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I cannot emphasize enough that you should not purchase some no name super cheap Chinese product and place it at the center of your home network. It will be a l

I cannot emphasize enough that you should not purchase some no name super cheap Chinese product and place it at the center of your home network. It will be a little bit more expensive, but you should probably purchase from a more reputable brand.

TheRealPomax 4y ago
And now you get to explain why, of course.
josho 4y ago
Why? Are these possibly unsafe because consumer safety tests are not verified? Is this more likely to fail early in its lifecycle? I suppose I’m seeking to understand if the low prices are from cheaper manufacturing or if they’ve taken shortcuts. And as a consumer how are we supposed to become informed?
- dsr_ 4y ago
  The switching ports are probably fine. I wouldn't trust the power-over-ethernet at any distance where I couldn't still read the UL approval sticker. (Which it does not have.)
  - conk 4y ago
    Most networking equipment doesn’t have a UL or other NRTL listing. I don’t think any Ubiquiti product includes a UL mark. Even their power bricks and devices that take line voltage lack a listing. Even if a product does have a listing it’s prob just for the power supply and not for the PoE circuitry.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  It’s obvious: Networking equipment is responsible for transferring your personal data. Especially in home network where it might not be encrypted. Hell, I don’t even trust most big brands. Run my own FreeBSD + pfsense + well known NICs from Intel sourced from Provantage or other data center distributor. Not eBay or Amazon.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    That's... not obvious at all, no? Even if it's a rando-brand, you're going to have to dig deep to show these things actually phone home. Because so far that's been a lovely little tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that just doesn't hold up to reality.
    - louky 4y ago
      Hilariously lawful intercept^1 is a baked-in Backdoor on many US branded devices like from Cisco. It taps ports and exfils data surreptitiously. Not just legal but legally required. 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception
      - Hikikomori 4y ago
        Only on equipment an ISP would use.
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      I am responding to GP's skepticism of random Chinese networking equipment in your home and their skepticism is obvious; that's what I meant. Then I proceed to explaining my own reasons at home. Now whether you agree with GP or my statements is entirely orthogonal and up for debate. There were a number of responses asking "Why?" so I took a stab at the obvious. Sure for most people, it is a pain to dig into these things. I can negligible sometimes too. And it can be just a woo woo conspiracy in my brain, possible.
  - fishywang 4y ago
    what personal data is transferred in plaintext nowadays? really the whole "trusted/privileged network" thing is outdated. your life will be much easier if you don't trust any network.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      SMB isn't encrypted by default
- natch 4y ago
  Copying IP and designs from others is an unethical practice. As such, the people conducting this practice are not going to be trustworthy for creating a reliable quality product. Then, the customers who buy this stuff: Instead of paying a share of the R&D costs and the costs of quality, customers who cheap out on this kind of cargo cult product are instead saving a few bucks short term, only to pay the price later when the unit fails to perform long term.
  - szundi 4y ago
    Reality I think is much more bad: big name players buying cheap stuff from a catalog rebranded while sacking or not replacing good engineers at home.
ctxc 4y ago
With the exception that the reputed brands may just be the Chinese ones but rebranded. Iirc there was an article where someone purchased a port of some kind from multiple brands but they were all the same under the hood.
- aliqot 4y ago
  > With the exception that the reputed brands may just be the Chinese ones but rebranded. 20 years ago, I'd have said you're crazy, but the reality is this is true more often than not. However, there is one caveat I've noticed. Though this hardware tends to come from the same factories, or same ownership, often the 'namebrand' are the 'A' runs, and in some cases the cheaper so-called 'no-name' brands are the 'B' grade. This is 100% anecdotal based on personal experiences and failure rates.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Yes, and in my experience, sometimes the off-brand version may be exactly the same in almost every way, except there may be a few components that they skimp on. Otherwise, they will look identical on the outside.
    - elcritch 4y ago
      > except there may be a few components that they skimp on. On the brand name ones or on the off-brand ones? ;)
      - iforgotpassword 4y ago
        Both probably, but the off-brand a bit more. :-)
  - ziml77 4y ago
    It's absolutely a thing for a product to be made and sold below the standards of the brand name despite being effectively identical. You can find info on it if you look up third shift or ghost shift: https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/01/8375455/index.htm https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006...
cavisne 4y ago
As the article points out its got the same realtek chip in it as any other brand.
- krasin 4y ago
  Yes, but firmware backdoors are a thing. The same chip does not mean the same behavior.
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    Let me see if I can nail down the argument here: - Chinese brand, with Chinese manufacturing: Backdoored. - Non-Chinese brand, with Chinese manufacturing: Safe. I mean, do people not realize that most "made in China" electronics is taken directly from a shipping container landing in California straight to reseller's warehouses? I mean, sure, they might spot check a few units here and there for QA, but it is direct from a Chinese factory to your mailbox without often receiving a secondary check. Even "final manufacturing in the US" is often taking the Chinese made casing and the Chinese made board and mating them in a small operation for a sticker.
    - krasin 4y ago
      > Let me see if I can nail down the argument here: Wrong nail. My home router runs OpenWRT. While it's not a 100% guarantee to be safe, it's a lot better than any closed-sourced firmware. That said, if the choice is limited to closed-sourced firmware options, it's best to choose a reputable brand, so that the list of people who can access your router is limited to three letter agencies (US and China), as opposed to random scammers, like with all these malware-ridden Android phones from Aliexpress: https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/android-malware-that-comes-preinstalled-are-a-massive-threat https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/android-malware-that-comes-... So, yes. Not buying network equipment on Aliexpress is a sound advice.
      - TheRealPomax 4y ago
        Why would it be better than the realtek chip found in so many devices that the odds of yours being bugged are proportional to how much you're wanted by the authorities. Consumer hardware doesn't have backdoors because the monumentous task required to keep that hidden isn't worth the non-payoff of not getting the military or state secrets that would make it worth the effort.
yrgulation 4y ago
I made the mistake of buying a very cheap “mercusys” router. Works well but i caught it sending data to a chinese server. I threw it away but if someone out there working in security has the time to dig into what mercusys routers do and publish their findings that would be awesome.

