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I am always unsure how this applies to someone with an irregular exercise schedule. If, when fasting (intermittent) my exercise is primarily cardio then I will

I am always unsure how this applies to someone with an irregular exercise schedule. If, when fasting (intermittent) my exercise is primarily cardio then I will continue fasting. However if it is resistance training, does getting some protein into my system as soon as possible take priority over fasting? Or is this less important than the immediate-protein-shake crowd suggests? Should I try to pull the window forward if exercising early?

jb_gericke 4y ago
The 'anabolic window' has largely been disproven. Depending on your goals though, from a resistance training perspective you typically need to be in a caloric surplus (although not an excessive one) to put on muscle.
nikkwong 4y ago
I'll assume that your goal when drinking a protein shake/gaining muscle is to gain muscle. It's generally believed that a state of anabolism is generally viewed as being antagonistic to the body; too much protein/growth is taxing. Yet, having muscle is important for aging, and also acts as a glucose sink thereby improving metabolism. A balance has to be achieved. > Or is this less important than the immediate-protein-shake crowd suggests? From what I've read, this may be not as important as originally thought. Overall, I believe the schedule that most holistically supports metabolism would be to exercise early and also eat early in the day. This would thereby keep the taxing metabolic activities aligned to your circadian clock, which expects a lot of early day stressors and fewer as the day progresses. This may be specifically true for protein which is especially metabolically taxing, so eating it early in the day is probably the time when it creates the most benefit at lowest risk. Of course, people have to do what works for their schedules and lifestyles.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > exercise early and also eat early in the day This is slightly contrary to what I’ve learned from Rhonda Patrick. Exercise in the morning, sure, but while still fasting from overnight (black coffee or plain tea ok… does not break the fast). Eat after exercise so that your fast lasts longer. Also, cardio exercise blunts the hunger feeling in many people.
  - girvo 4y ago
    This has been my schedule for my entire adult life, not because I read it, but simply because it felt the "best" for myself. I was never a big breakfast eater anyway, and I found fasted + black coffee exercise the best for myself personally in terms of energy, motivation and so on.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      And I wish I knew this 30 years ago.
      - girvo 4y ago
        My girlfriend pretty consistently gives me grief about it, as it goes against what she's been taught/knew. But I've always felt better doing physical or mental effort fasted, at least for a few hours in the morning!
  - thatcat 4y ago
    If your goal is muscle gain, you need some glucose available during the workout to maximize the weight you can lift.
  - nikkwong 4y ago
    Yeah I'm not suggesting an order between the two. I think everything held constant, eating earlier is supposed to be better. I don't think there have been many studies where people stop eating at like, 10am, or something like that. That said, I think most studies that have shown benefit are those where people have like a 4-8 hour eating window from 6am-2pm, or are of that order. But is there a difference between having your day's large meal at 8am or 11am? Those are both pretty 'early', so it might not matter; I don't think we know. However, as the day winds on, more data comes to light which suggests that earlier is better.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      > more data comes to light which suggests that earlier is better. I have not seen studies like that. All the ones I’ve seen have participants stop eating 3 hours (minimum) before sleep. For example, With an 8 hour eating window and 10:00 sleep, that means eating between 11:00-7:00 giving you a 16 hour fast.
hericium 4y ago
Proteins have 4 calories per gram so if your usual post-workout protein intake would be 20-30g, it'd be 80-120 calories. YMMV but that would move me out of fast. The only calories I ingest during the fast is a little fat for vitamin D bioavailability in the morning. My caloric window is 1-8pm and I exercise in the mornings with just a few essential amino-acids.
- mrmuagi 4y ago
  Not sure, but isn't 20-30% of the protein lost in digestion?
  - hericium 4y ago
    Protein thermic effect is 30% so amount of calories equal to ~30% of that coming from protein is burned to digest protein. You're burning calories, not protein, to digest protein. Those calories are already stored and don't necessarily have to come from protein digestion.
mancerayder 4y ago
You have to time the eating accordingly. I find I don't feel terrible if I lift prior to breaking the fast. And boy does that food taste good.
turkeygizzard 4y ago
I can't comment on fasting in particular, but as another comment pointed out, I think the idea that you need to immediately get protein before/during/after a workout is a bit overblown. My understanding is that protein can be rate-limiting for hypertrophy if you don't have enough in general, but timing is not as largely important. I believe there is a rough window for anabolic signaling / net-positive muscle protein synthesis that lasts up to 48 hours after exercise
lhl 4y ago
A few researchers, notably Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld did a lot of analysis on protein timing research a while back and the general conclusion is that as long as you get enough protein during the course of the day (or within a few hours of your workout), basically it doesn't matter so much. Sources: Aragon, Alan Albert, and Brad Jon Schoenfeld. “Nutrient Timing Revisited: Is There a Post-Exercise Anabolic Window?” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 10 (January 29, 2013): 5. https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5 https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5. Schoenfeld, Brad Jon, Alan Aragon, Colin Wilborn, Stacie L. Urbina, Sara E. Hayward, and James Krieger. “Pre- versus Post-Exercise Protein Intake Has Similar Effects on Muscular Adaptations.” PeerJ 5 (January 3, 2017): e2825. https://doi.org/10.7717/peerj.2825 https://doi.org/10.7717/peerj.2825. Schoenfeld, Brad Jon, Alan Albert Aragon, and James W Krieger. “The Effect of Protein Timing on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy: A Meta-Analysis.” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 10 (December 3, 2013): 53. https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53 https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53. Schoenfeld, Brad Jon, and Alan Albert Aragon. “How Much Protein Can the Body Use in a Single Meal for Muscle-Building? Implications for Daily Protein Distribution.” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 15 (February 27, 2018). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12970-018-0215-1 https://doi.org/10.1186/s12970-018-0215-1. There are some interesting wrinkles (like Leucine intake in particular), and I'd recommend looking at what Stuart M Phillips and Donald K Layman have published as additional places to spelunk from for anyone that's particularly interested in the topic.
- fartsucker69 4y ago
  This has mostly arrived in the consensus of sports training. General advice is to have protein surplus in the 24 hours after training (if you train every day, like an athlete, that means every day). Plus if you're training but want to lose at the same time, you need a caloric surplus for a while to have your muscle regenerate and grow, but it's totally possible to gain muscle and lose weight at the same time. But basically each calory that you're in deficit will make your muscles grow more slowly, so it's definitely harder than being on an overall surplus.
- dragonelite 4y ago
  After doing a 4 hour eating window for years eating at around maintenance and had some cheat meals over the weekend. It kind of kept my weight stable but my strength hardly increased so seems my anecdotal experience kind of seems to match that report. I also heard somewhere it could take like 24~48 hours for all protein sources to be digested and extracted from your bloodstream so you might have like a constant amino acids drip into your bloodstream but i never really checked this.
dominotw 4y ago
This is a very common question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF0AkfJqq2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF0AkfJqq2s
ramoz 4y ago
No. I do IF and lift heavy+cardio every early morning. I have progressively gotten stronger - benching over 330 and squatting well into the 400s. Ive spent a lot of heartache and headache over research around these type of questions. The best answer is to learn what works best for your own body. Eat enough protein as a starter in any case.

