8 ms·

Florida Surgeon General recommends against mRNA vaccines for males aged 18-39

93 points by z7 4y ago

dadboddilf2 4y ago
But but but, someone very, very intelligent said taking the vaccine was an iq test. Could he have been... gasp wrong?
TheRealPomax 4y ago
Quoting from the actual research publication over on https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/20221007-guidance-mrna-covid19-vaccines-analysis.pdf https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/... : Individuals were excluded if they (1) had a documented COVID-19 infection, (2) experienced a COVID-19 associated death, (3) received a booster, or (4) received their last COVID-19 vaccination after December 8, 2021 (to ensure each individual had the 25-week follow-up period to experience the event of interest). Just on exclusion criterion 3 alone, this study doesn't actually apply to basically anyone. It only applies to people who still haven't had a single vaccine dose, which after three years of Covid is heavily biased towards individuals with immunocompromised medical conditions. But, at least they know this, and of course the news article(s) will skip over that because you get more clicks if you lie about what the research showed: These data are preliminary, based on surveillance data, and should be interpreted with caution. The results have several limitations: While this method has been used to assess risk of death following COVID-19 vaccination, it violates the assumption that an event does not affect subsequent exposure (for mRNA vaccines), which may introduce bias. Further, it does not consider the multidose vaccination schedule required for mRNA vaccination. This study cannot determine the causative nature of a participant’s death. We used death certificate data and not medical records. COVID testing status was unknown for those who did not die of/with COVID. Cardiac-related deaths were ascertained if an ACME code of I3-I52 were on their death certificate, thus, the underlying cause of death may not be cardiac-related. Unfortunately, in this case it's not a news article. It's Florida's government health officials. And instead optimizing for ad clicks, they're optimizing for saying whatever will let them stay in office. Nothing about this paper should have been used as a basis for policy. That only thing this is a basis for is "further study". Which the paper even calls out: Additional studies should be conducted to further understand the risks and benefits of vaccination of males between 25-39. Increased risk in the primary analysis for the 25 - 39 age group was based on a small sample size. Additionally, significant mortality from diagnosed COVID-19 infection occurred among all adult age groups. [...] And of course the final paragraph: Lastly, this analysis was conducted during the first months the vaccines were available. Both COVID-19 mortality due to infection or risk of mortality associated with vaccination have likely changed over time. In the fall of 2022, most people have either been vaccinated or have natural immunity to COVID-19. Many have had multiple vaccine doses, multiple infections or both. Research to assess the current risks and benefits of the COVID-19 vaccine to help update vaccine recommendations should be studied in this context. What a beautiful example of executive level Florida man still being Florida man.
- version_five 4y ago
  I don't see this story as a debate about research, which could go infinitely into various rabbit holes. The story is that a state's surgeon general made this recommendation.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    How so?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- rajup 4y ago
  Firstly this isn’t a news article in case you didn’t RTFA. Secondly, > It only applies to people who still haven't had a single vaccine dose, which after three years of Covid is heavily biased towards individuals with immunocompromised medical conditions. What? There’s a lot of healthy people who haven’t taken the vaccine.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    Yes, and you can have lots of healthy people and still have an incredible bias in your data that wasn't there at the start of all of this: If we take any group of people in which a small percentage is immunocompromised, and any non-zero percent of those people get the vaccine, those people are removed from the group and you're left with a group that now has a higher percentage of immunocompromised individuals. It doesn't matter that there are still "lots of healthy people" left, your group has become biased towards immunocompromised individuals compared to baseline. Let that happen over three years, and now your group is heavily biased. In the Florida, like in the rest of the US, a substantial number of people got the vaccine, and have been getting theirs boosters, and the percentage of immunocompromised individuals in the pool that's left has consequently gone up substantially.
qualifiedai 4y ago
This seems similar to policy adopted by Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark? https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2477 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2477
- zuminator 4y ago
  Except that's just Moderna. And it's just a "pause." And they still recognize that mRNA vaccines are generally efficacious. But other than that, yes, similar.
- shmooper 4y ago
  Your linked article is specifically against Modernas mRNA vaccine, mentioning Pfiser has fewer cardiac related side effects. OP is about any and all mRNA vaccines so abit different.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  No; they recommended the Pfizer over the Moderna in that age group.
- kyrra 4y ago
