5 ms·

I would argue that a "low skill worker" doesn't exist as anything but a pejorative stereotype for large swaths of people who form and perform functions that cre

I would argue that a "low skill worker" doesn't exist as anything but a pejorative stereotype for large swaths of people who form and perform functions that create the foundation on which an economy runs.

commandlinefan 4y ago
Well I mean c'mon... are you seriously trying to suggest that every job takes the same level of skill as every other job? There are people who don't want to spend years of their lives working math problems to get to the point where they can become highly specialized and are happy being "low skilled" because they get more time to themselves.
- tonnydourado 4y ago
  How many software developers do you think can work in a kitchen? Or clean houses? Or work on construction?
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    Probably almost all of them right?
    - danaris 4y ago
      Work in a kitchen: Maybe. Actually do a good job, walking in off the street? Nope. There are dozens of things you need to know and be able to do to work well in a kitchen—and those things change depending on what kind of kitchen it is, but one of them that doesn't change is clear, fast, in-person communication, including doing what you're told instantly. A software developer going into a kitchen job and thinking they're hot shit because they're coming from a "skilled job" and this is an "unskilled job" is going to get themselves or someone else badly injured very quickly. Clean a house: Yeah, probably. Clean houses well enough to be paid for it: Probably not. Clean houses, well enough to be paid for it, 40 hours a week, for years: Very unlikely. That takes not just the skills to actually get each house professionally clean, but the mindset to be able to handle that sort of work for long periods. Work construction: Almost certainly not. While not all construction requires heavy lifting, most does, and most software developers are not in good enough physical shape to do that on a regular basis without doing serious damage to their bodies. Not to mention the care and precision required to build things that will both look good and last. Because "be able to do this job" doesn't just mean "has the basic understanding of how the mechanics of it work." It means understanding the details and nuances, being willing as well as able to do it for long periods of time, and being able to do it to a professional standard, not just "good enough for me".
      - ahtihn 4y ago
        Low skill is about whether you expect any experience or qualifications when filling positions. Some businesses are built around the fact that most of their workforce will be composed of untrained people with 0 qualifications and very high turnover. See Amazon warehouse jobs, most fast food places. Lots of retail jobs.
        danaris 4y ago
        Sure; that's the reasonable way to talk about what "low skill" means. The problem is that too many people are still stuck in classist, neofeudal mindsets and equate "working in a low skill job" with "being an inferior person, not worthy of respect/dignity/decent wages/a comfortable life/etc".
      - orwin 4y ago
        You are right, but tbh, the first and the third are considered skilled jobs. My sister had a work visa opportunity to the US with her cooking skills (she chose another path in the end), and it was easier for her than it is for most SWE.
      - vinceguidry 4y ago
        > most software developers are not in good enough physical shape to do that on a regular basis without doing serious damage to their bodies That's reaching a bit. I worked construction for years before starting a software career. There's lots of construction jobs that don't require a whole lot of heavy lifting. In fact, there are probably more of them that don't than do. And you probably overestimate the lack of health of office workers.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - tonnydourado 4y ago
      Not even in the same city of right.
  - N1H1L 4y ago
    Absolutely true. This is where the privilege shows. I have helped friends run restaurants, and it's brutal and draining. And there is an enormous amount of pretty unique skills required to succesfully run a restaurant. And I am saying this as a scientist with a Ph.D. and multiple publications - the very definition of today's "skilled worker." The weird thing that has happened is the "collegification" of skills. Unless the job requires an undergrad or, even better, a graduate degree, it's apparently not skillful.
- uncletaco 4y ago
  I don't feel like driving a UPS truck gives me more time to myself. Between driving around all day with no AC and hitting the gym so that I can continue to lift and run around with mystery boxes I just don't see all this extra time materializing.
- danaris 4y ago
  This is painting it as black and white: either there are jobs that require no skill or all jobs require the same amount of skill. Neither of these are the case: Some jobs require significantly more skill and training than others, but no job is unskilled. And, as others note, the idea that jobs that require less training give you more time to yourself is just ludicrously out of touch with reality. Not only are they more likely to be jobs that expect you to work grueling hours, they also pay so little that many people who work them must work more than one every day just to pay the bills.
- triceratops 4y ago
  Music, nursing, game development, animation, art, school teaching are all highly-skilled professions. They aren't particularly highly-paid. We should maybe talk about high-supply and low-supply skills instead.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Those jobs are paid way higher than low skill jobs though, and nobody calls them low skill, so I don't see the problem.
    - triceratops 4y ago
      Because the common rejoinder to the low pay of "low skill" jobs is to tell those people to become "high skill". When in fact, "high" and "low" skill is only one factor, and not even the major one, in whether you're going to be well paid. Another reply said nurses are "highly paid" because they make an average of $70-100k. That is laughable. I made more than that at my first job, at a no-name tech company, when all I knew was jQuery and 4 HTTP verbs. Or compare the valuation of any medical tech, or biochem, or materials sciences company compared to the latest photo sharing phenomenon slapped together by some hungover Stanford grads. How much do experienced chemical, or mechanical, or civil engineers make compared to new grad software devs? Who's more "skilled"? Supply and demand is where it's at. It's pretty easy to increase the supply of janitors or line cooks, so their pay sucks, even though demand is always strong and the work isn't particularly easy or pleasant. There are countless musicians and actors in the world, far more than there could ever be demand for. So their pay, on average, also sucks.
      - Amezarak 4y ago
        In flyover country, 70-100k is a fantastic wage for a software developer. Source: after 10 years of being a star performer and job hopping I have nearly tripled my salary…to a little more than 100k. New hires are making less than half that at my current company.
        4y ago

commandlinefan 4y ago

Well I mean c'mon... are you seriously trying to suggest that every job takes the same level of skill as every other job? There are people who don't want to spend years of their lives working math problems to get to the point where they can become highly specialized and are happy being "low skilled" because they get more time to themselves.

