12 ms·

Superstitious users and the FreeBSD logo

169 points by haileys 15y ago

signa11 15y ago
http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html
anonymous 15y ago
I refuse to stay in the same hotel as women who do not have their hair covered! You are not responsible for their outrage. 'First they came for the hotspots with devil logos on them, and I did not speak up, for I am not a devil logo.'
geoka9 15y ago
Here's a similar (and funny) story: http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html
scythe 15y ago
The abstract demon head at the top of the page?
- bjg 15y ago
  Probably one of the "Powered By" logo's http://www.freebsd.org/art.html#POWERED-BY http://www.freebsd.org/art.html#POWERED-BY
- spicyj 15y ago
  http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html
- loopdoend 15y ago
  FreeBSD now with more horns less devil. Allow me to play devil's advocate for a second here... wait. What I mean is, the devil's in the details with logo design, seriously. Just be careful not to insult the pious, there'll be hell to pay. Actually, it would appear the abstracted logo on their page is under a stricter license and requires permission to use, IANAL.
JohnnyBrown 15y ago
I don't understand what he's asking for at then end: | Is there artwork that doesn't include horned creatures that might offend the ignorant or superstitious? as in, I still want to offend her, but also want to change the logo?
- whatusername 15y ago
  I think it was intended like this: that doesn't include "horned creatures that might offend the ignorant or superstitious"?
- saulrh 15y ago
  Misparse; you're reading "artwork that (doesn't include horned creatures) [and] (that might offend)", but it's intended as "artwork that (doesn't include (horned creatures that might offend))".
  - JohnnyBrown 15y ago
    thanks
- bjg 15y ago
  I read it as the author wanting to still display some sort of badge to credit the hotspot as being powered by freebsd but without the possibility of offending the customers... For example, one of the old badges without bestie the mascot. http://www.antbomb.com/sources/powered_by_freebsd.gif http://www.antbomb.com/sources/powered_by_freebsd.gif
jrockway 15y ago
Everything will offend someone. This person probably had a bad day and would have complained about something else (and threatened not to stay) if the BSD logo hadn't distracted her first. Self-censorship to appease the tiny number of people that are crazy is the worst form of censorship. There is no appeals process and you can't measure whether or not your censorship is effective. All you're left with is a world that consists only of fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I don't want to live in that world. Don't change your personality because one person might not like you. Is it worth making the world a worse place just to get a measly thousand bucks?
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Is it worth making the world a worse place just to get a measly thousand bucks? Removing the "Powered By" makes the world a worse place? I am inclined to agree with one of the later emails in the thread; "Powered By <blank>" doesn't really belong on end-user pages in the first place.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    I think the person who originally designed the page was proud that he was using FreeBSD and he decided that he wanted to share this information with the world. Doing so would make him happy; perhaps he imagined that a FreeBSD user would one day see the logo and enjoy his life a little bit more because he connected, although indirectly, with another in his tribe. Little decisions like this are what make you human. Don't let your fears and inhibitions turn you into a robot because some interview with Steve Jobs said not to put "powered by..." logos on stuff. Do what feels right in your heart. Enjoy life first and figure out how to make money without compromising your humanity.
    - sliverstorm 15y ago
      What does "powered by..." have to do with Steve Jobs or humanity? I understand the feeling you talk about, but it's just kind of unprofessional.
    - ionfish 15y ago
njharman 15y ago
One of the most important business lessons. "Some customers aren't worth having."
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Yes, but in this case the hotel is the customer, and the hotel is doing nothing wrong in asking about the issue.
  - vog 15y ago
    Indeed, if the hotels care about those customers, they should probably simply adjust the starting page, which might be a good idea anyway (e.g., putting the hotel logo on the page). It might be more sensible to ask for simpler customization facilities than to ask a project to change or hide their logo for everyone.
schiptsov 15y ago
You cannot change the ratio of idiots in population. Change what you can change - yourself, and learn how to take advantage. ^_^
forbes 15y ago
Sounds like a business opportunity. The customer might be willing to pay more for Wi-Fi that is not powered by Satan, and more again if it was powered by God. I'd choose Wi-Fi that is 'Powered by Science!' - the best Wi-Fi of them all.
- alexmat 15y ago
  All Wi-Fi is powered by science. I'll pay you a million bucks if you can show me a Wi-Fi router powered by Jesus.
  - scarlson 15y ago
    There's a chasm of difference between a router that's powered by Jesus and one that claims to be powered by Jesus. Customer's only need to believe it's so, much like the case presented in the internet being powered by the devil. Anyways, off to brand "Holy Routers" with an image of Buddy Christ as our logo. "Why bother with other routers, ours have the divine connection."
    - donw 15y ago
      That may explain the shockingly spotty wireless in my hotel; I don't want a divine connection, I want sinful ping times.
  - swah 15y ago
    I just opened mine and could not find science, please help.
- reinhardt 15y ago
  I LaughedOutLouder with this than the OP. You Sir are a true entrepreneur!
marshray 15y ago
