4 ms·

You'd be surprised at how many Americans don't understand how Presidential pardons work either.

citilife 4y ago
A lot of people don't know basic civics. IMO our education system should be focused primarily understanding and respecting history, law and civics. I think the vast majority of Americans have no idea about any of the basics of the American system, which is frankly... scary.
- z3c0 4y ago
  I don't know... Obviously anecdata, but I'm from an area notorious for poor education standards, and civics and history were focused on very heavily there. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that civics and history aren't going to stick any better than any other subject until critical thinking has first been taught.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    > I'm from an area notorious for poor education standards, and civics and history were focused on very heavily there. When you (plural) are making 6-figures a year, living in some high class inner suburb, working for some employer who has tons of money sloshing around, you don't need to be good at playing the game because you can just pay your way. Poor communities need to actually be good at playing the game in order to be heard.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  The problem is that because of underinvestment, or the wrong kinds of it, increasingly stringent standards without the advances in productivity or pedagogy means that every year gets closer to teaching to the test.
- eftychis 4y ago
  Can't say everyone or even most world wide are doing a great job necessarily. So I wouldn't take it too hard on oneself. But there must be improvement on the topic. The problem in the U.S. I would say is that lack of knowledge of civics and law can get you in more trouble than other countries -- there is less of the "honest mistake" mentality and approach and more of "we have a hammer and we hammer nails or anything that looks like it." Again on average, and my impression. Also the legal system is way too overcomplicated and inconsistent for my formal mind.
xani_ 4y ago
Why ? Do they teach that in school ? If not why it would be surprising to not know how it works ?
- jjk166 4y ago
  It is surprising that it is not typically taught in schools. One would think an understanding of how our government works and the limits of its powers would be critical for a functional democracy, but 57% of Americans have never even read the constitution nonetheless had any formal education about the context and consequences of its clauses. Of course there will always be more things we want kids to learn than there is time to teach them, but I seriously question what was prioritized over civics.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It's understandable that studying the constitution could be useful, but arguably so would studying the NEC. In both cases it shouldn't be a requirement; we don't demand studying the NEC before using electricity. And even those with a very good understanding of the constitution and civics probably don't have a very good handling on the actualities of how everything works, unless perhaps they're a criminal lawyer.
    - tjohns 4y ago
      On the other hand, if you're going to actually do DIY work on your house's wiring, it would be prudent to at least have some familiarity with the NEC. Since we're in a democracy, every election involves everyday citizens adjusting the wiring of our government. Doubly so in states that allow voter-initiated statutes and constitutional amendments via referendum.
    - kragen 4y ago
      The official original US Constitution is written out on one largish page. The original text, plus footnotes, is 10 pages in https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-110hdoc50.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-.... On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_St... it's, by my count, 4370 words. That's 12½ minutes of reading. The amendments are another 15 pages, which is mostly taken up by footnotes about which states ratified them when. On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights and https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_... we have 809 and 2698 words respectively. That's another 10 minutes of reading. Also, most of that text is unchanged since 01789, and it hasn't changed at all since 01992, when one sentence was added. If you'd spent those 22½ minutes in 01992 you'd still be up to date. And it is in the public domain, so it is easy to obtain. NFPA's National Electrical Code (I assume that's the one you mean) is over 1000 pages, and a new version comes out each year.
wmf 4y ago
Pardons are so rare that it's not a good use of brain space for most people. They have been in the news more in recent years due to you know who.
- thakoppno 4y ago
  > Despite a burst of pardons and commutations in his last hours in office, Donald Trump used his executive clemency power less frequently than nearly every other president since the turn of the 20th century, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of U.S. Justice Department data. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/22/trump-used-his-clemency-power-sparingly-despite-a-raft-of-late-pardons-and-commutations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/22/trump-used-...
  - kornork 4y ago
    I mean... fine, but IMO it's not the number of pardons issued that made this top of mind, but rather the constant controversy around people given pardons, gossip about people who requested pardons, and speculation about the legality of a potential self-pardon.
    - rufus_foreman 4y ago
      As opposed to the non-existent controversy over Carter pardoning draft dodgers? Or the non-existent controversy over Clinton pardoning Patty Hearst and members of the Weather Underground? Or the non-existent controversy over Clinton pardoning his half-brother? Or the non-existent controversy over Obama commuting the sentence of Chelsea Manning?
      - CrazyPyroLinux 4y ago
        That last one was a win.
        thakoppno 4y ago
        Between Manning and Assange, whom do you think is more deserving of a pardon?

A lot of people don't know basic civics. IMO our education system should be focused primarily understanding and respecting history, law and civics. I think the vast majority of Americans have no idea about any of the basics of the American system, which is frankly... scary.

z3c0 4y ago
I don't know... Obviously anecdata, but I'm from an area notorious for poor education standards, and civics and history were focused on very heavily there. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that civics and history aren't going to stick any better than any other subject until critical thinking has first been taught.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  > I'm from an area notorious for poor education standards, and civics and history were focused on very heavily there. When you (plural) are making 6-figures a year, living in some high class inner suburb, working for some employer who has tons of money sloshing around, you don't need to be good at playing the game because you can just pay your way. Poor communities need to actually be good at playing the game in order to be heard.
bobthepanda 4y ago
The problem is that because of underinvestment, or the wrong kinds of it, increasingly stringent standards without the advances in productivity or pedagogy means that every year gets closer to teaching to the test.
eftychis 4y ago
Can't say everyone or even most world wide are doing a great job necessarily. So I wouldn't take it too hard on oneself. But there must be improvement on the topic. The problem in the U.S. I would say is that lack of knowledge of civics and law can get you in more trouble than other countries -- there is less of the "honest mistake" mentality and approach and more of "we have a hammer and we hammer nails or anything that looks like it." Again on average, and my impression. Also the legal system is way too overcomplicated and inconsistent for my formal mind.

xani_ 4y ago

Why ? Do they teach that in school ? If not why it would be surprising to not know how it works ?

jjk166 4y ago
It is surprising that it is not typically taught in schools. One would think an understanding of how our government works and the limits of its powers would be critical for a functional democracy, but 57% of Americans have never even read the constitution nonetheless had any formal education about the context and consequences of its clauses. Of course there will always be more things we want kids to learn than there is time to teach them, but I seriously question what was prioritized over civics.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It's understandable that studying the constitution could be useful, but arguably so would studying the NEC. In both cases it shouldn't be a requirement; we don't demand studying the NEC before using electricity. And even those with a very good understanding of the constitution and civics probably don't have a very good handling on the actualities of how everything works, unless perhaps they're a criminal lawyer.
  - tjohns 4y ago
    On the other hand, if you're going to actually do DIY work on your house's wiring, it would be prudent to at least have some familiarity with the NEC. Since we're in a democracy, every election involves everyday citizens adjusting the wiring of our government. Doubly so in states that allow voter-initiated statutes and constitutional amendments via referendum.
  - kragen 4y ago
    The official original US Constitution is written out on one largish page. The original text, plus footnotes, is 10 pages in https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-110hdoc50.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-.... On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_St... it's, by my count, 4370 words. That's 12½ minutes of reading. The amendments are another 15 pages, which is mostly taken up by footnotes about which states ratified them when. On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights and https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_... we have 809 and 2698 words respectively. That's another 10 minutes of reading. Also, most of that text is unchanged since 01789, and it hasn't changed at all since 01992, when one sentence was added. If you'd spent those 22½ minutes in 01992 you'd still be up to date. And it is in the public domain, so it is easy to obtain. NFPA's National Electrical Code (I assume that's the one you mean) is over 1000 pages, and a new version comes out each year.

wmf 4y ago

Pardons are so rare that it's not a good use of brain space for most people. They have been in the news more in recent years due to you know who.

thakoppno 4y ago
> Despite a burst of pardons and commutations in his last hours in office, Donald Trump used his executive clemency power less frequently than nearly every other president since the turn of the 20th century, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of U.S. Justice Department data. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/22/trump-used-his-clemency-power-sparingly-despite-a-raft-of-late-pardons-and-commutations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/22/trump-used-...
- kornork 4y ago
  I mean... fine, but IMO it's not the number of pardons issued that made this top of mind, but rather the constant controversy around people given pardons, gossip about people who requested pardons, and speculation about the legality of a potential self-pardon.
  - rufus_foreman 4y ago
    As opposed to the non-existent controversy over Carter pardoning draft dodgers? Or the non-existent controversy over Clinton pardoning Patty Hearst and members of the Weather Underground? Or the non-existent controversy over Clinton pardoning his half-brother? Or the non-existent controversy over Obama commuting the sentence of Chelsea Manning?
    - CrazyPyroLinux 4y ago
      That last one was a win.
      - thakoppno 4y ago
        Between Manning and Assange, whom do you think is more deserving of a pardon?