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I'm a bit fed up with "computational photography". The image reconstruction on the iPhone 13 is super fascinating from a technical perspective - crazy what can

I'm a bit fed up with "computational photography". The image reconstruction on the iPhone 13 is super fascinating from a technical perspective - crazy what can be achieved with the given constraints - but I do prefer less of it like it was still the case with my old "more honest" iPhone X. I should probably finally test the Pro Raw mode, I guess it will give me what I'm missing? Still, I'm wondering if anyone has a rec for a slightly less handy yet purpose built and somewhat comparable modern "snap & shoot" camera? Even after reading this well done review / comparison the iPhone 14 Pro upgrade is just not worth it to me at this point.

fab1an 4y ago
If I bought a point and shoot, it would probably the Ricoh GR series. Super classic format and amazing sensor + lense.
- aspyct 4y ago
  I wish there was a Ricoh GR with a 80-90mm lens. That would be sick!
- remlov 4y ago
  I pulled the trigger on a GR IIIx about a year ago. It's mind bogglingly amazing and several orders of magnitude better than anything my iPhone 13 Pro nor my Pixel 6 XL can muster. It goes everywhere my smartphone does as it is very pocketable.
  - FeistySkink 4y ago
    Can it do clean HDMI or DP out to be used as a webcam at full resolution?
    - Xeoncross 4y ago
      I've found there comes a point where your webcam can be too good.
    - remlov 4y ago
      The GR III/IIIx does not have HDMI out, however it does support the DisplayPort protocol where you can solve video output in various ways with adapters, do note the max video resolution output is 1080p. The main problem is that eventually it will overheat and turn off (within minutes). Video was and is not a strong suit with Pentax/Ricoh products unfortunately.
atdrummond 4y ago
Why not go with a thin mirrorless? I love the Alpha 6100 from Sony for exactly this purpose.
- ansgri 4y ago
  a5100 FTW! It must be very cheap now, and with a compact prime lens or even the very versatile 18-135 it fits in most larger pockets.
THENATHE 4y ago
When I had my Pixel 2 XL I was constantly amazed at how clear, sharp, and non-muddy the computational photos came out. It was astonishing. I now have a 13 Pro Max and wish that I could just shut off the “water color effect”. I don’t know if it’s just me being picky, but I swear to god the Pixel 2 XL had a better camera in every way. More zoom, higher quality color, sharper pictures, WAY BETTER IMAGE STABILIZATION, and the computation stuff like Google’s night mode is leagues ahead of iPhone.
- givinguflac 4y ago
  Try enabling RAW shooting, it’s way better quality.
- Terretta 4y ago
  Shoot with Halide: https://halide.cam/ https://halide.cam/
  - mirsadm 4y ago
    The RAW images from the iPhone have been processed. From my limited testing they're not really RAW anymore. They've been demosaiced and noise reduction has already been applied.
- tim-in-stl 4y ago
  I created an account just to recommend shooting ProRaw with the Pro Camera app on an iPhone. There's even a setting to turn down some of the computational photography features (under 'Capture Quality'). Makes a world of difference! https://www.procamera-app.com/en/ https://www.procamera-app.com/en/ https://apps.apple.com/us/app/procamera/id694647259 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/procamera/id694647259
tcmb 4y ago
How much post-processing do third-party camera apps like Halide actually do? Would that be an option? I'd prefer that to a separate device, which I won't have with me most of the time.
- avn2109 4y ago
  I want to know the answer to this also! Total photography noob contemplating getting a new iphone here, is it possible to use a different camera app to disable a bunch of the computational magic?
  - Terretta 4y ago
    Yes, and https://halide.cam/ https://halide.cam/ is an excellent choice if you want more than the native RAW mode offers. I only shoot RAW, it does require post-processing to get social media looking photos if that's your bag. (Normies want the pop, not the accuracy; nice it has both.)
kejaed 4y ago
I bought the RX100m3 from Sony for this reason with the birth of our first child. It worked amazingly and was exactly what I was looking for in what I was buying. Shooting RAW was nice, and all the Sony tech from the larger bodies makes it way down into the RX100 line. They are not cheap though. https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-cameras/dsc-rx100m7 https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-camera...
- FeistySkink 4y ago
  And there is a bit more modern take in the form of ZV-1.
- nop_slide 4y ago
  I currently have a small digital point and shoot that’s about 5 years old and notice it still manages to take better photos than my iPhone 12 mini due to the crazy processing the iPhone does. I also am a relatively recent new dad and this comment resonated with me. What’s your quick review on it? I’m a pretty amateur photographer, but is this camera worth an upgrade over my current setup and amateur experience? This is my current camera. Canon PowerShot G9 X Digital... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0167Q140U https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0167Q140U
  - kejaed 4y ago
    I'm quite an amateur as well (although with some work experience on vision systems). The latest Sony RX100 is $1600 CAD so it's quite a different level than the one you currently have. Like they say, and it's true, the best camera is the one you have with you... I really liked the RX100, and my favourite thing with it was actually taking it to events. Concerts and hockey games, it did OK with low light with it's RAW processing, and it was small enough to bring in a pocket. The G9 X has a "one inch" sensor, which is about as big as you can get in this size, like the RX100. The bigger sensor and the bigger / nicer the optics, the better your pictures. Like you are saying, when you get it right these small point and shoots can easily out perform the phones. Honestly for the family shots, even though the camera was nice and small, I didn't end up getting it into the diaper bag or backpack as much as I thought I would, I ended up with my phone a lot of the time. Then, I got back into prime lenses on an old Nikon and then new Fuji, and there's no comparison (for me) between a fast prime and a point and shoot, no mater the number of fancy features on the latest RX100. The Fuji 56mm spoiled me.
bombcar 4y ago
Wait until the iPhone 23 just has an AI construct an image from a rough prompt - no camera needed at all.
- kjreact 4y ago
  No need to wait, we already have that, it’s called DALL-E.
ellieh 4y ago
I've been learning to take "real" photos with a Sony A6400 over the past few months, with a couple of Sigma prime lenses. I've been super super happy with the photos I've managed to get out of it and definitely recommend a similar setup!
- ansgri 4y ago
  a6400 is mighty powerful indeed. I upgraded to it from a5100 (which I still have for its compactness) and was amazed by its customizability. Also with mirrorless you can adapt pretty much any old cheap manual-focus lens and get creative bokeh or fast telephoto for under $200. It feels limited for video though — a lot of options but no way to get beyond 8 bits per channel, so iphone hdr videos win in most cases.
  - ellieh 4y ago
    > It feels limited for video though I think it depends on what you want - I have managed to get some absolutely fantastic video out of it, especially with the 30mm sigma lens
    - ansgri 4y ago
      Sure, my use case involved a black dog among sunny landscapes, that stretches the need for dynamic range and color grading flexibility. Maybe with better shooting technique it’s less of a problem, but I’ve got used to post-processing flexibility it gives with stills.
SebastianKra 4y ago
I'd recommend shooting in ProRaw and then using Affinity/Darkroom/Pixelmator-Photo to edit it. Photos shot in ProRaw still display the opinionated high-clarity [1] version in the photos app. Only editing in a third-party app will override that. Unlike Raw, ProRaw will still do much of the good (IMO) processing, while allowing you to avoid Apples color-grading. [1] I believe clarity, not sharpness, is the reason why iPhone 13 photos look so bad. It clears up parts of the image that are supposed to be foggy, thus removing an important depth queue and making the image look flat. In the following examples, notice how minor details are blown out, making the image almost look like a mosaic. - https://ibb.co/Stjh2xr https://ibb.co/Stjh2xr - https://ibb.co/TghZqVx https://ibb.co/TghZqVx (Apples default processing) - https://ibb.co/fHD7R13 https://ibb.co/fHD7R13 - https://ibb.co/Hh53pWL https://ibb.co/Hh53pWL (Apples default processing)

