read it this finalizing statement is in conflict with their preamble If it is a basis to judge others, then I will also judge it: It says work in the best interest of customer and employer; but omits working in your own interest. In a zero sum game, I can best work for other's interests by taking from my own Their code of ethics also gives no model to evaluate between different actions, which is kinda important. "Adjudicating questionable acts" by only asking if they were in "The best interest of employer/etc," is a recipe for poor adjudication IMHO
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  In the preamble, they discuss that topic in depth. For brief example, “The Code is not a simple ethical algorithm that generates ethical decisions.” and “In some situations standards may be in tension with each other or with standards from other sources. These situations require the software engineer to use ethical judgment to act in a manner which is most consistent with the spirit of the Code of Ethics and Professional Practice, given the circumstances.”
  - tsegratis 4y ago
    I'm glad you like ethics. My criticisms above are not meant to say the article is bad; but that it can improve. Which is almost a truism of life "Aim for the stars" is aspirational. But you cannot judge somebody for failing to achieve it "Software engineers shall ... meet the highest professional standards possible." is aspirational. This is a good aspiration, but "shall" is the language of legalistic requirement. -- The document is aiming to do both 6.11. Recognize that violations of this Code are inconsistent with being a professional software engineer 6.13. Report significant violations of this Code to appropriate authorities... 8.09. Recognize that personal violations of this Code are inconsistent with being a professional software engineer Ouch. This is extremely legalistic, they judge people by unmeetable criteria, then do not allow judgement of their own criteria! I'm sorry...
jgeada 4y ago
Where is the code of ethics of the managers of software engineers? Most places that is where all the decision making power really lives, so it is vacuous to put onus on the underlings. And what good is a code that has no teeth? What happens when people do not behave as required by this code?
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  For all of the corporate onboarding ethics training courses I’ve participated in, not once have I seen a course on what to say to your manager when you are asked to violate your ethics.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  I suspect nobody has written a code of ethics for managers because they are mostly thought of as extensions of the company. If a manager is asking middle-class professionals to do unethical or dangerous things, the hope is that they would quickly find themselves without these kinds of employees. If a manager is asking members of the working-class to do unethical or dangerous things, the hope is that their union would throw a fit. If you have neither the moat of being hard to replace nor the moat of being part of organized labor, you are in a rough spot.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    I won’t speak for management, as MBA is pretty easy to search for on the internet, but project management does have the following: https://www.pmi.org/about/ethics/code https://www.pmi.org/about/ethics/code It does speak volumes that even PMI has links to articles such as “Being Ethical is Profitable”
- mcrad 4y ago
  Great question! And what about the distain for MBA degrees (where management ethics are taught) among so called software engineers? And what good is a code if you have to be an "underling" to follow it?
TheAceOfHearts 4y ago
It often feels like a lot of software fails to follow the first principle: > Software engineers shall act consistently with the public interest. But what can or should be done about it? It seems like it's just economic reality that software as a whole continues trending in a certain direction. For a lot of telemetry and tracking, if users were made aware of exactly what sort of data is being collected, do you think that they would still consent? It would be interesting to hear how other engineering professions have handled similar issues. Well, at least looking at the hardware world, it doesn't look like they've managed to do a great job. Repairability seems like it would clearly be in the public interest, but that feature is often ignored by many of the large hardware manufacturers. And at least with hardware manufacturers, there's always greater demands of purity and perfection. Even when a company shows up providing hardware that's more open than the alternatives, people will often just complaint that it's not open enough and refuse to buy in. But this is a battle that must be won in slow steps towards making open hardware more viable. The idealist within me feels frustrated when it comes into contact with reality. Imagine what a perfect or ideal world would look like and then ask yourself: what features would be worth fighting to bring into this reality?
Jemm 4y ago
One of my biggest complaints about the IT industry is the prevalence of scummy operators.
say_it_as_it_is 4y ago
Here come the morality police and loyalty oaths