  The Danish government is mainly focusing on 50 and over, and not offering it to those under 50. (Those under 50 that interact with the elderly or are immunocompromised are still recommended to get it) https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against-covid-19 https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ceejayoz 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo > During the COVID-19 pandemic, Ladapo promoted treatments unproven against the virus (namely, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin), opposed COVID-19 vaccine mandates, questioned the safety of COVID-19 vaccines, and associated with America's Frontline Doctors, a far-right group known for promoting falsehoods about the pandemic... In a March 24, 2020, opinion column in USA Today, Ladapo wrote that he "spent the past week taking care of patients with COVID-19 at UCLA's flagship hospital", an assertion he repeated in a later column published by the Wall Street Journal. However, UCLA staff scheduling records from that time period reportedly did not show him assigned to treat COVID patients, and four UCLA colleagues told MSNBC in November 2021 that they did not believe Ladapo had treated COVID patients there.
graton 4y ago
The Wikipedia article on him is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo He became acting Florida surgeon general in September 2021, appointed by governor Ron DeSantis, and he was confirmed in February 2022.[6][7] During the COVID-19 pandemic, Ladapo has promoted unproven treatments, opposed vaccine mandates, questioned vaccine safety, and associated with America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group known to promote falsehoods about the pandemic.[8][9][10][11] In March 2022, he recommended that healthy children not be vaccinated against COVID-19, a decision contrary to the CDC and American Academy of Pediatrics.[12] Experts cited by Ladapo expressed concern about how he used their work.[13]
- Proven 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  Pointing to Wikipedia as any kind of unbiased take on a person is laughable and immature. Fortunately for my friends, family, and I, many of us appreciated and appreciate getting the other side of this pharma-first time we find ourselves living in.
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    I don’t see anywhere OP claimed Wikipedia was unbiased. They merely said it was interesting - which it is. He’s clearly not in the same ideological camp as his federal counterparts.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    > Pointing to Wikipedia as any kind of unbiased take on a person is laughable and immature. Attacking someone's maturity for describing Wikipedia as "interesting" surely says something about your conversational instincts. Anyways, I find the passage about how Ladapo claims to have treated COVID patients at UCLA pretty concerning, since staff at UCLA appear to have come out to say that there are no such hospital records. I think it's fair to judge that either UCLA and Lapado's colleagues are lying about hospital records or Lapado is the one lying about medical records in order to spin narratives for political gain.
JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
Florida Man strikes again, now he’s the goofy Surgeon General… https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7114e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7114e1.htm > The incidence of cardiac outcomes after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination was highest for males aged 12–17 years after the second vaccine dose; however, within this demographic group, the risk for cardiac outcomes was 1.8–5.6 times as high after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after the second vaccine dose. The risk for cardiac outcomes was likewise significantly higher after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after first, second, or unspecified dose of mRNA COVID-19 vaccination for all other groups by sex and age (RR 2.2–115.2). These findings support continued use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines among all eligible persons aged ≥5 years.
jeffbee 4y ago
He did his own research!
- stall84 4y ago
  This made me lol
consumer451 4y ago
Can someone please explain to me why this post has gotten flagged? It is about science, or possibly the misrepresentation there of. Is this not appropriate for nerdy discussion?
- z7 4y ago
  I made this submission and it seems ridiculous that a state press release gets censored. Obviously you can (and should) critique the statistical analysis or reject it altogether, but that the Florida Department of Health makes this announcement is in itself of obvious public interest and worthy of discussion.
  - consumer451 4y ago
    Your submission and its flagging has been disturbing me for many hours now. The issue is that this is “political” and dang has written about this.[0] However, what are vaccines? They are biotechnology. Technology is what this site is about, correct? The problem is overlap. But everything has been, or is becoming politicized in the United States. This means that every day we will have less and less to discuss here on HN. The other issue is one of partisan bias. I now realize that I need to take a deep hard look at this. As should HN. I guess the solution, as I understand it, is that I begin to flag things that I see as political. Like say, any post about immigration. Section 230? Should we all flag that? Clearly that’s political. What’s next? This is not good. [0] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
    - z7 4y ago
      The process of flagging is just very opaque to me. I don't know why it was flagged. I don't know who flagged it. A moderator, a high karma poster, multiple people? I don't know if I could appeal it. Your question as to the reason remained unanswered. It's an anonymous process abstracted from transparent human engagement that is somewhat typical for technologized user enviroments.
msie 4y ago
DeSantis strikes again! Attacking education and vaccines. Does he want to drag Florida back into the 50s?
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  Yeah, people are running away from Florida in droves.
  - spoils19 4y ago
    People are actually drawn towards Florida for its free speech laws and its embracing of the free market. What you're hearing is a small amount of vocal people crying out, while the rest of the population is happy.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      People are drawn to Florida by the lack of income tax and warm weather, both highly appealing to the Baby Boomers at the moment.
      - wkearney99 4y ago
        Not the ones in Ian's path, I suspect.
stall84 4y ago
I mean.. Unfortunately: Wouldn't this be expected from rushing a relatively new type of vaccine into production followed by intense external pressure from orthodox Sciencers to get it ?