I think I'm on the side of the general non-sysadmin population here. I used to get the BSD magazine, and I got a puzzled look or two from the neighbors. I just said "oh that, it's a computer thing". No big deal. But how would you feel if you ran into your neighbor at the mailboxes and they were getting magazines with swastikas on them? How about if you went to use the hotel network and the sign-in page said "Powered By" and a picture of a guy in a white hood standing under a burning cross? You might feel a little weird about it too. There is a language of symbolism and iconography that exists in Western cultures. This image of a demon/devil/satan has a relatively coherent meaning. It developed this meaning long, long before some guys in a computer lab chose to use it to represent something completely unrelated, as some kind of visual pun. It's as if they were intentionally trying to be confusing. So cut it out with all the snickering about "look at all the dumb superstitious people who can't wrap their heads around a daemon process". This is the kind of antisocial behavior that gives nerds an image problem.
- nessus42 15y ago
  I take it that you think that celebrating Halloween is also "antisocial"? Plenty of people I know might dress up on as a daemon or devil on Halloween, but few people would dress up as a Nazi.
  - jcitme 15y ago
    I spent last halloween at Stanford, and saw a notable number of Nazis... Not sure if the represents the general populace, but still.
  - mixmax 15y ago
    This whole debacle is about culture. The reason it's acceptable to dress up as a deamon but not as a nazi at halloween is cultural. There are deamons and depictions of the devil in many churches, the holiest of the holy places if you believe in that sort of thing. Tha's fine because they're there for a cultural and historical reason, while a deamon one a splash screen doesn't have any religious or historical reason for being there. Is it logical? No. Is it the way the world works? Yes.
scommab 15y ago
the FreeBSD devil is so cutesy I find it hard to believe someone would be that offended. And it's not like "the devil" is some sort of huge taboo in the US, it is often used in relatively benign product's names. Some example "demonic" products off the top of my head - New Jersey Devils (NHL team) - Dirt Devil (a vacuum) - Devil's food cake (a popular dessert)
- webspiderus 15y ago
  also often used for school mascots, at places such as Duke, my high school, and many others surely.
- lloeki 15y ago
  Not to mention Daredevil and Hellboy. I suppose one could find them offensive, somehow (at this rate, I really could suppose anything)
- fedd 15y ago
  which demonstrated that the West gradually moves to satanism for a long time! (joke! joke-joke-joke! show tolerance before downvoting)
  - vog 15y ago
    +1 for the joke, -1 for lamenting about downvoting.
    - fedd 15y ago
      It was another layer of a joke...
- peteretep 15y ago
  I think some fundies would have a problem with it specifically because it's cutesy - I remember reading people being anti Harry Potter because it trivialized what they saw as black, satanic magic
  - 15y ago
m_for_monkey 15y ago
Maybe choose one of these (NSFW!): http://freebsd-image-gallery.netcode.pl/?gallery=Daemonette http://freebsd-image-gallery.netcode.pl/?gallery=Daemonette
peteforde 15y ago
Penn Jillette is correct: nobody has the "right to not be offended". I think that it's deeply unfair to compare the BSD daemon logo to a swastika, unless you believe that open source is communism that robs pro-America operating systems like Windows. The woman at the hotel speaks of abuse from seeing this symbol, but who apologizes for my abuse at the hands of the deeply irrational? It's not my fault that so many people choose to take their spiritual beliefs so far past zealotry that something so inconsequential as a logo would upset them, and yet it's somehow my problem because I'm apparently supposed to be constantly on the lookout for opportunities to not offend people who believe in bullshit. These people would never extend me the same courtesy if I asked them to remove their Christian jewellery. I'd be laughed off if I phoned the front desk of a hotel freaking out that someone put a Gideon bible in my drawer. I live in a relatively sane place and I consciously avoid going to places where it's socially acceptable to burden rationale behaviour with uncontested religious observance. They can believe what they believe and I'll continue to sleep through Sunday mornings. But the apologists who are smart enough to know better? Those folks should know better than to fall into such an obvious slippery slope. TL;DR: I'm an atheist and I want a refund because someone put a Christian bible in my hotel room. Why are you laughing?
- whalesalad 15y ago
  "I'm an atheist and I want a refund because someone put a Christian bible in my hotel room. Why are you laughing?" Zing. Very good example.
  - fedd 15y ago
    atheists generally don't give a damn to books or symbols otherwise they are idealists in fact
  - peteretep 15y ago
    Terrible example because no-one actually gives a shit, where it's pretty clear some people - with money to spend - do give a shit about the devil.
    - 15y ago
robinhouston 15y ago
There is an insightful comment from Tom Limoncelli later in the thread: “This is yet another reason why it was brilliant for Linux to have a Penguin as their logo. Up until then all Unix imagery was counter-productive to wide adoption: It was mostly wizards (a reminder that Unix is difficult to use and only understood by few) or devils (which is just plain confusing to the 99.99% of the planet that hasn't taken Operating Systems 101 in college). This is not a new thing. This story is probably older than a lot of people on this mailing list: http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/daemon.html http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/daemon.html (and I heard Laura tell the story once in person) Tom”
- umarmung 15y ago
  That link is worth the giggle. Thanks :) America makes all other rich nation's provincials look like Einsteins!
georgieporgie 15y ago
I get the whole daemon thing, but isn't the cartoon devil basically the standard, modern Christian image of Satan, plus some cuteness? Personally, I think the logo has outlived its usefulness. The cartoon devil doesn't mean much to me, and vastly less to normal people, and the horned sphere is just... weird.
