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You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold.

ramesh31 4y ago
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ At the end of the day, any power you think you may have is an illusion. It all comes down to who has the monopoly on violence.
smachiz 4y ago
Except that we have regulations for banks and brokerages for how they must operate, what sort of cash reserves they have, and how they must conduct audits. And they pay into an insurance program (FDIC/SIPC) to return money to depositors if they collapse.
karamanolev 4y ago
> You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. Many people have lost their BTC and other coins to hacks, phishes, hardware failures, software failures and so on. So in the sense of the people from the general public, yes, I can steal your Bitcoin. > This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold. You can keep it under the mattress and expose yourself to one kind of failure mode. You can also keep it with the bank with the clear expectation that the owners will not run off with the gold and also expect the state to go after the owners if they do. Which is not happening here.
- tcgv 4y ago
  > yes, I can steal your Bitcoin Let's fix that phrase: - yes, I can steal your Bitcoin keys And then go further and transfer the bitcoins Other than that, no, you CANNOT steal "my" bitcoins
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    Um, no, I don't think language works like that. Let's try to rephrase that with gold: "You CANNOT steal the gold under my mattress. You can steal my keys or break my door, walk in and then move the gold from my house to your car and drive off.". Don't you agree the above is equivalent to me stealing your gold?
    - tcgv 4y ago
      That's a good argument, but notice what I'm saying is that stealing the bitcoin wallet keys is the only known way to steal bitcoins (I'm not saying bitcoins cannot be stolen, nor that it would be wrong to phrase that bitcoin was stolen as the result of compromised keys). If you're hiding gold under a bed one could steal your door keys, break the door through brute force, set your door on fire, get in through the window, make a hole through the floor under the bed, wait until you get the trash out and sneak in, and so forth. Bitcoin allow you to be concerned with only one thing: keeping your keys secret.
      - tekknik 4y ago
        You’re getting into a semantic argument. The idea of someone stealing bitcoins, vs the keys, is an attempt to deviate from the issue/discussion at hand.
        tcgv 4y ago
        Fair point. It has gotten a bit semantic.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- sgammon 4y ago
  But you can blame gold itself for that. Gold is inherently valuable; and one flaw of inherent physical value is that it can physically change hands forcibly and, well, the bearer of that value now controls it in complete and total form. Cryptographically verified exchange is a different kind of exchange, and it has its own benefits and drawbacks. one of the benefits of this kind of exchange is that mere custody of the currency in question does not relate to ownership. Does that make gold worse or better than bitcoin? No, it just makes them different.
  - prepend 4y ago
    You can blame gold if it is very easy to steal. Or if owners are more likely to have it stolen, etc etc. Crypto has certain vulnerabilities that gold doesn’t. But it also has lots of benefits. But I don’t know of any situations where gold banks let them drive trucks of $40M in gold before they stopped customers. It’s just harder to move.
    - sgammon 4y ago
      ? Candidly I don't know what you mean, so I will share this anecdote about gold in trucks: there is a building in downtown Chicago, built at the height of the mob days, with an elevator which can lift an entire (full) armored car. It can lift it several stories up, into the building, where the bank can unload it safely without risk of robbery. Also, of course, you can't actually steal bitcoin, you can merely steal the keys. That is an actual distinction because possession of the article itself is meaningless without the other half of the cryptographic operation it takes to move it.
      - tekknik 4y ago
        I can insure gold, bitcoin is much more difficult to insure. In fact, I can have my gold stored in a secure facility that I don’t own yet still retain full ownership rights.
        sgammon 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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strangattractor 4y ago
Sure people can. They simply have to encrypt and hold your data for ransom or any of the many other schemes to blackmail you. The crypto enables the perp to get that ransom across the border and evade punishment. If it wasn't for crypto such schemes are much harder to pull off.
nradov 4y ago
I would blame gold itself in that circumstance. The fact that gold is so easy to steal, and so hard to then recover, makes it a poor currency. Fiat currency in an electronic account with a legitimate financial institution is much safer and more secure.

ramesh31 4y ago

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ At the end of the day, any power you think you may have is an illusion. It all comes down to who has the monopoly on violence.

smachiz 4y ago

Except that we have regulations for banks and brokerages for how they must operate, what sort of cash reserves they have, and how they must conduct audits. And they pay into an insurance program (FDIC/SIPC) to return money to depositors if they collapse.

karamanolev 4y ago

> You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. Many people have lost their BTC and other coins to hacks, phishes, hardware failures, software failures and so on. So in the sense of the people from the general public, yes, I can steal your Bitcoin. > This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold. You can keep it under the mattress and expose yourself to one kind of failure mode. You can also keep it with the bank with the clear expectation that the owners will not run off with the gold and also expect the state to go after the owners if they do. Which is not happening here.

tcgv 4y ago
> yes, I can steal your Bitcoin Let's fix that phrase: - yes, I can steal your Bitcoin keys And then go further and transfer the bitcoins Other than that, no, you CANNOT steal "my" bitcoins
- karamanolev 4y ago
  Um, no, I don't think language works like that. Let's try to rephrase that with gold: "You CANNOT steal the gold under my mattress. You can steal my keys or break my door, walk in and then move the gold from my house to your car and drive off.". Don't you agree the above is equivalent to me stealing your gold?
  - tcgv 4y ago
    That's a good argument, but notice what I'm saying is that stealing the bitcoin wallet keys is the only known way to steal bitcoins (I'm not saying bitcoins cannot be stolen, nor that it would be wrong to phrase that bitcoin was stolen as the result of compromised keys). If you're hiding gold under a bed one could steal your door keys, break the door through brute force, set your door on fire, get in through the window, make a hole through the floor under the bed, wait until you get the trash out and sneak in, and so forth. Bitcoin allow you to be concerned with only one thing: keeping your keys secret.
    - tekknik 4y ago
      You’re getting into a semantic argument. The idea of someone stealing bitcoins, vs the keys, is an attempt to deviate from the issue/discussion at hand.
      - tcgv 4y ago
        Fair point. It has gotten a bit semantic.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
sgammon 4y ago
But you can blame gold itself for that. Gold is inherently valuable; and one flaw of inherent physical value is that it can physically change hands forcibly and, well, the bearer of that value now controls it in complete and total form. Cryptographically verified exchange is a different kind of exchange, and it has its own benefits and drawbacks. one of the benefits of this kind of exchange is that mere custody of the currency in question does not relate to ownership. Does that make gold worse or better than bitcoin? No, it just makes them different.
- prepend 4y ago
  You can blame gold if it is very easy to steal. Or if owners are more likely to have it stolen, etc etc. Crypto has certain vulnerabilities that gold doesn’t. But it also has lots of benefits. But I don’t know of any situations where gold banks let them drive trucks of $40M in gold before they stopped customers. It’s just harder to move.
  - sgammon 4y ago
    ? Candidly I don't know what you mean, so I will share this anecdote about gold in trucks: there is a building in downtown Chicago, built at the height of the mob days, with an elevator which can lift an entire (full) armored car. It can lift it several stories up, into the building, where the bank can unload it safely without risk of robbery. Also, of course, you can't actually steal bitcoin, you can merely steal the keys. That is an actual distinction because possession of the article itself is meaningless without the other half of the cryptographic operation it takes to move it.
    - tekknik 4y ago
      I can insure gold, bitcoin is much more difficult to insure. In fact, I can have my gold stored in a secure facility that I don’t own yet still retain full ownership rights.
      - sgammon 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

strangattractor 4y ago

Sure people can. They simply have to encrypt and hold your data for ransom or any of the many other schemes to blackmail you. The crypto enables the perp to get that ransom across the border and evade punishment. If it wasn't for crypto such schemes are much harder to pull off.

nradov 4y ago

I would blame gold itself in that circumstance. The fact that gold is so easy to steal, and so hard to then recover, makes it a poor currency. Fiat currency in an electronic account with a legitimate financial institution is much safer and more secure.