93 points by z7 4y ago

But but but, someone very, very intelligent said taking the vaccine was an iq test. Could he have been... gasp wrong?

Quoting from the actual research publication over on https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/20221007-guidance-mrna-covid19-vaccines-analysis.pdf https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/... : Individuals were excluded if they (1) had a documented COVID-19 infection, (2) experienced a COVID-19 associated death, (3) received a booster, or (4) received their last COVID-19 vaccination after December 8, 2021 (to ensure each individual had the 25-week follow-up period to experience the event of interest). Just on exclusion criterion 3 alone, this study doesn't actually apply to basically anyone. It only applies to people who still haven't had a single vaccine dose, which after three years of Covid is heavily biased towards individuals with immunocompromised medical conditions. But, at least they know this, and of course the news article(s) will skip over that because you get more clicks if you lie about what the research showed: These data are preliminary, based on surveillance data, and should be interpreted with caution. The results have several limitations: While this method has been used to assess risk of death following COVID-19 vaccination, it violates the assumption that an event does not affect subsequent exposure (for mRNA vaccines), which may introduce bias. Further, it does not consider the multidose vaccination schedule required for mRNA vaccination. This study cannot determine the causative nature of a participant’s death. We used death certificate data and not medical records. COVID testing status was unknown for those who did not die of/with COVID. Cardiac-related deaths were ascertained if an ACME code of I3-I52 were on their death certificate, thus, the underlying cause of death may not be cardiac-related. Unfortunately, in this case it's not a news article. It's Florida's government health officials. And instead optimizing for ad clicks, they're optimizing for saying whatever will let them stay in office. Nothing about this paper should have been used as a basis for policy. That only thing this is a basis for is "further study". Which the paper even calls out: Additional studies should be conducted to further understand the risks and benefits of vaccination of males between 25-39. Increased risk in the primary analysis for the 25 - 39 age group was based on a small sample size. Additionally, significant mortality from diagnosed COVID-19 infection occurred among all adult age groups. [...] And of course the final paragraph: Lastly, this analysis was conducted during the first months the vaccines were available. Both COVID-19 mortality due to infection or risk of mortality associated with vaccination have likely changed over time. In the fall of 2022, most people have either been vaccinated or have natural immunity to COVID-19. Many have had multiple vaccine doses, multiple infections or both. Research to assess the current risks and benefits of the COVID-19 vaccine to help update vaccine recommendations should be studied in this context. What a beautiful example of executive level Florida man still being Florida man.

version_five 4y ago
I don't see this story as a debate about research, which could go infinitely into various rabbit holes. The story is that a state's surgeon general made this recommendation.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  How so?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rajup 4y ago
Firstly this isn’t a news article in case you didn’t RTFA. Secondly, > It only applies to people who still haven't had a single vaccine dose, which after three years of Covid is heavily biased towards individuals with immunocompromised medical conditions. What? There’s a lot of healthy people who haven’t taken the vaccine.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  Yes, and you can have lots of healthy people and still have an incredible bias in your data that wasn't there at the start of all of this: If we take any group of people in which a small percentage is immunocompromised, and any non-zero percent of those people get the vaccine, those people are removed from the group and you're left with a group that now has a higher percentage of immunocompromised individuals. It doesn't matter that there are still "lots of healthy people" left, your group has become biased towards immunocompromised individuals compared to baseline. Let that happen over three years, and now your group is heavily biased. In the Florida, like in the rest of the US, a substantial number of people got the vaccine, and have been getting theirs boosters, and the percentage of immunocompromised individuals in the pool that's left has consequently gone up substantially.

qualifiedai 4y ago

This seems similar to policy adopted by Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark? https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2477 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2477

zuminator 4y ago
Except that's just Moderna. And it's just a "pause." And they still recognize that mRNA vaccines are generally efficacious. But other than that, yes, similar.
shmooper 4y ago
Your linked article is specifically against Modernas mRNA vaccine, mentioning Pfiser has fewer cardiac related side effects. OP is about any and all mRNA vaccines so abit different.
ceejayoz 4y ago
No; they recommended the Pfizer over the Moderna in that age group.
kyrra 4y ago
The Danish government is mainly focusing on 50 and over, and not offering it to those under 50. (Those under 50 that interact with the elderly or are immunocompromised are still recommended to get it) https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against-covid-19 https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ceejayoz 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo > During the COVID-19 pandemic, Ladapo promoted treatments unproven against the virus (namely, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin), opposed COVID-19 vaccine mandates, questioned the safety of COVID-19 vaccines, and associated with America's Frontline Doctors, a far-right group known for promoting falsehoods about the pandemic... In a March 24, 2020, opinion column in USA Today, Ladapo wrote that he "spent the past week taking care of patients with COVID-19 at UCLA's flagship hospital", an assertion he repeated in a later column published by the Wall Street Journal. However, UCLA staff scheduling records from that time period reportedly did not show him assigned to treat COVID patients, and four UCLA colleagues told MSNBC in November 2021 that they did not believe Ladapo had treated COVID patients there.