nakkali_kuere 15y ago
Swastika is a Hindu sign not Nazi.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  Yeah no, it's both really.
jsilence 15y ago
I am absolutely flabberghasted that we ("we" as in "we the society") actually have to discuss topics like this. Seriously? The world does not have any other problems?
- swah 15y ago
  Its an opportunity for bashing on religious people, and those are always welcome in here.
  - mrcharles 15y ago
    No, it is an opportunity to highlight that there are people in this world who are unreasonably irrational, and who feel they should have a right to force their (borderline crazy) views on others.
    - marshray 15y ago
      Yeah we're right and they're all wrong! Preach it brother!
    - jsilence 15y ago
      The only reason we are discussing these idio^unreasonably irrational people is because the OP story briefly touches a minor marketing aspect of a UNIX OS. Apart from that there is zilch technological substance in the post. If we were to discuss every stupidity we encounter every day, we'd soon run out of bits.
    - swah 15y ago
      But if Science tells me to stop eating eggs, its ok, even if 10 years later it will tell me to start eating eggs again... What is the difference?
      - Dylan16807 15y ago
        Nobody tries to force something like that on you, they simply point out (un)healthy aspects and leave you to you own decisions.
ck2 15y ago
The symbol of christianity is horribly offensive if you think about it (it commemorates someone being tortured to death) but if you want to live in a supposedly "free" society you best learn to not offend and not be easily offended.
Tobu 15y ago
Someone finally provided a 0% demonic, fundie-friendly logo: http://box.jisko.net/i/de9679fd.png http://box.jisko.net/i/de9679fd.png
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
Tharkun 15y ago
You'd better not tell these people about the satanic propaganda in firefox then! (about:mozilla) Some people deserve a firm spanking, nothing more.
- marshray 15y ago
  I actually think it's quite rude of Mozilla to mock people's religious texts like that. I certainly wouldn't do it.
  - AndyKelley 15y ago
    Whose religious text is this mocking? Text below: Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower. from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9 (10th Edition)
    - marshray 15y ago
      It's a parody of the Bible book of Revelation specifically.
      - AndyKelley 15y ago
        What makes you say that? Do you have specific verses to cite that reveal the similarity?
        marshray 15y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla "apparent quotations hidden in Netscape and Mozilla give this impression by revealing passages in the style of apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Revelation in the Bible." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13&version=NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13&#3... Read the two and decide for yourself.
tripzilch 15y ago
I thought this comment was rather insightful: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-November/006652.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-Novembe... As a former fundie myself (brief stint, I assure you!), I do have some sympathy for your hotel guests. Decades ago, in my teens, before I was fortunate enough to snap out of it, such a situation would have produced an *extreme* amount of anxiety. I can only feel sorry for anyone who has lived their whole life that way. There aren't many ways to help them, everything you say or do is processed via an elaborate shell script that basically amounts to this: sed -e 's/outside help/trick of the devel/' Poor people, really. If they weren't so dangerous & annoying, we ought to have sympathy for them. It really was a high-stress lifesytle. I'm thankful to have snapped out of it early on, lots of others aren't so lucky. It really is like a trap. Especially the bit about "high-stress lifestyle". Because really, it's not just about being simply offended by imagery that is perceived as antagonistic to their religion, it's about getting completely worked up over a cartoon image of a devil, and truly believing that whoever put that there must be corrupted by Dark Forces. It's kind of hard to come up with a non-Christian equivalent, maybe something like travelling to Asia, visiting a Hindu temple, and completely freaking out about the swastikas, because obviously this means that all Hindus are in fact Nazis. Or even more direct, refusing to book a hotel owned by Hindus that prominently display some swastika emblem behind the counter (as a good luck/prosperity charm). Now imagine living with this delusion, you actually believe this, everybody trying to convince you otherwise is either sadly misguided, corrupted, or "one of them" and these swastikas are quite prevalent in Asia. You'd be living in a constant state of fear of Imaginary Nazis! It's one of those things that is both funny and sad and amazing and pitiful, all at the same time. Maybe another comparison, I know a couple of people that can completely freak out from simply seeing a picture of a spider, as much that if it's large and unexpected enough they will actually jump out of their chair and panic. A big difference is of course that these people are aware that their fear is irrational--that a picture cannot hurt them (well, apart from any physical reactions they bring about their own, of course).
oz 15y ago