TheRealPomax 4y ago

And now you get to explain why, of course.

josho 4y ago

Why? Are these possibly unsafe because consumer safety tests are not verified? Is this more likely to fail early in its lifecycle? I suppose I’m seeking to understand if the low prices are from cheaper manufacturing or if they’ve taken shortcuts. And as a consumer how are we supposed to become informed?

dsr_ 4y ago
The switching ports are probably fine. I wouldn't trust the power-over-ethernet at any distance where I couldn't still read the UL approval sticker. (Which it does not have.)
- conk 4y ago
  Most networking equipment doesn’t have a UL or other NRTL listing. I don’t think any Ubiquiti product includes a UL mark. Even their power bricks and devices that take line voltage lack a listing. Even if a product does have a listing it’s prob just for the power supply and not for the PoE circuitry.
systemvoltage 4y ago
It’s obvious: Networking equipment is responsible for transferring your personal data. Especially in home network where it might not be encrypted. Hell, I don’t even trust most big brands. Run my own FreeBSD + pfsense + well known NICs from Intel sourced from Provantage or other data center distributor. Not eBay or Amazon.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  That's... not obvious at all, no? Even if it's a rando-brand, you're going to have to dig deep to show these things actually phone home. Because so far that's been a lovely little tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that just doesn't hold up to reality.
  - louky 4y ago
    Hilariously lawful intercept^1 is a baked-in Backdoor on many US branded devices like from Cisco. It taps ports and exfils data surreptitiously. Not just legal but legally required. 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception
    - Hikikomori 4y ago
      Only on equipment an ISP would use.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    I am responding to GP's skepticism of random Chinese networking equipment in your home and their skepticism is obvious; that's what I meant. Then I proceed to explaining my own reasons at home. Now whether you agree with GP or my statements is entirely orthogonal and up for debate. There were a number of responses asking "Why?" so I took a stab at the obvious. Sure for most people, it is a pain to dig into these things. I can negligible sometimes too. And it can be just a woo woo conspiracy in my brain, possible.
- fishywang 4y ago
  what personal data is transferred in plaintext nowadays? really the whole "trusted/privileged network" thing is outdated. your life will be much easier if you don't trust any network.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    SMB isn't encrypted by default
natch 4y ago
Copying IP and designs from others is an unethical practice. As such, the people conducting this practice are not going to be trustworthy for creating a reliable quality product. Then, the customers who buy this stuff: Instead of paying a share of the R&D costs and the costs of quality, customers who cheap out on this kind of cargo cult product are instead saving a few bucks short term, only to pay the price later when the unit fails to perform long term.
- szundi 4y ago
  Reality I think is much more bad: big name players buying cheap stuff from a catalog rebranded while sacking or not replacing good engineers at home.