48 points by 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago

I'm glad to see a code of ethics that focuses on the ethical issues related to the profession instead of trying to make an ethical code that covers every popular ethical issue in society.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
Indeed, it’s a shame that the industry still has no licensing program, like all the real professions such as law, medicine, and the trades.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  It is not shame, and we should be seeking to remove professional licensing in more areas not expand it. Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. It is prone to corruption, as all human ventures with absolute power and authority will be Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods are far superior to governmental professional licensing
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    > Professional licensing is pure economic protectionism and largely fails at the stated goal of promoting safety, quality, or professionalism. Citations? > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods The software industry barely even has those.
    - worik 4y ago
      > > Voluntary trade organizations, certifications and other methods > The software industry barely even has those. And no accountability. When a building collapses engineers form committees and seek the cause and check to see if any engineers were to blame. When a hospital gets hacked and private patient details are made public there are no such enquiries. The computer programmers responsible for creating insecure systems are not held to account. The upshot is civil engineers get to do a good job. If they cut corners it has real word effects and they get punished. Computer programmers never get held to account so their managers insist on minimum viable products being promoted irresponsibly into vulnerable systems that expose people's data. If we cut corners it has real world effects and every body blames the users. So we never (mēh, not often) get to to good work
      - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Well put. Ethics are a double edged sword. Not only are you held to account but you can hold others to account.
      - verisimilitudes 4y ago
        The simple fact is most programmers would be too incompetent to exist in such a world.
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how programmers get trained?
        verisimilitudes 4y ago
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
        Sounds like a problem with how people get trained, then.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The software industry has been extremely productive without any licensing program. It's hard to see what regulation could improve that. In fact, it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing, either. It ain't broke.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    > it's an argument that many other professions aren't actually benefiting from licensing Citations? edit: I found this “The effectiveness of licensing” [1], which suggests replacing licensing with mandatory registration programs (or suggestions of improvements for licensing boards). I’d be curious to see any research that advocates for removal of licensing without the addition of something else. [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01044517
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Most recent is the news coming out of FL where they are arresting qualified licensed roofers who just happen to have the licenses in another state other than Florida for daring to try to help people repair their roofs after a hurricane [1]. They are not claiming he was scamming people, door poor work, or anything other than not paying the fee and kissing the ring of the local economic protection guild AKA licensing board Combination of this there are several licensed FL contractors currently being investigated for Fraud because they promised Homeowers work they never delivered. The Trades are FULL of licensed scam artists Building Contractors are by far the best example I could give. Personally I do not want to get to a situation where my Open Source Code is downloaded by someone in say California and the next thing I know I am being arrested for "Developing with out a license" Hell if there was a License requirement for development when I was a teen I likely would have never learned how to develop code in the first place, I though HN was all about equality seems odd you would promote blocking out people and only allowing in the elite. Here is your $25 pi to learn to code on, but if you want to release your code you must first pay thousands of dollars and get approval from the code guild.... No thanks [1]https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roofing-contractor-arrested-in-charlotte-county/ https://nbc-2.com/news/local/charlotte-county/2022/10/08/roo...
- mcrad 4y ago
  We used to require degrees. Now days "techies" are throwing around medicine and trades experts in the same analysis and we end up with low standards across the board.
commandlinefan 4y ago
I had the same thought... as somebody upstream pointed out, this is dated 1999. If it was drafted in 2022, it would probably read very differently.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  I thought that this was more recent than 1999, and it turns out it is. Was updated in 2016 [1], even though they preserved the copyright from 1999. [1] https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics
bee_rider 4y ago
It says you are supposed to be an ethical member of society generally, it just doesn't explicitly spell out every possible issue (this seems to be a sign of a good code of ethics, it is guidance for your ethical reasoning, not a set of rules to follow to the letter). 1.02, 1.07, 2.07, 4.01, and 8.07 could be seen to have some thoughts on some current hotbutton issues I guess.

jimbob45 4y ago

cvwright 4y ago
That’s pretty darn mild as far as current day politics go. Kudos to whoever fought the good fight on this one.
klyrs 4y ago
What's wrong with the consideration of accessibility issues? It doesn't even recommend a single iota of effort. The language even supports the maximization of inaccessibility -- "okay, thought about it*!" I'm quite curious about your use of the word "co-opted" though. Who was this co-opted from, and to what end? * a Marshall Mathers quote?
chomp 4y ago
Wha? So ARIA is political now?
- freedomben 4y ago
  In the modern era where some people look to use whatever tools/power they can get to further their own goals, there is no doubt a reactive element that has arisen that embraces extreme skepticism toward anything that resembles consideration for other people. Definitely not a healthy development IMHO.

kiwih 4y ago

Reproduced here: “Software engineers shall commit themselves to making the analysis, specification, design, development, testing and maintenance of software a beneficial and respected profession. In accordance with their commitment to the health, safety and welfare of the public, software engineers shall adhere to the following Eight Principles: 1. PUBLIC – Software engineers shall act consistently with the public interest. 2. CLIENT AND EMPLOYER – Software engineers shall act in a manner that is in the best interests of their client and employer consistent with the public interest. 3. PRODUCT – Software engineers shall ensure that their products and related modifications meet the highest professional standards possible. 4. JUDGMENT – Software engineers shall maintain integrity and independence in their professional judgment. 5. MANAGEMENT – Software engineering managers and leaders shall subscribe to and promote an ethical approach to the management of software development and maintenance. 6. PROFESSION – Software engineers shall advance the integrity and reputation of the profession consistent with the public interest. 7. COLLEAGUES – Software engineers shall be fair to and supportive of their colleagues. 8. SELF – Software engineers shall participate in lifelong learning regarding the practice of their profession and shall promote an ethical approach to the practice of the profession. ”

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
Prefaced by this: “Software engineers shall commit themselves to making the analysis, specification, design, development, testing and maintenance of software a beneficial and respected profession. In accordance with their commitment to the health, safety and welfare of the public, software engineers shall adhere to the following Eight Principles:”
- kiwih 4y ago
  Good point, this should be included as part of the text. I have updated my comment.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    Also prefaced by this: “The short version of the code summarizes aspirations at a high level of the abstraction; the clauses that are included in the full version give examples and details of how these aspirations change the way we act as software engineering professionals. Without the aspirations, the details can become legalistic and tedious; without the details, the aspirations can become high-sounding but empty; together, the aspirations and the details form a cohesive code.”

