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From the earlier Reason article[0]: "In one of his organic chemistry classes in the spring 2022 there were, among other troubling indicators, a very high rate

by miles 4y ago

From the earlier Reason article[0]: "In one of his organic chemistry classes in the spring 2022 there were, among other troubling indicators, a very high rate of student withdrawals, a student petition signed by 82 students, course evaluations scores that were by far the worst not only among members of the Chemistry Department but among all the University's undergraduate science courses, and multiple student complaints about his dismissiveness, unresponsiveness, condescension, and opacity about grading." [0] https://reason.com/2022/10/03/maitland-jones-jr-organic-chemistry-nyu-fired/ https://reason.com/2022/10/03/maitland-jones-jr-organic-chem...

ghaff 4y ago
It's hard to tell the real story from the various articles. Organic chemistry does tend to be a difficult class for various reasons--and not just because of weeding out pre-meds. And it's easy to see that layered with a semi-retired professor who is very set in his ways who, just because he has been a well-respected researcher doesn't mean he's the best person to teach a large lecture course in a difficult subject.
- conductr 4y ago
  It weeded me out of pre-med and I never even spoke to the professor. It was like a 500 student class, there was no time. I didn't think it was taught very well. But I also thought it was taught in a normal fashion for the class/topic. It just required much more self-driven appetite for the material and self-study than I had ever experienced and more than I cared to give at the time. I suspect that's the case here as well and the "kids these days" felt the need to protest it instead of roll up their sleeves and do the work, or accept that they don't really have what is required to make it in med school level of rigor and commitment.
tablespoon 4y ago
I'm not sure if that quote really captures the issue. I read NYT article about this a few days ago (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-...), and its seems one major aspect is a culture clash between expectations of "gen Z" students and expectations of students/professors in prior generations. The gist I got is that the "gen z" students expect the "system" to adapt to address their struggles, and when they fail they tend to blame that "system" or other factors outside their control. Focusing on the student evaluation results presumes the students' attitude is the correct one, when it may very well be unreasonable.
- dougmwne 4y ago
  Ummm, yeah sounds about right! Most of the time, systems fail, not people. People are extremely responsive and committed to their environments. Bad environments yield bad outcomes. If gen z has stopped blaming themselves for things outside their control, then they may be the wisest generation.
  - none_to_remain 4y ago
    > systems fail, not people Perhaps the system failed this person by letting too many students attend his class who lacked the requisite intellectual ability or work ethic.
    - dougmwne 4y ago
      Or the system failed by hiring him in the first place for a job he was unsuited for? Yes, I agree this was a systems issue that paired the wrong students with the wrong teacher. Maybe he should have been teaching an upper level course where the students could benefit from extra rigor or maybe he should have been release from teaching responsibility as a talented researcher.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > “They weren’t coming to class, that’s for sure, because I can count the house,” Dr. Jones said in an interview. “They weren’t watching the videos, and they weren’t able to answer the questions.” > “I think this petition was written more out of unhappiness with exam scores than an actual feeling of being treated unfairly,” wrote Mr. Benslimane, now a Ph.D. student at Harvard. “I have noticed that many of the students who consistently complained about the class did not use the resources we afforded to them.” sounds like the students had things within their control they could have done, like attend classes or watch lectures.
    - trasz 4y ago
      You’re assuming those videos and classes were worth watching.
rst 4y ago
A concrete example -- by more than one account, he had a standard practice of publicly naming and shaming the student with the lowest score on each exam. That's got no legitimate pedagogical purpose. Ideally, there'd be a way short of firing to deal with it -- but he'd have to go along with that.
- autoexec 4y ago
  Yeah, it looks like this was a combination of students not doing to work/putting in the time, and a teacher who got too old and bitter to treat students with respect. It's also likely that previous generations were less thin skinned, but really nobody needs a sarcastic and condescending teacher shaming them in class over their grades and even previous generations would have done better without it.
  - itsdrewmiller 4y ago
    one person's "thin skin" is another's "courage to stand up for themselves".
WalterBright 4y ago
Going from public high school into a high pressure university can be quite a shock (it was to me). Before firing a prof, I'd have consulted the majority of his students who did not sign the petition.

by miles 4y ago

ghaff 4y ago

It's hard to tell the real story from the various articles. Organic chemistry does tend to be a difficult class for various reasons--and not just because of weeding out pre-meds. And it's easy to see that layered with a semi-retired professor who is very set in his ways who, just because he has been a well-respected researcher doesn't mean he's the best person to teach a large lecture course in a difficult subject.

conductr 4y ago
It weeded me out of pre-med and I never even spoke to the professor. It was like a 500 student class, there was no time. I didn't think it was taught very well. But I also thought it was taught in a normal fashion for the class/topic. It just required much more self-driven appetite for the material and self-study than I had ever experienced and more than I cared to give at the time. I suspect that's the case here as well and the "kids these days" felt the need to protest it instead of roll up their sleeves and do the work, or accept that they don't really have what is required to make it in med school level of rigor and commitment.

tablespoon 4y ago

I'm not sure if that quote really captures the issue. I read NYT article about this a few days ago (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-...), and its seems one major aspect is a culture clash between expectations of "gen Z" students and expectations of students/professors in prior generations. The gist I got is that the "gen z" students expect the "system" to adapt to address their struggles, and when they fail they tend to blame that "system" or other factors outside their control. Focusing on the student evaluation results presumes the students' attitude is the correct one, when it may very well be unreasonable.

dougmwne 4y ago
Ummm, yeah sounds about right! Most of the time, systems fail, not people. People are extremely responsive and committed to their environments. Bad environments yield bad outcomes. If gen z has stopped blaming themselves for things outside their control, then they may be the wisest generation.
- none_to_remain 4y ago
  > systems fail, not people Perhaps the system failed this person by letting too many students attend his class who lacked the requisite intellectual ability or work ethic.
  - dougmwne 4y ago
    Or the system failed by hiring him in the first place for a job he was unsuited for? Yes, I agree this was a systems issue that paired the wrong students with the wrong teacher. Maybe he should have been teaching an upper level course where the students could benefit from extra rigor or maybe he should have been release from teaching responsibility as a talented researcher.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > “They weren’t coming to class, that’s for sure, because I can count the house,” Dr. Jones said in an interview. “They weren’t watching the videos, and they weren’t able to answer the questions.” > “I think this petition was written more out of unhappiness with exam scores than an actual feeling of being treated unfairly,” wrote Mr. Benslimane, now a Ph.D. student at Harvard. “I have noticed that many of the students who consistently complained about the class did not use the resources we afforded to them.” sounds like the students had things within their control they could have done, like attend classes or watch lectures.
  - trasz 4y ago
    You’re assuming those videos and classes were worth watching.

rst 4y ago

A concrete example -- by more than one account, he had a standard practice of publicly naming and shaming the student with the lowest score on each exam. That's got no legitimate pedagogical purpose. Ideally, there'd be a way short of firing to deal with it -- but he'd have to go along with that.

autoexec 4y ago
Yeah, it looks like this was a combination of students not doing to work/putting in the time, and a teacher who got too old and bitter to treat students with respect. It's also likely that previous generations were less thin skinned, but really nobody needs a sarcastic and condescending teacher shaming them in class over their grades and even previous generations would have done better without it.
- itsdrewmiller 4y ago
  one person's "thin skin" is another's "courage to stand up for themselves".

WalterBright 4y ago

Going from public high school into a high pressure university can be quite a shock (it was to me). Before firing a prof, I'd have consulted the majority of his students who did not sign the petition.