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Show HN: Nomad, a no fee Airbnb competitor. Any investors here?
- nomadpass 4y agoAm hoping some investor who may be lurking here might want to participate in our seed round. We have gotten some offers last week of 1.5-2m for 15% but terms not founder friendly. We can email/fax proof if necessary to prove it. Hoping the HN community can come to the rescue :)
- cornellwright 4y agoI'm not a lawyer, but be careful about general solicitation of investment.
- severine 4y agoSEC link: https://www.sec.gov/education/capitalraising/building-blocks/general-solicitation https://www.sec.gov/education/capitalraising/building-blocks...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- FerociousTimes 4y agoIsn't this sort of a roadshow but aimed instead at angel investors and not the usual pre-IPO investors?
- postingawayonhn 4y agoI'd take that deal while it's still on the table.
- nomadpass 4y agoThank you, I am considering it. It was 2m for 15%. But terms are not founder friendly.
- postingawayonhn 4y agoI don't imagine they would be with a fairly high-risk idea like this.
- nomadpass 4y agoAirbnb was high risk also in 2009...it may seem obvious now, but back then having someone stay in your house wasn't so obvious was it?
- postingawayonhn 4y agoYes, but high risk in a different way. Airbnb was high risk because it was a largely unproven business model. Nomad is high risk because it is entering a very crowded market without a killer feature.
- shagie 4y agohttps://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/smallbusiness/1003/gallery.startup_cash_now/ https://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/smallbusiness/1003/gall... Funding: Cereal sales; Y Combinator incubator Amount raised: $30,000 from cereal; $20,000 from Y Combinator Launched: August 2008 > Months later, the AirbnB team was accepted by the Y Combinator incubator, which gave them three months of support and training and an additional $20,000 to fly to New York -- their biggest market at the time -- to meet users, throw launch parties and promote the site. By the time they exited the incubator and presented their project to investors, AirBnB was profitable. In return, Y Combinator took an equity stake in the company. AirBnB's founders won't say exactly how much they gave up, but Y Combinator's typical deals involve a 2% to 10% stake. The business model was valid before YC noticed them and they were profitable when they left after the incubator.
- 4y ago
- cvhashim 4y agoNo offense OP, but that’s a lot of money for a website with poor UX and no users. Take the money offered.
- OrangeMonkey 4y agoI like people who start companies. It shows a level of drive/passion that I think makes the world a better place. So thanks! In this particular case, airbnb is having issues as people are starting to run away from them. Having a pitch that is 'basically airbnb but we dont charge money' during a macro-event where companies are trying to focus less on growth and more on maximizing cash flow... this is going to be a hard sell. I wish you luck, but the response you will get today may be very different than 2 years ago.
- nomadpass 4y agoThank you! that means alot
- greggsy 4y agoAirbnb’s killer feature today is brand recognition, which helps renters and landlords recall the name of the marketplace. In many cities, you can get exactly the same room on other sites, and many are literally hotel rooms you might find on booking.com. (In most cases, the deals are better on those sites in terms of refunds and perks). Even with strong insurances, you’ll need to attract the trust both customers and inventory. You’ll need a strong brand name, endorsements, advertisements—or even some gimmick or feature—to differentiate yourself from the pack of other wannabes.
- rmah 4y agoI'll ask the obvious question... how does this service make money?
- nomadpass 4y agoEventually we may charge fees, but still lower than 17% of airbnb, probably half of that or less
- fiskfiskfisk 4y agoI'm not sure if the main issue property owners have with Airbnb is their 17% fee, but I might be wrong about that as I'm not in that business myself. Did you do any specific research that indicate that this is one of the main pain points for those who rent out their properties with Airbnb? Good luck with your project!
- nomadpass 4y agoGuests are tired of crazy high fees, yes I did extensive market research on this. Even on reddit users are posting about these "high fees"-- and I agree.
- greggsy 4y agoDid you speak directly with or survey users and landlords? Reddit doesn’t offer a great deal of confidence as research tool (it’s a start though).