tonnydourado 4y ago
How many software developers do you think can work in a kitchen? Or clean houses? Or work on construction?
- snapcaster 4y ago
  Probably almost all of them right?
  - danaris 4y ago
    Work in a kitchen: Maybe. Actually do a good job, walking in off the street? Nope. There are dozens of things you need to know and be able to do to work well in a kitchen—and those things change depending on what kind of kitchen it is, but one of them that doesn't change is clear, fast, in-person communication, including doing what you're told instantly. A software developer going into a kitchen job and thinking they're hot shit because they're coming from a "skilled job" and this is an "unskilled job" is going to get themselves or someone else badly injured very quickly. Clean a house: Yeah, probably. Clean houses well enough to be paid for it: Probably not. Clean houses, well enough to be paid for it, 40 hours a week, for years: Very unlikely. That takes not just the skills to actually get each house professionally clean, but the mindset to be able to handle that sort of work for long periods. Work construction: Almost certainly not. While not all construction requires heavy lifting, most does, and most software developers are not in good enough physical shape to do that on a regular basis without doing serious damage to their bodies. Not to mention the care and precision required to build things that will both look good and last. Because "be able to do this job" doesn't just mean "has the basic understanding of how the mechanics of it work." It means understanding the details and nuances, being willing as well as able to do it for long periods of time, and being able to do it to a professional standard, not just "good enough for me".
    - ahtihn 4y ago
      Low skill is about whether you expect any experience or qualifications when filling positions. Some businesses are built around the fact that most of their workforce will be composed of untrained people with 0 qualifications and very high turnover. See Amazon warehouse jobs, most fast food places. Lots of retail jobs.
      - danaris 4y ago
        Sure; that's the reasonable way to talk about what "low skill" means. The problem is that too many people are still stuck in classist, neofeudal mindsets and equate "working in a low skill job" with "being an inferior person, not worthy of respect/dignity/decent wages/a comfortable life/etc".
    - orwin 4y ago
      You are right, but tbh, the first and the third are considered skilled jobs. My sister had a work visa opportunity to the US with her cooking skills (she chose another path in the end), and it was easier for her than it is for most SWE.
    - vinceguidry 4y ago
      > most software developers are not in good enough physical shape to do that on a regular basis without doing serious damage to their bodies That's reaching a bit. I worked construction for years before starting a software career. There's lots of construction jobs that don't require a whole lot of heavy lifting. In fact, there are probably more of them that don't than do. And you probably overestimate the lack of health of office workers.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - tonnydourado 4y ago
    Not even in the same city of right.
- N1H1L 4y ago
  Absolutely true. This is where the privilege shows. I have helped friends run restaurants, and it's brutal and draining. And there is an enormous amount of pretty unique skills required to succesfully run a restaurant. And I am saying this as a scientist with a Ph.D. and multiple publications - the very definition of today's "skilled worker." The weird thing that has happened is the "collegification" of skills. Unless the job requires an undergrad or, even better, a graduate degree, it's apparently not skillful.
uncletaco 4y ago
I don't feel like driving a UPS truck gives me more time to myself. Between driving around all day with no AC and hitting the gym so that I can continue to lift and run around with mystery boxes I just don't see all this extra time materializing.
danaris 4y ago
This is painting it as black and white: either there are jobs that require no skill or all jobs require the same amount of skill. Neither of these are the case: Some jobs require significantly more skill and training than others, but no job is unskilled. And, as others note, the idea that jobs that require less training give you more time to yourself is just ludicrously out of touch with reality. Not only are they more likely to be jobs that expect you to work grueling hours, they also pay so little that many people who work them must work more than one every day just to pay the bills.
triceratops 4y ago
Music, nursing, game development, animation, art, school teaching are all highly-skilled professions. They aren't particularly highly-paid. We should maybe talk about high-supply and low-supply skills instead.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Those jobs are paid way higher than low skill jobs though, and nobody calls them low skill, so I don't see the problem.
  - triceratops 4y ago
    Because the common rejoinder to the low pay of "low skill" jobs is to tell those people to become "high skill". When in fact, "high" and "low" skill is only one factor, and not even the major one, in whether you're going to be well paid. Another reply said nurses are "highly paid" because they make an average of $70-100k. That is laughable. I made more than that at my first job, at a no-name tech company, when all I knew was jQuery and 4 HTTP verbs. Or compare the valuation of any medical tech, or biochem, or materials sciences company compared to the latest photo sharing phenomenon slapped together by some hungover Stanford grads. How much do experienced chemical, or mechanical, or civil engineers make compared to new grad software devs? Who's more "skilled"? Supply and demand is where it's at. It's pretty easy to increase the supply of janitors or line cooks, so their pay sucks, even though demand is always strong and the work isn't particularly easy or pleasant. There are countless musicians and actors in the world, far more than there could ever be demand for. So their pay, on average, also sucks.
    - Amezarak 4y ago
      In flyover country, 70-100k is a fantastic wage for a software developer. Source: after 10 years of being a star performer and job hopping I have nearly tripled my salary…to a little more than 100k. New hires are making less than half that at my current company.
      - 4y ago