I'm a former fundamentalist Christian who wrestled long and hard over this exact issue a few years ago. Allow me to elaborate: There is a sizeable group of Christians who practice what is known as 'spiritual warfare.' Basically, this worldview sees the work of Satan in everything. Marital problems? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." Financial woes? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." Problems at work? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." 'Binding' the devil apparently dispatches angels who 'subdue' the demons responsible for your problem. Just watch TBN for an hour and you'll see what I'm talking about. For the first few months of my conversion, this is the subculture I was in. I remember one day visiting the FreeBSD website (this is after refusing to use a computer for 1 month because the Internet was obviously a part of Satan's diabolic ploy to entrap mankind), and closing the tab when I saw Beastie. You see, in that culture, there is a meme that certain objects 'attract' demons. Listening to certain songs invites demonic infestation. Watching horror movies practically guarantees it. I vowed then that I would never use FreeBSD. Even though benchmarks showed superior stability and SMP performance than Linux, I couldn't knowingly invite demons into my life like that! By Beastie...Tux, here I come. Thankfully, I deconverted a few months later. But I understand where she is coming from. If she was one the 'warfare' crowd, she'd probably have spent the entire night in fervent prayer, battling the 'forces of darkness.' My mom, for example, would NOT have stayed in that hotel. Wouldn't happen. Oh man, do I have stories to tell! For tidbits on my experiences on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062267 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062267 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611122 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611122 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2202900 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2202900
- marshray 15y ago
  Thanks for that story. It's probably important to point out that the majority of religious people are not in quite as deep as you were. But they might still be a little bothered by it.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Are you really intending to imply that the majority of religious people would support eliminating the BSD daemon logo? Because that's obviously not true. There are ~300MM in the US. If just 0.1% of them are nutty enough to pitch a fit over a cartoon character, that's still three hundred thousand nuts we have to deal with. Meanwhile, the majority of US adults self-report as Christian. Most of these people are not nuts about depictions of demons, as evidenced by the fact that they aren't protesting DePaul (the largest Catholic university in the country) for naming their sports team "The Blue Demons".
emilis_info 15y ago
So much bullshit in this thread... First of all the logo: http://www.google.com/search?q=devil&tbm=isch http://www.google.com/search?q=devil&tbm=isch Clearly an image of the devil. The pitchfork strengthens this meaning: http://www.symbols.com/old/encyclopedia/05/051.html http://www.symbols.com/old/encyclopedia/05/051.html What is the devil?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil So, the thing in FreeBSD logo is clearly considered to represent personalized evil by a lot of people. Denying the significance of this meaning is stupid and counter-productive. Some of people take the issue of opposing evil very seriously and personally. As we all should (according to our understanding) -- whether it is poverty, poisoning of air and water, unethical business practices, corrupt officials, etc. Now I believe the main cause that this story made the news is the 1000$ (potential?) loss for the hotel and some other demands from the customer. Other than that I doubt it would be considered important by the many people posting here. The customer is called "superstitious". It is also noted that the customer and the complaining hotel owner are both women, while the ISP owner and his tech support person are both male. So we see the cliché of superstitious and irrational women against calm and rational men. So yeah... ignoring the obvious, looking down on people based on their religious beliefs and sex, ignoring them unless the issue involves money... Get over it. If you want more people to like FreeBSD -- change the logo. If you won't -- don't complain.
- marshray 15y ago
  Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of the devil. Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of censorship. Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of closed-source software. /me makes popcorn.
  - emilis_info 15y ago
    As much as USofA political and religious fundamentalism (on all sides) amuses and entertains me, a couple of things make me take it seriously: 1. USA has a very strong political power and exports its culture. 2. I am old enough to have witnessed the effects of state atheism personally and directly in my country. Atheism can be as stupid and evil as any other religion. P.S. I come from Eastern Europe.
justinbaker 15y ago
TL;DR: Stupid customers are stupid. I bet she would feel that a non-Christian would not have the "right" to feel offended and complain about Christian imagery. I am personally an agnostic, and I don't care to deal with the stupid issues that people simple bitch about. I'm okay with anyone's faith, and their beliefs. If these people are this scared of a little, cute demon who has been the logo for FreeBSD for a long length of time and think that staying at a hotel who utilizes the technology for how viable of a solution it is for their use case risks their personal salvation...then that shows the intelligence level of the individual.
45454545 15y ago
Now I am offended. Devil is a great guy. He is doing his job in hell. Do you know how difficult it is to actually define punishments for each and every sin we do? Its practically creativity of 6 billion people versus one guy. Even superhuman powers cannot overcome those odds. But he does and runs hell perfectly from the early days. Then one day one of his employees (daemons) gets some sort of recognitions in (pop?) culture and you take it away. He was just looking good by proxy and people couldn't even stand that. This is just wow.
tptacek 15y ago
Tempest in a teacup. The mascot of one of the largest Catholic universities in the world, DePaul, is a blue demon. Unlike FreeBSD, the Catholic school teams are actually called The Blue Demons. There's nothing you can do about stupid people. They're always going to find something to object to.