graton 4y ago

The Wikipedia article on him is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo He became acting Florida surgeon general in September 2021, appointed by governor Ron DeSantis, and he was confirmed in February 2022.[6][7] During the COVID-19 pandemic, Ladapo has promoted unproven treatments, opposed vaccine mandates, questioned vaccine safety, and associated with America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group known to promote falsehoods about the pandemic.[8][9][10][11] In March 2022, he recommended that healthy children not be vaccinated against COVID-19, a decision contrary to the CDC and American Academy of Pediatrics.[12] Experts cited by Ladapo expressed concern about how he used their work.[13]

Proven 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nathanaldensr 4y ago
Pointing to Wikipedia as any kind of unbiased take on a person is laughable and immature. Fortunately for my friends, family, and I, many of us appreciated and appreciate getting the other side of this pharma-first time we find ourselves living in.
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  I don’t see anywhere OP claimed Wikipedia was unbiased. They merely said it was interesting - which it is. He’s clearly not in the same ideological camp as his federal counterparts.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  > Pointing to Wikipedia as any kind of unbiased take on a person is laughable and immature. Attacking someone's maturity for describing Wikipedia as "interesting" surely says something about your conversational instincts. Anyways, I find the passage about how Ladapo claims to have treated COVID patients at UCLA pretty concerning, since staff at UCLA appear to have come out to say that there are no such hospital records. I think it's fair to judge that either UCLA and Lapado's colleagues are lying about hospital records or Lapado is the one lying about medical records in order to spin narratives for political gain.

JohnJamesRambo 4y ago

Florida Man strikes again, now he’s the goofy Surgeon General… https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7114e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7114e1.htm > The incidence of cardiac outcomes after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination was highest for males aged 12–17 years after the second vaccine dose; however, within this demographic group, the risk for cardiac outcomes was 1.8–5.6 times as high after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after the second vaccine dose. The risk for cardiac outcomes was likewise significantly higher after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after first, second, or unspecified dose of mRNA COVID-19 vaccination for all other groups by sex and age (RR 2.2–115.2). These findings support continued use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines among all eligible persons aged ≥5 years.

jeffbee 4y ago

He did his own research!

stall84 4y ago
This made me lol

consumer451 4y ago

Can someone please explain to me why this post has gotten flagged? It is about science, or possibly the misrepresentation there of. Is this not appropriate for nerdy discussion?

z7 4y ago
I made this submission and it seems ridiculous that a state press release gets censored. Obviously you can (and should) critique the statistical analysis or reject it altogether, but that the Florida Department of Health makes this announcement is in itself of obvious public interest and worthy of discussion.
- consumer451 4y ago
  Your submission and its flagging has been disturbing me for many hours now. The issue is that this is “political” and dang has written about this.[0] However, what are vaccines? They are biotechnology. Technology is what this site is about, correct? The problem is overlap. But everything has been, or is becoming politicized in the United States. This means that every day we will have less and less to discuss here on HN. The other issue is one of partisan bias. I now realize that I need to take a deep hard look at this. As should HN. I guess the solution, as I understand it, is that I begin to flag things that I see as political. Like say, any post about immigration. Section 230? Should we all flag that? Clearly that’s political. What’s next? This is not good. [0] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
  - z7 4y ago
    The process of flagging is just very opaque to me. I don't know why it was flagged. I don't know who flagged it. A moderator, a high karma poster, multiple people? I don't know if I could appeal it. Your question as to the reason remained unanswered. It's an anonymous process abstracted from transparent human engagement that is somewhat typical for technologized user enviroments.

msie 4y ago

DeSantis strikes again! Attacking education and vaccines. Does he want to drag Florida back into the 50s?

xyzzyz 4y ago
Yeah, people are running away from Florida in droves.
- spoils19 4y ago
  People are actually drawn towards Florida for its free speech laws and its embracing of the free market. What you're hearing is a small amount of vocal people crying out, while the rest of the population is happy.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    People are drawn to Florida by the lack of income tax and warm weather, both highly appealing to the Baby Boomers at the moment.
    - wkearney99 4y ago
      Not the ones in Ian's path, I suspect.

stall84 4y ago

I mean.. Unfortunately: Wouldn't this be expected from rushing a relatively new type of vaccine into production followed by intense external pressure from orthodox Sciencers to get it ?