- nomadpass 4y agoYes, I am an avid traveler (Nomad) -- I've been to 85 countries and lived in around 30 of those, and Ive relied heavily on airbnb in the past. I did market research for six months.
- shagie 4y agoThe high fees that airbnb guests are complaining about are likely things like cleaning fees imposted by the host - not the company. From WSJ: Welcome to Your Airbnb, the Cleaning Fees Are $143 and You’ll Still Have to Wash the Linens https://www.wsj.com/articles/airbnb-chores-cleaning-fee-11663269029 https://www.wsj.com/articles/airbnb-chores-cleaning-fee-1166... // https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32879111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32879111
- jonathanlei 4y agoWhy?
- nomadpass 4y agoBecause airbnb charges 17% in fees from every booking, guests are hurting. We wont charge a separate cleaning fee either. All listings are mandatory self check in as well.
- FBISurveillance 4y agoI hurt because of risks/customer support or lack thereof, not because of a 17% fee. Last thing I want is to arrive somewhere 8k miles away to a closed door/canceled booking.
- nomadpass 4y agoI want to work on customer support as my biggest priority/pain point of airbnb. Thank you for sharing that.
- dirtyoldmick 4y agoWho is going to invest money in a company that makes no money?
- nomadpass 4y agoMaybe the people who invested in airbnb? They didnt make money first two years. Its only been a week since I launched the demo so give me a chance lol
- shagie 4y agoAirbnb likely had a business plan on how to make money... and they might not have had any profits but they likely had some revenue as soon as they had listings back in '09.
- nomadpass 4y agoThey started in Oct 07, I started less than a week ago...it is still early and the ideas are still evolving.
- shagie 4y agoAirBnB had a working system well before they had investments outside of self funding.
- nomadpass 4y agoYou were there?
- shagie 4y agoFrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbnb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbnb > In February 2008, Nathan Blecharczyk, Chesky's former roommate, joined as the Chief Technology Officer and the third co-founder of the new venture, which they named AirBed & Breakfast. They put together a website that offered short-term living quarters and breakfast for those who were unable to book a hotel in the saturated market. The site Airbedandbreakfast.com officially launched on August 11, 2008. The founders had their first customers in the summer of 2008, during the Industrial Design Conference held by Industrial Designers Society of America, where travelers had a hard time finding lodging in the city. It wasn't until after that that YC noticed them and invested.
- osigurdson 4y agoIt would be nice if logging in wasn't necessary.
- nomadpass 4y agoOnly for the demo, live version will require no log in, its just to show investors how to use demo user login
- robertlagrant 4y ago- Who pays the owners if the visitors trash the place? - Who pays the visitors if the place is locked/unavailable/trashed when the visitors arrive? - How do (or will) you make money?
- nomadpass 4y agoEventually the fees we collect will offset the funding.
- dekleinewolf 4y ago"no fee" ?
- nomadpass 4y agoNo fee for now, maybe by Series C under investor pressure I would implement fees, but not 17%, perhaps half of that or less...something reasonable.
- FBISurveillance 4y agoPrice is not as much of a competitive advantage as some people think it is.
- nomadpass 4y agoI agree. I want to offer better customer service as my main draw.
- chrischen 4y agoYes but everyone wants to offer better customer service. In order for that to be your advantage you have to actually be doing that or have a concrete way of doing that in a way that Airbnb isn't doing already. For example, take Netflix (streaming) vs Blockbuster. Netflix wasn't simply Blockbuster but with some things done differently. It was Blockbuster to the end user in that it satisfied the same purposes, but was implemented completely differently so that Blockbuster basically would have had to start from scratch to do things the same way as Netflix. This is probably one of the most common early founder mistakes I saw in my time in SF (from mostly myself) which is that a founder would think that they could magically say they will improve on some aspect of incumbent, and expect others to just believe that they can execute on it. Example: We'll be like YouTube, but with better recommendations... Uber but with less assaults. Doordash but with less missing items in orders. The shortcomings of incumbent offerings are often well known. Simply recognizing them and saying your company will solve them is not in itself an innovation, unless you can actually present a non-obvious solution, and one that is also defendable. For example, even if you recognize that Doordash makes a lot of mistakes in orders, and you come up with a solution such as "hire more quality control personnel," it's not anything that Doordash would have a hard time doing themselves if you prove that it works in a way that solves the problem. It has to still be defendable in a way like proprietary technology or know-how that you have. If you don't have something like that, you'd essentially have to convince investors that you will be able to execute against the competitors better which is a tough sell with anything except traction showing that whatever execution/tactics you have are already working in some way. In short, if you're raising money on just here's my idea, your idea better be something compelling enough to patent. If not, better get your hands dirty and have traction.
- enos_feedler 4y agoThe issue isn’t airbnb charging fees, it’s what problems can they solve by investing those fees. And unfortunately for a free site like this, there are lots of things airbnb can do to stay ahead. AirCover is one of them and I am sure more are coming. Top of mind could be free esim for your destination during your days stayed in an airbnb. The market doesn’t care that airbnb charges fees. The market just wants their problems solved by using those fees.
- enos_feedler 4y agoI will say there is a UX problem with fees in terms of how total price is revealed. Hosts don’t always separate cleaning fees and just up the price of their stays. Fees are shit but they are a reality of life. I have fee items on my ce phone bill and and “resort fees” when I stay in a hotel in Hawaii. Fees suck. But at the end of the day, just show me what I get for them. Are you going to put a few chocolates in my room and slippers? Or something a little extra? It’s all about the business behind the fees
- nomadpass 4y agoI am just one person vs 1,200 full time airbnb developers, and just spent a weekend working on this vs the 15 years airbnb has had to work on their idea, and I spent zero dollars vs the 6.4 billion in funding they have had. Please be gentle on me, it is only a demo, and I am doing my best. :)
- postingawayonhn 4y ago> Please be gentle on me Try not to take the criticism personally. I know when you post something like this online it can seem very disheartening, but much of it is good advice. Based on what everyone is saying I think it's worth rethinking your business model to try and come up with some other features that would differentiate you from Airbnb.
- nomadpass 4y agoIt is a demo and investors have been nicer than people on here lol. They know this is the early days and they were impressed it was done in a weekend without any funding while working full time. They loved the pitch deck which was visually rich.
- shmatt 4y agoSo, craigslist? Airbnbs biggest problem I see complained about online is the lack of customer service when your host cancels/you find a spy cam/the place looks nothing like in the photos Im assuming in this case no income equals no paid customer support? Hard pass. People need support when traveling, and lots of it. I think what would attract more consumers next is some sort of marketplace that promises a human response ready to help you within X minutes
- nomadpass 4y agoWe will charge fees in the future perhaps but it would still be less than airbnb.
- habibur 4y agoThen it's "no fees for now". Which is different from "no fees".
- nomadpass 4y agoExactly, but funding can mean no fees to help onboard new customers for the first few years. As I get closer to Series C in 5-6 years, then yes low fees maybe likely but still less than airbnb.
- traceroute66 4y ago> We will charge fees in the future perhaps Hope you're going to be clear and upfront about this to your users, not hide it in the small print. Because otherwise you're going to have lots of justifiably pissed off people posting severely negative reviews everywhere the day the paywall goes up. Bait and switch is never a good look. You might get away with it if you are excruciatingly clear and upfront about it, I still wouldn't encourage it though.
- nomadpass 4y agoOf course, this is early days, its only been a week, and this is only a demo to show investors for a seed round
- pgm8705 4y agoI realize that much of this is all dummy data, but went through all the way to checkout and there are, in fact, fees.
- nomadpass 4y agoWe aren't ruling out the possibility of low fees if investors ask for it. And yes its just dummy data for now. It is a demo lol.
