5 ms·

Which is why this isn't about the battery fires. It's about the RF of hundreds of devices.

jbverschoor 4y ago
The BLE advertisement packet is max 270 bytes. AirTags send these out once per second when the owner is near, otherwise once every 2 seconds. Assume 500 passengers on a 747, and everyone has an AirTag, and let's assume worstcase, the tags are in-range: 500 pax * 270 = 135kbyte, or 1MBit/second of radio traffic. The equivalent of 4 bluetooth headphones. This isn't about RF. This is about luggage claims. In the EU, consumers are heavily protected against delays, canceled flights, and lost luggage.
gambiting 4y ago
So why is it fine for literally every single passanger to have bluetooth headphones on during the duration of the flight, but somehow trackers are bad?
- Sporktacular 4y ago
  1) It's not. They ask people to switch off all transmitters during flights (and later to during takeoff and landing) because of RF emissions. 2) Because you can't turn trackers off, especially when they're in the hold. Read the initial article that started all this, it even says that reason is because of transmissions.
  - spoonalious 4y ago
    Except they don’t because most have onboard wifi now. And most allow Bluetooth headphones, including Lufthansa: Lufthansa: Bluetooth headphones are allowed during every part of the flight.
    - gbin 4y ago
      So clearly this is again an airline using a rule as a "proxy" for something else they want. Like no chewing tobacco... Yeah it is gross but it is probably not a safety issue.
      - mutt2016 4y ago
        Flying is among the most dreadful activities I do. The whole thing is unsettling from the moment I pull up to the airport. This is one of many absolutely ridiculous things the airline industry has enforced. But.. I must fly places, so I just suffer like the rest.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Note that voip calls are prohibited even though you can get internet access. This is because of annoying other customers, not because of safety.
        yellow_postit 4y ago
        Wouldn’t it also be bandwidth consumption on a limited connection?
        fphhotchips 4y ago
        Perhaps on the upload but download bandwidth can seemingly deal with a plane full of people streaming Netflix these days, so that's not an issue.
        anu7df 4y ago
        Netflix on a plane? I have never seen that. Which onboard wifi allows that? Perhaps you are thinking of movies delivered via wifi, but the content is streamed from the plane itself.
        bpye 4y ago
        I’ve been able to stream video on an Air Canada flight from Vancouver to London, afaik it’s the same GoGo satellite service that seemingly everyone else has.
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      1) The wifi system is EMC certified and tested with the flight instrumentation. Dozens of different consumer devices are not. 2) Lufthansa "allows it during the entire flight without restriction – even during take-off and landing unless the crew instruct otherwise"(https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphones-on-a-plane/ https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphone...). In other words, unless you're told to turn it off in the event of some problem, which is something you can't do when it's in the luggage hold of the aircraft. Again, the articles specifies this is about EMC.
      - 8note 4y ago
        Is that certification actually important? It seems to me like a denylist would be more useful than an Allowlist at this point. Almost no consumer electronics are dangerous to a plane
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        Apparently, to them, yes.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        Their wifi system might be, but a 100 phones and tablets, some from reputable manufacturers, some from "10TB tablet apple samsung iphone" sellers from aliexpress, and the system still works. Imagine planes falling down because a single passenger had a malfunctioning phone on it... the lawsuits against boeing/airbus would be astronomical.
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        Not sure what about my comment you take to be an endorsement of opaque, seemingly unreasonable EMC rules. I don't make them, know if they work or particularly care for the purpose of this thread. The concerns stated, justified or otherwise, were about RF emissions and not battery fires.