169 points by haileys 15y ago

http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html

I refuse to stay in the same hotel as women who do not have their hair covered! You are not responsible for their outrage. 'First they came for the hotspots with devil logos on them, and I did not speak up, for I am not a devil logo.'

geoka9 15y ago

Here's a similar (and funny) story: http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html

scythe 15y ago

The abstract demon head at the top of the page?

bjg 15y ago
Probably one of the "Powered By" logo's http://www.freebsd.org/art.html#POWERED-BY http://www.freebsd.org/art.html#POWERED-BY
spicyj 15y ago
http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html http://www.freebsd.org/logo.html
loopdoend 15y ago
FreeBSD now with more horns less devil. Allow me to play devil's advocate for a second here... wait. What I mean is, the devil's in the details with logo design, seriously. Just be careful not to insult the pious, there'll be hell to pay. Actually, it would appear the abstracted logo on their page is under a stricter license and requires permission to use, IANAL.

JohnnyBrown 15y ago

I don't understand what he's asking for at then end: | Is there artwork that doesn't include horned creatures that might offend the ignorant or superstitious? as in, I still want to offend her, but also want to change the logo?

whatusername 15y ago
I think it was intended like this: that doesn't include "horned creatures that might offend the ignorant or superstitious"?
saulrh 15y ago
Misparse; you're reading "artwork that (doesn't include horned creatures) [and] (that might offend)", but it's intended as "artwork that (doesn't include (horned creatures that might offend))".
- JohnnyBrown 15y ago
  thanks
bjg 15y ago
I read it as the author wanting to still display some sort of badge to credit the hotspot as being powered by freebsd but without the possibility of offending the customers... For example, one of the old badges without bestie the mascot. http://www.antbomb.com/sources/powered_by_freebsd.gif http://www.antbomb.com/sources/powered_by_freebsd.gif

jrockway 15y ago

Everything will offend someone. This person probably had a bad day and would have complained about something else (and threatened not to stay) if the BSD logo hadn't distracted her first. Self-censorship to appease the tiny number of people that are crazy is the worst form of censorship. There is no appeals process and you can't measure whether or not your censorship is effective. All you're left with is a world that consists only of fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I don't want to live in that world. Don't change your personality because one person might not like you. Is it worth making the world a worse place just to get a measly thousand bucks?

sliverstorm 15y ago
Is it worth making the world a worse place just to get a measly thousand bucks? Removing the "Powered By" makes the world a worse place? I am inclined to agree with one of the later emails in the thread; "Powered By <blank>" doesn't really belong on end-user pages in the first place.
- jrockway 15y ago
  I think the person who originally designed the page was proud that he was using FreeBSD and he decided that he wanted to share this information with the world. Doing so would make him happy; perhaps he imagined that a FreeBSD user would one day see the logo and enjoy his life a little bit more because he connected, although indirectly, with another in his tribe. Little decisions like this are what make you human. Don't let your fears and inhibitions turn you into a robot because some interview with Steve Jobs said not to put "powered by..." logos on stuff. Do what feels right in your heart. Enjoy life first and figure out how to make money without compromising your humanity.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    What does "powered by..." have to do with Steve Jobs or humanity? I understand the feeling you talk about, but it's just kind of unprofessional.
  - ionfish 15y ago

njharman 15y ago

One of the most important business lessons. "Some customers aren't worth having."

sliverstorm 15y ago
Yes, but in this case the hotel is the customer, and the hotel is doing nothing wrong in asking about the issue.
- vog 15y ago
  Indeed, if the hotels care about those customers, they should probably simply adjust the starting page, which might be a good idea anyway (e.g., putting the hotel logo on the page). It might be more sensible to ask for simpler customization facilities than to ask a project to change or hide their logo for everyone.

schiptsov 15y ago

You cannot change the ratio of idiots in population. Change what you can change - yourself, and learn how to take advantage. ^_^

forbes 15y ago

Sounds like a business opportunity. The customer might be willing to pay more for Wi-Fi that is not powered by Satan, and more again if it was powered by God. I'd choose Wi-Fi that is 'Powered by Science!' - the best Wi-Fi of them all.

alexmat 15y ago
All Wi-Fi is powered by science. I'll pay you a million bucks if you can show me a Wi-Fi router powered by Jesus.
- scarlson 15y ago
  There's a chasm of difference between a router that's powered by Jesus and one that claims to be powered by Jesus. Customer's only need to believe it's so, much like the case presented in the internet being powered by the devil. Anyways, off to brand "Holy Routers" with an image of Buddy Christ as our logo. "Why bother with other routers, ours have the divine connection."
  - donw 15y ago
    That may explain the shockingly spotty wireless in my hotel; I don't want a divine connection, I want sinful ping times.
- swah 15y ago
  I just opened mine and could not find science, please help.
reinhardt 15y ago
I LaughedOutLouder with this than the OP. You Sir are a true entrepreneur!