- FBISurveillance 4y agoEnding your sentences with "lol" multiple times in this thread looks childish to me. Also, your title says "no fees" and your comments say otherwise. Having "we'll charge maybe"-like attitude doesn't inspire confidence and says to me that you don't have a plan.
- nomadpass 4y agoIt has only been a week, I am doing my best despite working 60 hours a week, I did this in a weekend, and without any money. It is my first time trying. Please be gentle :)
- FBISurveillance 4y agoThat's cool, I respect honest work. I'm sharing my thinking/feedback and apologies if that sounded ad hominem - it wasn't my intention at all. I hope you'll succeed in your endeavors whether it's Nomad Pass or something else.
- nomadpass 4y agoThank you for the kind words, and it is called Nomad. :) Nomad Pass is an opt in subscription model -- but really another term for a lease, but without credit checks or income requirements, and no legal binding contract. Make it easier for long termers to stay :)
- bubblehack3r 4y agoAn investor wants to see money, money comes from, well, fees.
- nomadpass 4y agoThat is the plan eventually, but airbnb charges 17% in fees, we hope to charge half that or less if investors ask us to eventually implement fee structure
- jamesrr39 4y agoIt doesn't have to be as clear-cut as that though. You could always have a free tier, then a paid promoted tier, etc.
- traceroute66 4y agoNo fee ? So how exactly are you monetising this ? No sane investor is going to money into something that has no revenue stream whatsoever. Because that's not investing, its charity donation.
- nomadpass 4y agoAirbnb didn't make money first two years. I am open to fees, just not 17% in fees like airbnb, maybe half that or less I am comfortable with...something reasonable you know?
- DerArzt 4y agoYour title for this post: > Show HN: Nomad, a no fee Airbnb competitor Your comment > I am open to fees You are giving a lot of mixed messaging there.
- nomadpass 4y agoNo, I am just saying for now it is no fee, but investors down the road pressure me into charging fees, then by that point, it wouldn't matter what I say...
- traceroute66 4y agoI'm not familiar with Airbnb's detail, but I'm guessing "didn't make money for first two years" is the usual thing of "profit-making company burning through VC money for a few years", not "Airbnb gave everything away for free for two years".
- nomadpass 4y agoAirbnb didn't even have a demo, they got funding basically on just an idea. I wanted to at least provide a demo of what it could be, its just v0,1. It is still very early days.
- 4y ago
- ErikAugust 4y agoI should be able to complete a search without that user login modal popping up. I bounced right there.
- SeanAnderson 4y agoAirBnB isn't net profitable after 14 years, https://stockanalysis.com/stocks/abnb/financials/ https://stockanalysis.com/stocks/abnb/financials/ How are you going to undercut them in a way that is appealing to investment?
- nomadpass 4y agoI am not a rocket scientist, just a designer and builder. Even so, they do seem to be doing well, 6,000 employees and 70bn market cap doesn't sound like a bad deal...
- marricks 4y agoMan is our financial system messed up when a company can lose money for 14 years just so it’s impossible for any company to undercut them. You know once they’re fully a monopoly they’re gonna jackup those prices.
- nomadpass 4y agoI agree.
- SeanAnderson 4y agoIt's not clear to me that's a viable business model change for them? They compete with a previously entrenched entity, hotels. Anecdotally, people I know already complain about the perception of unreasonably high service fees and are opting for cheaper hotels when possible. This is different than five years ago where people reached for AirBnB first.
- O__________O 4y agoSlidedeck for related startup: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10OS9xmQws4wienCWpGdnf8bU1l74zFa5 https://drive.google.com/file/d/10OS9xmQws4wienCWpGdnf8bU1l7... TLDR: Their model is “no transaction fee” — with a $2500 month subscription fee. At 3300 subscribers, they would be at 100 million ARR. Feedback: - There’s no mention of verbatim differences feature wise of their MVP vs AirBNB. - AirBNB offers host insurance, no mention of them providing this. - No mention of guest or host counts on platform or cost to acquire etc; retention numbers; etc. - No information on founders or business jurisdiction. * NOTE: See prior posts by user for additional information: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=nomadpass https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=nomadpass _________ Anyone additional thoughts on slidedeck, app, etc.? Curious what observations others have.