neilv 4y ago

The copyright date is 1999. A lot has changed since then in our practices, societal impact, and socioeconomic status. Maybe it's useful to consider that this code of ethics is what some people in 1999 were thinking about software engineering ethics, and compare&contrast with what kinds of code of ethics for software engineering we could use today.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
Then you may prefer the Code of Ethics from the ACM [1], “Copyright (c) 2018 by the Association for Computing Machinery” [1] https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics
9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
I thought that this was more recent than 1999, and it turns out it is. Was updated in 2016 [1], even though they preserved the copyright from 1999. [1] https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/press-room/2016-news/code-of-ethics

tsegratis 4y ago

> It is not intended that the individual parts of the Code be used in isolation to justify errors of omission or commission Good; an ideal to aim for rather than a judgement to be accused by > The Code is not simply for adjudicating the nature of questionable acts... Err, as far as I read it this finalizing statement is in conflict with their preamble If it is a basis to judge others, then I will also judge it: It says work in the best interest of customer and employer; but omits working in your own interest. In a zero sum game, I can best work for other's interests by taking from my own Their code of ethics also gives no model to evaluate between different actions, which is kinda important. "Adjudicating questionable acts" by only asking if they were in "The best interest of employer/etc," is a recipe for poor adjudication IMHO

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
In the preamble, they discuss that topic in depth. For brief example, “The Code is not a simple ethical algorithm that generates ethical decisions.” and “In some situations standards may be in tension with each other or with standards from other sources. These situations require the software engineer to use ethical judgment to act in a manner which is most consistent with the spirit of the Code of Ethics and Professional Practice, given the circumstances.”
- tsegratis 4y ago
  I'm glad you like ethics. My criticisms above are not meant to say the article is bad; but that it can improve. Which is almost a truism of life "Aim for the stars" is aspirational. But you cannot judge somebody for failing to achieve it "Software engineers shall ... meet the highest professional standards possible." is aspirational. This is a good aspiration, but "shall" is the language of legalistic requirement. -- The document is aiming to do both 6.11. Recognize that violations of this Code are inconsistent with being a professional software engineer 6.13. Report significant violations of this Code to appropriate authorities... 8.09. Recognize that personal violations of this Code are inconsistent with being a professional software engineer Ouch. This is extremely legalistic, they judge people by unmeetable criteria, then do not allow judgement of their own criteria! I'm sorry...

jgeada 4y ago

Where is the code of ethics of the managers of software engineers? Most places that is where all the decision making power really lives, so it is vacuous to put onus on the underlings. And what good is a code that has no teeth? What happens when people do not behave as required by this code?

9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
For all of the corporate onboarding ethics training courses I’ve participated in, not once have I seen a course on what to say to your manager when you are asked to violate your ethics.
bee_rider 4y ago
I suspect nobody has written a code of ethics for managers because they are mostly thought of as extensions of the company. If a manager is asking middle-class professionals to do unethical or dangerous things, the hope is that they would quickly find themselves without these kinds of employees. If a manager is asking members of the working-class to do unethical or dangerous things, the hope is that their union would throw a fit. If you have neither the moat of being hard to replace nor the moat of being part of organized labor, you are in a rough spot.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
  I won’t speak for management, as MBA is pretty easy to search for on the internet, but project management does have the following: https://www.pmi.org/about/ethics/code https://www.pmi.org/about/ethics/code It does speak volumes that even PMI has links to articles such as “Being Ethical is Profitable”
mcrad 4y ago
Great question! And what about the distain for MBA degrees (where management ethics are taught) among so called software engineers? And what good is a code if you have to be an "underling" to follow it?

TheAceOfHearts 4y ago

It often feels like a lot of software fails to follow the first principle: > Software engineers shall act consistently with the public interest. But what can or should be done about it? It seems like it's just economic reality that software as a whole continues trending in a certain direction. For a lot of telemetry and tracking, if users were made aware of exactly what sort of data is being collected, do you think that they would still consent? It would be interesting to hear how other engineering professions have handled similar issues. Well, at least looking at the hardware world, it doesn't look like they've managed to do a great job. Repairability seems like it would clearly be in the public interest, but that feature is often ignored by many of the large hardware manufacturers. And at least with hardware manufacturers, there's always greater demands of purity and perfection. Even when a company shows up providing hardware that's more open than the alternatives, people will often just complaint that it's not open enough and refuse to buy in. But this is a battle that must be won in slow steps towards making open hardware more viable. The idealist within me feels frustrated when it comes into contact with reality. Imagine what a perfect or ideal world would look like and then ask yourself: what features would be worth fighting to bring into this reality?

Jemm 4y ago

One of my biggest complaints about the IT industry is the prevalence of scummy operators.

say_it_as_it_is 4y ago

Here come the morality police and loyalty oaths