jb_gericke 4y ago

The 'anabolic window' has largely been disproven. Depending on your goals though, from a resistance training perspective you typically need to be in a caloric surplus (although not an excessive one) to put on muscle.

nikkwong 4y ago

I'll assume that your goal when drinking a protein shake/gaining muscle is to gain muscle. It's generally believed that a state of anabolism is generally viewed as being antagonistic to the body; too much protein/growth is taxing. Yet, having muscle is important for aging, and also acts as a glucose sink thereby improving metabolism. A balance has to be achieved. > Or is this less important than the immediate-protein-shake crowd suggests? From what I've read, this may be not as important as originally thought. Overall, I believe the schedule that most holistically supports metabolism would be to exercise early and also eat early in the day. This would thereby keep the taxing metabolic activities aligned to your circadian clock, which expects a lot of early day stressors and fewer as the day progresses. This may be specifically true for protein which is especially metabolically taxing, so eating it early in the day is probably the time when it creates the most benefit at lowest risk. Of course, people have to do what works for their schedules and lifestyles.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> exercise early and also eat early in the day This is slightly contrary to what I’ve learned from Rhonda Patrick. Exercise in the morning, sure, but while still fasting from overnight (black coffee or plain tea ok… does not break the fast). Eat after exercise so that your fast lasts longer. Also, cardio exercise blunts the hunger feeling in many people.
- girvo 4y ago
  This has been my schedule for my entire adult life, not because I read it, but simply because it felt the "best" for myself. I was never a big breakfast eater anyway, and I found fasted + black coffee exercise the best for myself personally in terms of energy, motivation and so on.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    And I wish I knew this 30 years ago.
    - girvo 4y ago
      My girlfriend pretty consistently gives me grief about it, as it goes against what she's been taught/knew. But I've always felt better doing physical or mental effort fasted, at least for a few hours in the morning!
- thatcat 4y ago
  If your goal is muscle gain, you need some glucose available during the workout to maximize the weight you can lift.
- nikkwong 4y ago
  Yeah I'm not suggesting an order between the two. I think everything held constant, eating earlier is supposed to be better. I don't think there have been many studies where people stop eating at like, 10am, or something like that. That said, I think most studies that have shown benefit are those where people have like a 4-8 hour eating window from 6am-2pm, or are of that order. But is there a difference between having your day's large meal at 8am or 11am? Those are both pretty 'early', so it might not matter; I don't think we know. However, as the day winds on, more data comes to light which suggests that earlier is better.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    > more data comes to light which suggests that earlier is better. I have not seen studies like that. All the ones I’ve seen have participants stop eating 3 hours (minimum) before sleep. For example, With an 8 hour eating window and 10:00 sleep, that means eating between 11:00-7:00 giving you a 16 hour fast.