marshray 15y ago

I think I'm on the side of the general non-sysadmin population here. I used to get the BSD magazine, and I got a puzzled look or two from the neighbors. I just said "oh that, it's a computer thing". No big deal. But how would you feel if you ran into your neighbor at the mailboxes and they were getting magazines with swastikas on them? How about if you went to use the hotel network and the sign-in page said "Powered By" and a picture of a guy in a white hood standing under a burning cross? You might feel a little weird about it too. There is a language of symbolism and iconography that exists in Western cultures. This image of a demon/devil/satan has a relatively coherent meaning. It developed this meaning long, long before some guys in a computer lab chose to use it to represent something completely unrelated, as some kind of visual pun. It's as if they were intentionally trying to be confusing. So cut it out with all the snickering about "look at all the dumb superstitious people who can't wrap their heads around a daemon process". This is the kind of antisocial behavior that gives nerds an image problem.

nessus42 15y ago
I take it that you think that celebrating Halloween is also "antisocial"? Plenty of people I know might dress up on as a daemon or devil on Halloween, but few people would dress up as a Nazi.
- jcitme 15y ago
  I spent last halloween at Stanford, and saw a notable number of Nazis... Not sure if the represents the general populace, but still.
- mixmax 15y ago
  This whole debacle is about culture. The reason it's acceptable to dress up as a deamon but not as a nazi at halloween is cultural. There are deamons and depictions of the devil in many churches, the holiest of the holy places if you believe in that sort of thing. Tha's fine because they're there for a cultural and historical reason, while a deamon one a splash screen doesn't have any religious or historical reason for being there. Is it logical? No. Is it the way the world works? Yes.

scommab 15y ago

the FreeBSD devil is so cutesy I find it hard to believe someone would be that offended. And it's not like "the devil" is some sort of huge taboo in the US, it is often used in relatively benign product's names. Some example "demonic" products off the top of my head - New Jersey Devils (NHL team) - Dirt Devil (a vacuum) - Devil's food cake (a popular dessert)

webspiderus 15y ago
also often used for school mascots, at places such as Duke, my high school, and many others surely.
lloeki 15y ago
Not to mention Daredevil and Hellboy. I suppose one could find them offensive, somehow (at this rate, I really could suppose anything)
fedd 15y ago
which demonstrated that the West gradually moves to satanism for a long time! (joke! joke-joke-joke! show tolerance before downvoting)
- vog 15y ago
  +1 for the joke, -1 for lamenting about downvoting.
  - fedd 15y ago
    It was another layer of a joke...
peteretep 15y ago
I think some fundies would have a problem with it specifically because it's cutesy - I remember reading people being anti Harry Potter because it trivialized what they saw as black, satanic magic
- 15y ago

m_for_monkey 15y ago

Maybe choose one of these (NSFW!): http://freebsd-image-gallery.netcode.pl/?gallery=Daemonette http://freebsd-image-gallery.netcode.pl/?gallery=Daemonette

peteforde 15y ago

Penn Jillette is correct: nobody has the "right to not be offended". I think that it's deeply unfair to compare the BSD daemon logo to a swastika, unless you believe that open source is communism that robs pro-America operating systems like Windows. The woman at the hotel speaks of abuse from seeing this symbol, but who apologizes for my abuse at the hands of the deeply irrational? It's not my fault that so many people choose to take their spiritual beliefs so far past zealotry that something so inconsequential as a logo would upset them, and yet it's somehow my problem because I'm apparently supposed to be constantly on the lookout for opportunities to not offend people who believe in bullshit. These people would never extend me the same courtesy if I asked them to remove their Christian jewellery. I'd be laughed off if I phoned the front desk of a hotel freaking out that someone put a Gideon bible in my drawer. I live in a relatively sane place and I consciously avoid going to places where it's socially acceptable to burden rationale behaviour with uncontested religious observance. They can believe what they believe and I'll continue to sleep through Sunday mornings. But the apologists who are smart enough to know better? Those folks should know better than to fall into such an obvious slippery slope. TL;DR: I'm an atheist and I want a refund because someone put a Christian bible in my hotel room. Why are you laughing?

whalesalad 15y ago
"I'm an atheist and I want a refund because someone put a Christian bible in my hotel room. Why are you laughing?" Zing. Very good example.
- fedd 15y ago
  atheists generally don't give a damn to books or symbols otherwise they are idealists in fact
- peteretep 15y ago
  Terrible example because no-one actually gives a shit, where it's pretty clear some people - with money to spend - do give a shit about the devil.
  - 15y ago

robinhouston 15y ago

There is an insightful comment from Tom Limoncelli later in the thread: “This is yet another reason why it was brilliant for Linux to have a Penguin as their logo. Up until then all Unix imagery was counter-productive to wide adoption: It was mostly wizards (a reminder that Unix is difficult to use and only understood by few) or devils (which is just plain confusing to the 99.99% of the planet that hasn't taken Operating Systems 101 in college). This is not a new thing. This story is probably older than a lot of people on this mailing list: http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/daemon.html http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/daemon.html (and I heard Laura tell the story once in person) Tom”

umarmung 15y ago
That link is worth the giggle. Thanks :) America makes all other rich nation's provincials look like Einsteins!