- nomadpass 4y agoThank you for including slide deck. It has only been a week and I am just working on this in my spare time, doing my best. :)
- O__________O 4y agoHave you spoken to any AirBNB hosts that your $2500 month fee would be less than would they currently pay AirBNB, and if so, what did they say? How do you plan to deal with hosts that are unable to justify $2500 monthly subscription cost?
- nomadpass 4y agoNo it is not 2,500 subscription. It is based on an average rent, Nomad Pass is essentially a way for Nomads to pay their rent, through the app without fees, without legal contracts or credit checks. Some people (like myself) can afford a 2,500 rent but can't seem to be approved for a 2,500 mortgage, due to credit and this "Feature" of Nomad Pass is for people in my shoes.
- postingawayonhn 4y ago
- drbeast 4y agoVRBO's fee is 5% and to be honest, it's a superior service.
- nomadpass 4y agoI am not sure if most people would agree VRBO is better than Airbnb...at least not in my experience.
- postingawayonhn 4y agoBuidling an Airbnb competitor is fine as an idea but the 'no fee' angle isn't a big differentiator. Especially when you say in other comments that you will probably charge fees in the future.
- nomadpass 4y agoThank you for this. This is not an airbnb competitor only, I want to have Nomad be a place where landlords and tenants can pay/exchange rent without legal contracts, credit checks, etc. Make it easier to stay long term, without all the legal bullshit.
- postingawayonhn 4y agoYou're going to run into a ton of regulatory issues (that shouldn't dissuade you, but you need to be prepared). Airbnb has run into plenty just offering short stays. Long-term rentals usually have even more strict rental laws. I'd actually look pivoting to building a long-term rental platform where everything is done online (listings, appointment booking, credit checks, contract signing, maintenance requests, transferring a tenancy, etc.). That seems easier than directly taking on a tech giant.
- shagie 4y agoLong term stays get into complications that you can become a tenant and then fall under tenant protections. The problem of Airbnb squatters who have gained tenant protections from a sufficiently lengthy stay and then refuse to leave... and needing to go through formal eviction proceedings is a real problem. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/805/what-are-some-things-i-should-consider-before-hosting-longterm-guests https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/805/what-are-some-things...
- TrueGeek 4y agoA few observations: - pay for a domain name. Show an investor you're serious enough that you at least put in $10 of your own money - when I click on a photo let me use left / right arrow keys to go to the next photo - let me click on the header photo to start going through photos - when you show me amenities also show me what amenities aren't included like AirBnB does. I always like how they show the crossed out dryer or whatever so I notice right away before renting something without a feature I need
- nomadpass 4y ago1. I have a domain in waiting. They might want me to buy nomad.xx or nomad.yy so I am waiting on the funding before I purchase more than one. 2. It is version v0,1, built over a weekend, so its still very early days. 3. It is in the works. 4. I plan to show that in v0,2 pre alpha.
- dannyphantom 4y agoThis is an interesting idea and I truly wish you the best of luck! Committing from the early stages of late night conception to sitting down and hammering out a demo is no small task. Your premise reminded me of another startup I read about recently, washbnb. Probably just because it's adjacent to your concept, but it's nice to see continued expansion and iterations in the short-term rental market. One thing I will add, the 'trips' page had a few additional trips planned for 1970's. Not sure what this indicates but thought you may like to know. Here's a screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/5s3ukOx.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5s3ukOx.jpg
- nomadpass 4y agoThank you for the kind words and bringing that to my attention :)
- agmz 4y agoWishing you good luck with this. Succeed or fail, you will come away with plenty of key learnings that can be applied to future projects. The trick is to listen to and learn from feedback, but not let it dissuade you from your entrepreneurial journey. Gradatim Ferociter