ctxc 4y ago

With the exception that the reputed brands may just be the Chinese ones but rebranded. Iirc there was an article where someone purchased a port of some kind from multiple brands but they were all the same under the hood.

aliqot 4y ago
> With the exception that the reputed brands may just be the Chinese ones but rebranded. 20 years ago, I'd have said you're crazy, but the reality is this is true more often than not. However, there is one caveat I've noticed. Though this hardware tends to come from the same factories, or same ownership, often the 'namebrand' are the 'A' runs, and in some cases the cheaper so-called 'no-name' brands are the 'B' grade. This is 100% anecdotal based on personal experiences and failure rates.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Yes, and in my experience, sometimes the off-brand version may be exactly the same in almost every way, except there may be a few components that they skimp on. Otherwise, they will look identical on the outside.
  - elcritch 4y ago
    > except there may be a few components that they skimp on. On the brand name ones or on the off-brand ones? ;)
    - iforgotpassword 4y ago
      Both probably, but the off-brand a bit more. :-)
- ziml77 4y ago
  It's absolutely a thing for a product to be made and sold below the standards of the brand name despite being effectively identical. You can find info on it if you look up third shift or ghost shift: https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/01/8375455/index.htm https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006...

cavisne 4y ago

As the article points out its got the same realtek chip in it as any other brand.

krasin 4y ago
Yes, but firmware backdoors are a thing. The same chip does not mean the same behavior.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  Let me see if I can nail down the argument here: - Chinese brand, with Chinese manufacturing: Backdoored. - Non-Chinese brand, with Chinese manufacturing: Safe. I mean, do people not realize that most "made in China" electronics is taken directly from a shipping container landing in California straight to reseller's warehouses? I mean, sure, they might spot check a few units here and there for QA, but it is direct from a Chinese factory to your mailbox without often receiving a secondary check. Even "final manufacturing in the US" is often taking the Chinese made casing and the Chinese made board and mating them in a small operation for a sticker.
  - krasin 4y ago
    > Let me see if I can nail down the argument here: Wrong nail. My home router runs OpenWRT. While it's not a 100% guarantee to be safe, it's a lot better than any closed-sourced firmware. That said, if the choice is limited to closed-sourced firmware options, it's best to choose a reputable brand, so that the list of people who can access your router is limited to three letter agencies (US and China), as opposed to random scammers, like with all these malware-ridden Android phones from Aliexpress: https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/android-malware-that-comes-preinstalled-are-a-massive-threat https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/android-malware-that-comes-... So, yes. Not buying network equipment on Aliexpress is a sound advice.
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      Why would it be better than the realtek chip found in so many devices that the odds of yours being bugged are proportional to how much you're wanted by the authorities. Consumer hardware doesn't have backdoors because the monumentous task required to keep that hidden isn't worth the non-payoff of not getting the military or state secrets that would make it worth the effort.

yrgulation 4y ago

I made the mistake of buying a very cheap “mercusys” router. Works well but i caught it sending data to a chinese server. I threw it away but if someone out there working in security has the time to dig into what mercusys routers do and publish their findings that would be awesome.