georgieporgie 15y ago

I get the whole daemon thing, but isn't the cartoon devil basically the standard, modern Christian image of Satan, plus some cuteness? Personally, I think the logo has outlived its usefulness. The cartoon devil doesn't mean much to me, and vastly less to normal people, and the horned sphere is just... weird.

nakkali_kuere 15y ago

Swastika is a Hindu sign not Nazi.

tripzilch 15y ago
Yeah no, it's both really.

jsilence 15y ago

I am absolutely flabberghasted that we ("we" as in "we the society") actually have to discuss topics like this. Seriously? The world does not have any other problems?

swah 15y ago
Its an opportunity for bashing on religious people, and those are always welcome in here.
- mrcharles 15y ago
  No, it is an opportunity to highlight that there are people in this world who are unreasonably irrational, and who feel they should have a right to force their (borderline crazy) views on others.
  - marshray 15y ago
    Yeah we're right and they're all wrong! Preach it brother!
  - jsilence 15y ago
    The only reason we are discussing these idio^unreasonably irrational people is because the OP story briefly touches a minor marketing aspect of a UNIX OS. Apart from that there is zilch technological substance in the post. If we were to discuss every stupidity we encounter every day, we'd soon run out of bits.
  - swah 15y ago
    But if Science tells me to stop eating eggs, its ok, even if 10 years later it will tell me to start eating eggs again... What is the difference?
    - Dylan16807 15y ago
      Nobody tries to force something like that on you, they simply point out (un)healthy aspects and leave you to you own decisions.

ck2 15y ago

The symbol of christianity is horribly offensive if you think about it (it commemorates someone being tortured to death) but if you want to live in a supposedly "free" society you best learn to not offend and not be easily offended.

Tobu 15y ago

Someone finally provided a 0% demonic, fundie-friendly logo: http://box.jisko.net/i/de9679fd.png http://box.jisko.net/i/de9679fd.png

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

Tharkun 15y ago

You'd better not tell these people about the satanic propaganda in firefox then! (about:mozilla) Some people deserve a firm spanking, nothing more.

marshray 15y ago
I actually think it's quite rude of Mozilla to mock people's religious texts like that. I certainly wouldn't do it.
- AndyKelley 15y ago
  Whose religious text is this mocking? Text below: Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower. from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9 (10th Edition)
  - marshray 15y ago
    It's a parody of the Bible book of Revelation specifically.
    - AndyKelley 15y ago
      What makes you say that? Do you have specific verses to cite that reveal the similarity?
      - marshray 15y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla "apparent quotations hidden in Netscape and Mozilla give this impression by revealing passages in the style of apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Revelation in the Bible." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13&version=NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13&#3... Read the two and decide for yourself.

tripzilch 15y ago

I thought this comment was rather insightful: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-November/006652.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-Novembe... As a former fundie myself (brief stint, I assure you!), I do have some sympathy for your hotel guests. Decades ago, in my teens, before I was fortunate enough to snap out of it, such a situation would have produced an *extreme* amount of anxiety. I can only feel sorry for anyone who has lived their whole life that way. There aren't many ways to help them, everything you say or do is processed via an elaborate shell script that basically amounts to this: sed -e 's/outside help/trick of the devel/' Poor people, really. If they weren't so dangerous & annoying, we ought to have sympathy for them. It really was a high-stress lifesytle. I'm thankful to have snapped out of it early on, lots of others aren't so lucky. It really is like a trap. Especially the bit about "high-stress lifestyle". Because really, it's not just about being simply offended by imagery that is perceived as antagonistic to their religion, it's about getting completely worked up over a cartoon image of a devil, and truly believing that whoever put that there must be corrupted by Dark Forces. It's kind of hard to come up with a non-Christian equivalent, maybe something like travelling to Asia, visiting a Hindu temple, and completely freaking out about the swastikas, because obviously this means that all Hindus are in fact Nazis. Or even more direct, refusing to book a hotel owned by Hindus that prominently display some swastika emblem behind the counter (as a good luck/prosperity charm). Now imagine living with this delusion, you actually believe this, everybody trying to convince you otherwise is either sadly misguided, corrupted, or "one of them" and these swastikas are quite prevalent in Asia. You'd be living in a constant state of fear of Imaginary Nazis! It's one of those things that is both funny and sad and amazing and pitiful, all at the same time. Maybe another comparison, I know a couple of people that can completely freak out from simply seeing a picture of a spider, as much that if it's large and unexpected enough they will actually jump out of their chair and panic. A big difference is of course that these people are aware that their fear is irrational--that a picture cannot hurt them (well, apart from any physical reactions they bring about their own, of course).