fab1an 4y ago

If I bought a point and shoot, it would probably the Ricoh GR series. Super classic format and amazing sensor + lense.

aspyct 4y ago
I wish there was a Ricoh GR with a 80-90mm lens. That would be sick!
remlov 4y ago
I pulled the trigger on a GR IIIx about a year ago. It's mind bogglingly amazing and several orders of magnitude better than anything my iPhone 13 Pro nor my Pixel 6 XL can muster. It goes everywhere my smartphone does as it is very pocketable.
- FeistySkink 4y ago
  Can it do clean HDMI or DP out to be used as a webcam at full resolution?
  - Xeoncross 4y ago
    I've found there comes a point where your webcam can be too good.
  - remlov 4y ago
    The GR III/IIIx does not have HDMI out, however it does support the DisplayPort protocol where you can solve video output in various ways with adapters, do note the max video resolution output is 1080p. The main problem is that eventually it will overheat and turn off (within minutes). Video was and is not a strong suit with Pentax/Ricoh products unfortunately.

atdrummond 4y ago

Why not go with a thin mirrorless? I love the Alpha 6100 from Sony for exactly this purpose.

ansgri 4y ago
a5100 FTW! It must be very cheap now, and with a compact prime lens or even the very versatile 18-135 it fits in most larger pockets.

THENATHE 4y ago

When I had my Pixel 2 XL I was constantly amazed at how clear, sharp, and non-muddy the computational photos came out. It was astonishing. I now have a 13 Pro Max and wish that I could just shut off the “water color effect”. I don’t know if it’s just me being picky, but I swear to god the Pixel 2 XL had a better camera in every way. More zoom, higher quality color, sharper pictures, WAY BETTER IMAGE STABILIZATION, and the computation stuff like Google’s night mode is leagues ahead of iPhone.

