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And that is exactly what New Zealand started doing in 2019[0]. A large problem with metrics is that they have a tendency of becoming a goal of their own. Inste

by crote 4y ago

And that is exactly what New Zealand started doing in 2019[0]. A large problem with metrics is that they have a tendency of becoming a goal of their own. Instead of them being used as mere indicators, we end up with entire countries whose sole goal is to eternally increase their GDP - to the extent that it ends up harming the general population. People do not solely exist to generate revenue, and it is about time we stop pretending they do. [0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/07/11/new-zealand-ditches-gdp-for-happiness-and-wellbeing/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/07/11/new-ze...

nerdponx 4y ago
Part of the issue (at least in public discourse) seems to be the conflation of "revenue" in the narrow sense of being measured in money, with "utility" or "value" or "welfare" in the broad sense.
warpeggio 4y ago
> A large problem with metrics is that they have a tendency of becoming a goal of their own. I read this in Project to Product: "As companies get larger and more complex, there’s a tendency to manage to proxies. This comes in many shapes and sizes, and it’s dangerous, subtle, and very Day 2. A common example is process as proxy. Good process serves you so you can serve customers. But if you’re not watchful, the process can become the thing. This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you’re doing the process right." --Jeff Bezos
- Nition 4y ago
  "It is possible, after a while, to develop certain dangerous habits of thought. One is that, while all important enterprises need careful organization, it is the organization that needs organizing, rather than the enterprise." - Terry Pratchett, from Thief of Time (2001)
s1artibartfast 4y ago
I don't think New Zealand has stopped calculating GDP. They do both now
Aunche 4y ago
> we end up with entire countries whose sole goal is to eternally increase their GDP What countries are you talking about? I don't know of a single country that does this.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  China for the longest time judged officials based on how much they were hitting or exceeding GDP targets set out in the 5 year plans. This has become less so only fairly recently.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    Clearly China's sole goal isn't GDP growth when they're still trying to pursue zero-covid.
    - JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
      Dying is very bad for GDP. >We confirm that both mortality and morbidity have a negative effect on GDP per capita growth. The effect of reducing mortality by 10 percent is that of adding at least 9.6 percentage points to GDP per capita growth over a period of about one quarter century, according to [13] bounding strategy.
      - MaxHoppersGhost 4y ago
        Eternal lockdowns and keeping kids from going to school also has an impact on GDP/productivity.
      - Aunche 4y ago
        That's a general trend. Obviously it's not going to apply to every case. Usually, reducing mortality is about improving healthcare and nutrition, especially during the period your study tracked (1990-2014). Keeping working age people healthy is obviously going to increase their productivity. This is very different from shutting down an entire city due to a few dozen Covid cases.
trendroid 4y ago
>A large problem with metrics is that they have a tendency of becoming a goal of their own. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
mr_toad 4y ago
> we end up with entire countries whose sole goal is to eternally increase their GDP This is a pernicious straw-man. No county focuses only on GDP. No government focuses only on GDP. Unemployment, interest rates, inflation, balance of payments, national debt etc, are all prominent indicators in any economy. And show me a country that doesn’t also measure educational achievement, crime rates, divorce statistics, birth rates, suicides, alcohol consumption… the list is endless. The only people who want an alternative to GDP are the ones who mistakenly think that the economy or society can be summed up in a single measure.
- rongopo 4y ago
  I strongly disagree, the world is governed on the basis of GDP measurement.

by crote 4y ago

nerdponx 4y ago

Part of the issue (at least in public discourse) seems to be the conflation of "revenue" in the narrow sense of being measured in money, with "utility" or "value" or "welfare" in the broad sense.

warpeggio 4y ago

> A large problem with metrics is that they have a tendency of becoming a goal of their own. I read this in Project to Product: "As companies get larger and more complex, there’s a tendency to manage to proxies. This comes in many shapes and sizes, and it’s dangerous, subtle, and very Day 2. A common example is process as proxy. Good process serves you so you can serve customers. But if you’re not watchful, the process can become the thing. This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you’re doing the process right." --Jeff Bezos

Nition 4y ago
"It is possible, after a while, to develop certain dangerous habits of thought. One is that, while all important enterprises need careful organization, it is the organization that needs organizing, rather than the enterprise." - Terry Pratchett, from Thief of Time (2001)

s1artibartfast 4y ago

I don't think New Zealand has stopped calculating GDP. They do both now

Aunche 4y ago

> we end up with entire countries whose sole goal is to eternally increase their GDP What countries are you talking about? I don't know of a single country that does this.

bobthepanda 4y ago
China for the longest time judged officials based on how much they were hitting or exceeding GDP targets set out in the 5 year plans. This has become less so only fairly recently.
- Aunche 4y ago
  Clearly China's sole goal isn't GDP growth when they're still trying to pursue zero-covid.
  - JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
    Dying is very bad for GDP. >We confirm that both mortality and morbidity have a negative effect on GDP per capita growth. The effect of reducing mortality by 10 percent is that of adding at least 9.6 percentage points to GDP per capita growth over a period of about one quarter century, according to [13] bounding strategy.
    - MaxHoppersGhost 4y ago
      Eternal lockdowns and keeping kids from going to school also has an impact on GDP/productivity.
    - Aunche 4y ago
      That's a general trend. Obviously it's not going to apply to every case. Usually, reducing mortality is about improving healthcare and nutrition, especially during the period your study tracked (1990-2014). Keeping working age people healthy is obviously going to increase their productivity. This is very different from shutting down an entire city due to a few dozen Covid cases.

trendroid 4y ago

>A large problem with metrics is that they have a tendency of becoming a goal of their own. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

mr_toad 4y ago

> we end up with entire countries whose sole goal is to eternally increase their GDP This is a pernicious straw-man. No county focuses only on GDP. No government focuses only on GDP. Unemployment, interest rates, inflation, balance of payments, national debt etc, are all prominent indicators in any economy. And show me a country that doesn’t also measure educational achievement, crime rates, divorce statistics, birth rates, suicides, alcohol consumption… the list is endless. The only people who want an alternative to GDP are the ones who mistakenly think that the economy or society can be summed up in a single measure.

rongopo 4y ago
I strongly disagree, the world is governed on the basis of GDP measurement.