oz 15y ago

I'm a former fundamentalist Christian who wrestled long and hard over this exact issue a few years ago. Allow me to elaborate: There is a sizeable group of Christians who practice what is known as 'spiritual warfare.' Basically, this worldview sees the work of Satan in everything. Marital problems? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." Financial woes? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." Problems at work? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." 'Binding' the devil apparently dispatches angels who 'subdue' the demons responsible for your problem. Just watch TBN for an hour and you'll see what I'm talking about. For the first few months of my conversion, this is the subculture I was in. I remember one day visiting the FreeBSD website (this is after refusing to use a computer for 1 month because the Internet was obviously a part of Satan's diabolic ploy to entrap mankind), and closing the tab when I saw Beastie. You see, in that culture, there is a meme that certain objects 'attract' demons. Listening to certain songs invites demonic infestation. Watching horror movies practically guarantees it. I vowed then that I would never use FreeBSD. Even though benchmarks showed superior stability and SMP performance than Linux, I couldn't knowingly invite demons into my life like that! By Beastie...Tux, here I come. Thankfully, I deconverted a few months later. But I understand where she is coming from. If she was one the 'warfare' crowd, she'd probably have spent the entire night in fervent prayer, battling the 'forces of darkness.' My mom, for example, would NOT have stayed in that hotel. Wouldn't happen. Oh man, do I have stories to tell! For tidbits on my experiences on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062267 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062267 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611122 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611122 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2202900 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2202900

marshray 15y ago
Thanks for that story. It's probably important to point out that the majority of religious people are not in quite as deep as you were. But they might still be a little bothered by it.
- tptacek 15y ago
  Are you really intending to imply that the majority of religious people would support eliminating the BSD daemon logo? Because that's obviously not true. There are ~300MM in the US. If just 0.1% of them are nutty enough to pitch a fit over a cartoon character, that's still three hundred thousand nuts we have to deal with. Meanwhile, the majority of US adults self-report as Christian. Most of these people are not nuts about depictions of demons, as evidenced by the fact that they aren't protesting DePaul (the largest Catholic university in the country) for naming their sports team "The Blue Demons".

emilis_info 15y ago

So much bullshit in this thread... First of all the logo: http://www.google.com/search?q=devil&tbm=isch http://www.google.com/search?q=devil&tbm=isch Clearly an image of the devil. The pitchfork strengthens this meaning: http://www.symbols.com/old/encyclopedia/05/051.html http://www.symbols.com/old/encyclopedia/05/051.html What is the devil?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil So, the thing in FreeBSD logo is clearly considered to represent personalized evil by a lot of people. Denying the significance of this meaning is stupid and counter-productive. Some of people take the issue of opposing evil very seriously and personally. As we all should (according to our understanding) -- whether it is poverty, poisoning of air and water, unethical business practices, corrupt officials, etc. Now I believe the main cause that this story made the news is the 1000$ (potential?) loss for the hotel and some other demands from the customer. Other than that I doubt it would be considered important by the many people posting here. The customer is called "superstitious". It is also noted that the customer and the complaining hotel owner are both women, while the ISP owner and his tech support person are both male. So we see the cliché of superstitious and irrational women against calm and rational men. So yeah... ignoring the obvious, looking down on people based on their religious beliefs and sex, ignoring them unless the issue involves money... Get over it. If you want more people to like FreeBSD -- change the logo. If you won't -- don't complain.

marshray 15y ago
Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of the devil. Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of censorship. Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of closed-source software. /me makes popcorn.
- emilis_info 15y ago
  As much as USofA political and religious fundamentalism (on all sides) amuses and entertains me, a couple of things make me take it seriously: 1. USA has a very strong political power and exports its culture. 2. I am old enough to have witnessed the effects of state atheism personally and directly in my country. Atheism can be as stupid and evil as any other religion. P.S. I come from Eastern Europe.

justinbaker 15y ago

TL;DR: Stupid customers are stupid. I bet she would feel that a non-Christian would not have the "right" to feel offended and complain about Christian imagery. I am personally an agnostic, and I don't care to deal with the stupid issues that people simple bitch about. I'm okay with anyone's faith, and their beliefs. If these people are this scared of a little, cute demon who has been the logo for FreeBSD for a long length of time and think that staying at a hotel who utilizes the technology for how viable of a solution it is for their use case risks their personal salvation...then that shows the intelligence level of the individual.

45454545 15y ago

Now I am offended. Devil is a great guy. He is doing his job in hell. Do you know how difficult it is to actually define punishments for each and every sin we do? Its practically creativity of 6 billion people versus one guy. Even superhuman powers cannot overcome those odds. But he does and runs hell perfectly from the early days. Then one day one of his employees (daemons) gets some sort of recognitions in (pop?) culture and you take it away. He was just looking good by proxy and people couldn't even stand that. This is just wow.

tptacek 15y ago

Tempest in a teacup. The mascot of one of the largest Catholic universities in the world, DePaul, is a blue demon. Unlike FreeBSD, the Catholic school teams are actually called The Blue Demons. There's nothing you can do about stupid people. They're always going to find something to object to.