givinguflac 4y ago
Try enabling RAW shooting, it’s way better quality.
Terretta 4y ago
Shoot with Halide: https://halide.cam/ https://halide.cam/
- mirsadm 4y ago
  The RAW images from the iPhone have been processed. From my limited testing they're not really RAW anymore. They've been demosaiced and noise reduction has already been applied.
tim-in-stl 4y ago
I created an account just to recommend shooting ProRaw with the Pro Camera app on an iPhone. There's even a setting to turn down some of the computational photography features (under 'Capture Quality'). Makes a world of difference! https://www.procamera-app.com/en/ https://www.procamera-app.com/en/ https://apps.apple.com/us/app/procamera/id694647259 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/procamera/id694647259

tcmb 4y ago

How much post-processing do third-party camera apps like Halide actually do? Would that be an option? I'd prefer that to a separate device, which I won't have with me most of the time.

avn2109 4y ago
I want to know the answer to this also! Total photography noob contemplating getting a new iphone here, is it possible to use a different camera app to disable a bunch of the computational magic?
- Terretta 4y ago
  Yes, and https://halide.cam/ https://halide.cam/ is an excellent choice if you want more than the native RAW mode offers. I only shoot RAW, it does require post-processing to get social media looking photos if that's your bag. (Normies want the pop, not the accuracy; nice it has both.)

kejaed 4y ago

I bought the RX100m3 from Sony for this reason with the birth of our first child. It worked amazingly and was exactly what I was looking for in what I was buying. Shooting RAW was nice, and all the Sony tech from the larger bodies makes it way down into the RX100 line. They are not cheap though. https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-cameras/dsc-rx100m7 https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-camera...

FeistySkink 4y ago
And there is a bit more modern take in the form of ZV-1.
nop_slide 4y ago
I currently have a small digital point and shoot that’s about 5 years old and notice it still manages to take better photos than my iPhone 12 mini due to the crazy processing the iPhone does. I also am a relatively recent new dad and this comment resonated with me. What’s your quick review on it? I’m a pretty amateur photographer, but is this camera worth an upgrade over my current setup and amateur experience? This is my current camera. Canon PowerShot G9 X Digital... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0167Q140U https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0167Q140U
- kejaed 4y ago
  I'm quite an amateur as well (although with some work experience on vision systems). The latest Sony RX100 is $1600 CAD so it's quite a different level than the one you currently have. Like they say, and it's true, the best camera is the one you have with you... I really liked the RX100, and my favourite thing with it was actually taking it to events. Concerts and hockey games, it did OK with low light with it's RAW processing, and it was small enough to bring in a pocket. The G9 X has a "one inch" sensor, which is about as big as you can get in this size, like the RX100. The bigger sensor and the bigger / nicer the optics, the better your pictures. Like you are saying, when you get it right these small point and shoots can easily out perform the phones. Honestly for the family shots, even though the camera was nice and small, I didn't end up getting it into the diaper bag or backpack as much as I thought I would, I ended up with my phone a lot of the time. Then, I got back into prime lenses on an old Nikon and then new Fuji, and there's no comparison (for me) between a fast prime and a point and shoot, no mater the number of fancy features on the latest RX100. The Fuji 56mm spoiled me.

bombcar 4y ago

Wait until the iPhone 23 just has an AI construct an image from a rough prompt - no camera needed at all.

kjreact 4y ago
No need to wait, we already have that, it’s called DALL-E.

ellieh 4y ago

I've been learning to take "real" photos with a Sony A6400 over the past few months, with a couple of Sigma prime lenses. I've been super super happy with the photos I've managed to get out of it and definitely recommend a similar setup!

ansgri 4y ago
a6400 is mighty powerful indeed. I upgraded to it from a5100 (which I still have for its compactness) and was amazed by its customizability. Also with mirrorless you can adapt pretty much any old cheap manual-focus lens and get creative bokeh or fast telephoto for under $200. It feels limited for video though — a lot of options but no way to get beyond 8 bits per channel, so iphone hdr videos win in most cases.
- ellieh 4y ago
  > It feels limited for video though I think it depends on what you want - I have managed to get some absolutely fantastic video out of it, especially with the 30mm sigma lens
  - ansgri 4y ago
    Sure, my use case involved a black dog among sunny landscapes, that stretches the need for dynamic range and color grading flexibility. Maybe with better shooting technique it’s less of a problem, but I’ve got used to post-processing flexibility it gives with stills.

SebastianKra 4y ago

I'd recommend shooting in ProRaw and then using Affinity/Darkroom/Pixelmator-Photo to edit it. Photos shot in ProRaw still display the opinionated high-clarity [1] version in the photos app. Only editing in a third-party app will override that. Unlike Raw, ProRaw will still do much of the good (IMO) processing, while allowing you to avoid Apples color-grading. [1] I believe clarity, not sharpness, is the reason why iPhone 13 photos look so bad. It clears up parts of the image that are supposed to be foggy, thus removing an important depth queue and making the image look flat. In the following examples, notice how minor details are blown out, making the image almost look like a mosaic. - https://ibb.co/Stjh2xr https://ibb.co/Stjh2xr - https://ibb.co/TghZqVx https://ibb.co/TghZqVx (Apples default processing) - https://ibb.co/fHD7R13 https://ibb.co/fHD7R13 - https://ibb.co/Hh53pWL https://ibb.co/Hh53pWL (Apples default processing)