hericium 4y ago

Proteins have 4 calories per gram so if your usual post-workout protein intake would be 20-30g, it'd be 80-120 calories. YMMV but that would move me out of fast. The only calories I ingest during the fast is a little fat for vitamin D bioavailability in the morning. My caloric window is 1-8pm and I exercise in the mornings with just a few essential amino-acids.

mrmuagi 4y ago
Not sure, but isn't 20-30% of the protein lost in digestion?
- hericium 4y ago
  Protein thermic effect is 30% so amount of calories equal to ~30% of that coming from protein is burned to digest protein. You're burning calories, not protein, to digest protein. Those calories are already stored and don't necessarily have to come from protein digestion.

mancerayder 4y ago

You have to time the eating accordingly. I find I don't feel terrible if I lift prior to breaking the fast. And boy does that food taste good.

turkeygizzard 4y ago

I can't comment on fasting in particular, but as another comment pointed out, I think the idea that you need to immediately get protein before/during/after a workout is a bit overblown. My understanding is that protein can be rate-limiting for hypertrophy if you don't have enough in general, but timing is not as largely important. I believe there is a rough window for anabolic signaling / net-positive muscle protein synthesis that lasts up to 48 hours after exercise

lhl 4y ago

A few researchers, notably Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld did a lot of analysis on protein timing research a while back and the general conclusion is that as long as you get enough protein during the course of the day (or within a few hours of your workout), basically it doesn't matter so much. Sources: Aragon, Alan Albert, and Brad Jon Schoenfeld. “Nutrient Timing Revisited: Is There a Post-Exercise Anabolic Window?” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 10 (January 29, 2013): 5. https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5 https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5. Schoenfeld, Brad Jon, Alan Aragon, Colin Wilborn, Stacie L. Urbina, Sara E. Hayward, and James Krieger. “Pre- versus Post-Exercise Protein Intake Has Similar Effects on Muscular Adaptations.” PeerJ 5 (January 3, 2017): e2825. https://doi.org/10.7717/peerj.2825 https://doi.org/10.7717/peerj.2825. Schoenfeld, Brad Jon, Alan Albert Aragon, and James W Krieger. “The Effect of Protein Timing on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy: A Meta-Analysis.” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 10 (December 3, 2013): 53. https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53 https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53. Schoenfeld, Brad Jon, and Alan Albert Aragon. “How Much Protein Can the Body Use in a Single Meal for Muscle-Building? Implications for Daily Protein Distribution.” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 15 (February 27, 2018). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12970-018-0215-1 https://doi.org/10.1186/s12970-018-0215-1. There are some interesting wrinkles (like Leucine intake in particular), and I'd recommend looking at what Stuart M Phillips and Donald K Layman have published as additional places to spelunk from for anyone that's particularly interested in the topic.

fartsucker69 4y ago
This has mostly arrived in the consensus of sports training. General advice is to have protein surplus in the 24 hours after training (if you train every day, like an athlete, that means every day). Plus if you're training but want to lose at the same time, you need a caloric surplus for a while to have your muscle regenerate and grow, but it's totally possible to gain muscle and lose weight at the same time. But basically each calory that you're in deficit will make your muscles grow more slowly, so it's definitely harder than being on an overall surplus.
dragonelite 4y ago
After doing a 4 hour eating window for years eating at around maintenance and had some cheat meals over the weekend. It kind of kept my weight stable but my strength hardly increased so seems my anecdotal experience kind of seems to match that report. I also heard somewhere it could take like 24~48 hours for all protein sources to be digested and extracted from your bloodstream so you might have like a constant amino acids drip into your bloodstream but i never really checked this.

dominotw 4y ago

This is a very common question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF0AkfJqq2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF0AkfJqq2s

ramoz 4y ago

No. I do IF and lift heavy+cardio every early morning. I have progressively gotten stronger - benching over 330 and squatting well into the 400s. Ive spent a lot of heartache and headache over research around these type of questions. The best answer is to learn what works best for your own body. Eat enough protein as a starter in any case.