      - zahllos 4y ago
    - AlfeG 4y ago
      All airline I've been travel, disable WiFi during takeoff and landing.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    It's not. They ask people to switch off all transmitters during flights (and later to during takeoff and landing) because of RF emissions. I think that's a little outdated. I flew a few times a few months ago, and the passengers were repeatedly encouraged to hook up to the plane's wifi as soon as we boarded. No announcements were made about turning devices off. Not even during take-off or landing. I'm one of those people who pays attention to the announcements and reads the safety cards every time, so I was surprised. I think the airlines think it's safer to have excitable people turned into gadget zombies during the flight to make the time pass faster and keep them from getting rowdy. The same function that the in-flight movie, drink, and meal used to serve before those were all value engineered away.
    - mbreese 4y ago
      > passengers were repeatedly encouraged to hook up to the plane's wifi as soon as we boarded I think this is to make sure that you have it setup early so any tech support can be handled early and to make sure you can download the airline app to your phone if needed. The aircrew can enable/disable the wifi at will. Next time look to see if it is working at takeoff. I’m honestly not sure if it will be or not, but it used to be a switch in the cabin.
      - reaperducer 4y ago
        Next time look to see if it is working at takeoff. Considering the number of people glued to their screens during takeoff, if it suddenly stopped working, I think the cabin-wide moaning and groaning would have been obvious.
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        > The aircrew can enable/disable the wifi at will. Yes, but that does nothing when it comes to risk of radio emissions. Turning off the AP doesn't magically prevent client devices from doing whatever they want anyway. If there was a genuine risk of a client device interfering with the plane's equipment, turning off an AP wouldn't do anything about it, nor will asking the passengers to turn it off (some might not comply, forget or not even realize that their device has a Wi-Fi radio in it). You need either extreme control over every electronic device brought onboard (including X-ray scans, since implantable medical devices now have RF communication too), or enough shielding around the sensitive equipment to make RF no longer a risk - the latter has already been done for decades and RF is no longer (and I don't recall ever being actually) a threat to airplanes.
  - zwily 4y ago
    They don’t ask you to turn off all radios during takeoff/landing anymore. Just cellular.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      And some large percentage doesn't bother and it's absolutely fine.
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        Obviously. But it's not the point. Point was the concern - by their thinking - is not the battery in the AirTag but the transmitter. I give up.
XorNot 4y ago
LOL. This is about Lufthansa getting dragged in the media about their baggage handling screw ups and ongoing lying to customers about it while holding their luggage for months.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  It is not - it is in fact a nothing burger. The original claim was based on a German article where someone called Lufthansa and asked if they can put AirTags in their checked-in luggage, and the Lufthansa representative answered with the existing regulation about Lithium (metal or ion) battery devices, which says they are accepted if they are completely powered off. That's it - no one is enforcing this regulation in practice, especially not for AirTags or other small devices.
tsimionescu 4y ago
Here [0] is the FAA site about lithium battery powered devices in checked-in baggage. The ICAO has the same rule, but I haven't found a similarly concise statement. > Devices containing lithium metal batteries or lithium ion batteries, including – but not limited to – smartphones, tablets, cameras and laptops, should be kept in carry-on baggage. If these devices are packed in checked baggage, they should be turned completely off, protected from accidental activation and packed so they are protected from damage. [emphasis mine] [0] https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage

The BLE advertisement packet is max 270 bytes. AirTags send these out once per second when the owner is near, otherwise once every 2 seconds. Assume 500 passengers on a 747, and everyone has an AirTag, and let's assume worstcase, the tags are in-range: 500 pax * 270 = 135kbyte, or 1MBit/second of radio traffic. The equivalent of 4 bluetooth headphones. This isn't about RF. This is about luggage claims. In the EU, consumers are heavily protected against delays, canceled flights, and lost luggage.

gambiting 4y ago

So why is it fine for literally every single passanger to have bluetooth headphones on during the duration of the flight, but somehow trackers are bad?

Sporktacular 4y ago
1) It's not. They ask people to switch off all transmitters during flights (and later to during takeoff and landing) because of RF emissions. 2) Because you can't turn trackers off, especially when they're in the hold. Read the initial article that started all this, it even says that reason is because of transmissions.
- spoonalious 4y ago
  Except they don’t because most have onboard wifi now. And most allow Bluetooth headphones, including Lufthansa: Lufthansa: Bluetooth headphones are allowed during every part of the flight.
  - gbin 4y ago
    So clearly this is again an airline using a rule as a "proxy" for something else they want. Like no chewing tobacco... Yeah it is gross but it is probably not a safety issue.
    - mutt2016 4y ago
      Flying is among the most dreadful activities I do. The whole thing is unsettling from the moment I pull up to the airport. This is one of many absolutely ridiculous things the airline industry has enforced. But.. I must fly places, so I just suffer like the rest.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Note that voip calls are prohibited even though you can get internet access. This is because of annoying other customers, not because of safety.
      - yellow_postit 4y ago
        Wouldn’t it also be bandwidth consumption on a limited connection?
        fphhotchips 4y ago
        Perhaps on the upload but download bandwidth can seemingly deal with a plane full of people streaming Netflix these days, so that's not an issue.
        anu7df 4y ago
        Netflix on a plane? I have never seen that. Which onboard wifi allows that? Perhaps you are thinking of movies delivered via wifi, but the content is streamed from the plane itself.
        bpye 4y ago
        I’ve been able to stream video on an Air Canada flight from Vancouver to London, afaik it’s the same GoGo satellite service that seemingly everyone else has.
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    1) The wifi system is EMC certified and tested with the flight instrumentation. Dozens of different consumer devices are not. 2) Lufthansa "allows it during the entire flight without restriction – even during take-off and landing unless the crew instruct otherwise"(https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphones-on-a-plane/ https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphone...). In other words, unless you're told to turn it off in the event of some problem, which is something you can't do when it's in the luggage hold of the aircraft. Again, the articles specifies this is about EMC.
    - 8note 4y ago
      Is that certification actually important? It seems to me like a denylist would be more useful than an Allowlist at this point. Almost no consumer electronics are dangerous to a plane
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        Apparently, to them, yes.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Their wifi system might be, but a 100 phones and tablets, some from reputable manufacturers, some from "10TB tablet apple samsung iphone" sellers from aliexpress, and the system still works. Imagine planes falling down because a single passenger had a malfunctioning phone on it... the lawsuits against boeing/airbus would be astronomical.
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        Not sure what about my comment you take to be an endorsement of opaque, seemingly unreasonable EMC rules. I don't make them, know if they work or particularly care for the purpose of this thread. The concerns stated, justified or otherwise, were about RF emissions and not battery fires.
    - zahllos 4y ago
  - AlfeG 4y ago
    All airline I've been travel, disable WiFi during takeoff and landing.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  It's not. They ask people to switch off all transmitters during flights (and later to during takeoff and landing) because of RF emissions. I think that's a little outdated. I flew a few times a few months ago, and the passengers were repeatedly encouraged to hook up to the plane's wifi as soon as we boarded. No announcements were made about turning devices off. Not even during take-off or landing. I'm one of those people who pays attention to the announcements and reads the safety cards every time, so I was surprised. I think the airlines think it's safer to have excitable people turned into gadget zombies during the flight to make the time pass faster and keep them from getting rowdy. The same function that the in-flight movie, drink, and meal used to serve before those were all value engineered away.
  - mbreese 4y ago
    > passengers were repeatedly encouraged to hook up to the plane's wifi as soon as we boarded I think this is to make sure that you have it setup early so any tech support can be handled early and to make sure you can download the airline app to your phone if needed. The aircrew can enable/disable the wifi at will. Next time look to see if it is working at takeoff. I’m honestly not sure if it will be or not, but it used to be a switch in the cabin.
    - reaperducer 4y ago
      Next time look to see if it is working at takeoff. Considering the number of people glued to their screens during takeoff, if it suddenly stopped working, I think the cabin-wide moaning and groaning would have been obvious.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      > The aircrew can enable/disable the wifi at will. Yes, but that does nothing when it comes to risk of radio emissions. Turning off the AP doesn't magically prevent client devices from doing whatever they want anyway. If there was a genuine risk of a client device interfering with the plane's equipment, turning off an AP wouldn't do anything about it, nor will asking the passengers to turn it off (some might not comply, forget or not even realize that their device has a Wi-Fi radio in it). You need either extreme control over every electronic device brought onboard (including X-ray scans, since implantable medical devices now have RF communication too), or enough shielding around the sensitive equipment to make RF no longer a risk - the latter has already been done for decades and RF is no longer (and I don't recall ever being actually) a threat to airplanes.
- zwily 4y ago
  They don’t ask you to turn off all radios during takeoff/landing anymore. Just cellular.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    And some large percentage doesn't bother and it's absolutely fine.
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      Obviously. But it's not the point. Point was the concern - by their thinking - is not the battery in the AirTag but the transmitter. I give up.

XorNot 4y ago

LOL. This is about Lufthansa getting dragged in the media about their baggage handling screw ups and ongoing lying to customers about it while holding their luggage for months.

tsimionescu 4y ago
It is not - it is in fact a nothing burger. The original claim was based on a German article where someone called Lufthansa and asked if they can put AirTags in their checked-in luggage, and the Lufthansa representative answered with the existing regulation about Lithium (metal or ion) battery devices, which says they are accepted if they are completely powered off. That's it - no one is enforcing this regulation in practice, especially not for AirTags or other small devices.

tsimionescu 4y ago

Here [0] is the FAA site about lithium battery powered devices in checked-in baggage. The ICAO has the same rule, but I haven't found a similarly concise statement. > Devices containing lithium metal batteries or lithium ion batteries, including – but not limited to – smartphones, tablets, cameras and laptops, should be kept in carry-on baggage. If these devices are packed in checked baggage, they should be turned completely off, protected from accidental activation and packed so they are protected from damage. [emphasis mine] [0] https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage