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Everyone saying you should hardwire these cameras is right, of course. But what you are missing is that the majority of people (at least in the US) are renters

Everyone saying you should hardwire these cameras is right, of course. But what you are missing is that the majority of people (at least in the US) are renters (or otherwise have restrictions), which means you can’t wire cameras. Wireless cameras and doorbells are crucial for renters having any semblance of security.

graton 4y ago
> But what you are missing is that the majority of people (at least in the US) are renters (or otherwise have restrictions) According to the St Louis Fed 65% of US households are home-owners[1]. Now if there is some other data about "or otherwise have restrictions" to show how it becomes a majority of US, I would be interested in seeing that. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N
- WaxProlix 4y ago
  Condos or other HOA situations would be a good start to look at. See [1] maybe? 1 https://magazine.realtor/daily-news/2020/09/23/record-number-of-homeowners-live-in-hoa-communities https://magazine.realtor/daily-news/2020/09/23/record-number...
  - graton 4y ago
    Condos is a possibility. But if the HOA allows a WiFi camera on the outside of a house, then I can't see why they wouldn't allow a wired camera on the outside of a house.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- xapata 4y ago
  I don't want to drill through my brick.
  - bsenftner 4y ago
    There is a product called "ghost wire" - about 6 inches of paper thin Ethernet specifically formed for fitting into the gap between a window frame and the sliding glass. The Ethernet itself is shaped like the letter "U", so it conforms to the paper thin gap and the window still operates normal. These are designed to enable Ethernet to transparently (without building alteration) be added to properties that cannot/shouldn't be altered.
    - aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
      Or run an opto-coupler through the window pane!
javajosh 4y ago
I saw a wifi camera that replaces a lightbulb. It takes power from the light socket. I don't see why you couldn't make one that also used the power line as a network cable, too. Would require no installation and could be used at your next house.
- MrStonedOne 4y ago
  hardware required for isolation of powerline communication is gonna be hard to stuff in that small of a space. Powerline tends to be sorta unreliable and only runs at like 5-15% of the rated max speed, but if you had buffering at the camera to ensure all frames made it to the otherside, you could work around that.
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
  That’s pretty interesting, does it look like a light bulb? Or it something that uses the socket just as a pass through?
  - 5555624 4y ago
    No or at least the one I have does not. It's similar to this one on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KMVD13T https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KMVD13T). I was just looking for a quick and simple solution to check for package delivery. (I'm disabled; so, just hopping up and checking the front porch isn't simple.) I have the camera's app on an old phone, sitting on my desk. It detects motion and I can control it to check the entire porch. Not as good as a wired system; but, it works.
- VTimofeenko 4y ago
  Power line as network cable is a thing, it's called power line communication (PLC, [1]). It was used in some home automation hardware back in the day, probably still used in industrial setting. AFAIU the noise is too high to be useable in residential 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication
  - 4y ago
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
You certainly can wire cameras even if you are a renter, without doing any damage to the property. It is no different than running a wire to your computer from a router in another room. You just can't poke a bunch of holes in the wall. I'm not a renter, but I don't want my camera on a network or susceptible to jammers so I have a camera on my porch with a 50' wire running inside the small gap at the upper corner of my door, and up the stairs.
- tristor 4y ago
  > small gap at the upper corner of my door I’ve done similar things indoors, however there should be no gaps with properly hung and weatherstripped exterior doors, at least there aren’t in any of the places I’ve lived, purely for energy reasons.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - StanislavPetrov 4y ago
    I've made no claims that my home is energy efficient!
- s__s 4y ago
  It undoubtedly varies based on local law and landlord, but where I’m from, as a renter you can typically put as many holes in the walls as you want as long as you properly patch them up when you move out. Same goes for painting and other modifications.
ALittleLight 4y ago
If you are relying on the cameras for deterrence though then even wiring them wouldn't help. The burglars or thieves would activate their jammer and then attack the house without realizing the jamming was ineffective.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jon-wood 4y ago
> Wireless cameras and doorbells are crucial for renters having any semblance of security. This seems hyperbolic to me. You don’t need internet connected cameras and doorbells for your home to have a semblance of security. That’s what locks are for, and maybe a big fence behind the house. Most people won’t ever have their home broken in to - according to a quick Google there were ~192,000 burglaries reported in 2021 in England & Wales. Extrapolate that over a typical lifetime and you’ll see 15.3 million nationwide, which for a population of about 65 million people means 76% of people never have anyone break in. Wireless cameras and doorbells are, on the whole, products which rather than giving peace of mind leave people constantly worried that someone is going to do something, after all, we can see the constant stream of suspicious looking people setting of the motion detection.
- mike-cardwell 4y ago
  It should be based on households rather than population. There were 24,782,800 households in England and Wales on the last Census Day in 2021. Meaning by your other figures/logic, you have a 62% chance of being burgled at some point if you live in England or Wales. I.e, you're more likely to get burgled than not.
  - jon-wood 4y ago
    Good point, and does definitely push the numbers towards the risk being somewhat higher than I intuitively think of. I still won’t be fitting cameras all over my property though!
    - jetbooster 4y ago
      It is also making the assumption that adding cameras to your house makes you unburglable, which is far from true. Not that it doesn't reduce the likelihood. All the camera allows you to do is point at some vaguely humanoid figures in your house to the police (who will likely not be able to do anything about it) and to your insurance (who likely would have paid out anyway) What I'd like to know is if turning your house into a fortress makes you _more_ of a target to a specific subset of professional high-end thieves, as they know you have valuable stuff that you would like to protect.

graton 4y ago

> But what you are missing is that the majority of people (at least in the US) are renters (or otherwise have restrictions) According to the St Louis Fed 65% of US households are home-owners[1]. Now if there is some other data about "or otherwise have restrictions" to show how it becomes a majority of US, I would be interested in seeing that. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N

WaxProlix 4y ago
Condos or other HOA situations would be a good start to look at. See [1] maybe? 1 https://magazine.realtor/daily-news/2020/09/23/record-number-of-homeowners-live-in-hoa-communities https://magazine.realtor/daily-news/2020/09/23/record-number...
- graton 4y ago
  Condos is a possibility. But if the HOA allows a WiFi camera on the outside of a house, then I can't see why they wouldn't allow a wired camera on the outside of a house.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
xapata 4y ago
I don't want to drill through my brick.
- bsenftner 4y ago
  There is a product called "ghost wire" - about 6 inches of paper thin Ethernet specifically formed for fitting into the gap between a window frame and the sliding glass. The Ethernet itself is shaped like the letter "U", so it conforms to the paper thin gap and the window still operates normal. These are designed to enable Ethernet to transparently (without building alteration) be added to properties that cannot/shouldn't be altered.
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
    Or run an opto-coupler through the window pane!

javajosh 4y ago

I saw a wifi camera that replaces a lightbulb. It takes power from the light socket. I don't see why you couldn't make one that also used the power line as a network cable, too. Would require no installation and could be used at your next house.

MrStonedOne 4y ago
hardware required for isolation of powerline communication is gonna be hard to stuff in that small of a space. Powerline tends to be sorta unreliable and only runs at like 5-15% of the rated max speed, but if you had buffering at the camera to ensure all frames made it to the otherside, you could work around that.
GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
That’s pretty interesting, does it look like a light bulb? Or it something that uses the socket just as a pass through?
- 5555624 4y ago
  No or at least the one I have does not. It's similar to this one on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KMVD13T https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KMVD13T). I was just looking for a quick and simple solution to check for package delivery. (I'm disabled; so, just hopping up and checking the front porch isn't simple.) I have the camera's app on an old phone, sitting on my desk. It detects motion and I can control it to check the entire porch. Not as good as a wired system; but, it works.
VTimofeenko 4y ago
Power line as network cable is a thing, it's called power line communication (PLC, [1]). It was used in some home automation hardware back in the day, probably still used in industrial setting. AFAIU the noise is too high to be useable in residential 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication
- 4y ago

StanislavPetrov 4y ago

You certainly can wire cameras even if you are a renter, without doing any damage to the property. It is no different than running a wire to your computer from a router in another room. You just can't poke a bunch of holes in the wall. I'm not a renter, but I don't want my camera on a network or susceptible to jammers so I have a camera on my porch with a 50' wire running inside the small gap at the upper corner of my door, and up the stairs.

tristor 4y ago
> small gap at the upper corner of my door I’ve done similar things indoors, however there should be no gaps with properly hung and weatherstripped exterior doors, at least there aren’t in any of the places I’ve lived, purely for energy reasons.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  I've made no claims that my home is energy efficient!
s__s 4y ago
It undoubtedly varies based on local law and landlord, but where I’m from, as a renter you can typically put as many holes in the walls as you want as long as you properly patch them up when you move out. Same goes for painting and other modifications.

ALittleLight 4y ago

If you are relying on the cameras for deterrence though then even wiring them wouldn't help. The burglars or thieves would activate their jammer and then attack the house without realizing the jamming was ineffective.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jon-wood 4y ago

> Wireless cameras and doorbells are crucial for renters having any semblance of security. This seems hyperbolic to me. You don’t need internet connected cameras and doorbells for your home to have a semblance of security. That’s what locks are for, and maybe a big fence behind the house. Most people won’t ever have their home broken in to - according to a quick Google there were ~192,000 burglaries reported in 2021 in England & Wales. Extrapolate that over a typical lifetime and you’ll see 15.3 million nationwide, which for a population of about 65 million people means 76% of people never have anyone break in. Wireless cameras and doorbells are, on the whole, products which rather than giving peace of mind leave people constantly worried that someone is going to do something, after all, we can see the constant stream of suspicious looking people setting of the motion detection.

mike-cardwell 4y ago
It should be based on households rather than population. There were 24,782,800 households in England and Wales on the last Census Day in 2021. Meaning by your other figures/logic, you have a 62% chance of being burgled at some point if you live in England or Wales. I.e, you're more likely to get burgled than not.
- jon-wood 4y ago
  Good point, and does definitely push the numbers towards the risk being somewhat higher than I intuitively think of. I still won’t be fitting cameras all over my property though!
  - jetbooster 4y ago
    It is also making the assumption that adding cameras to your house makes you unburglable, which is far from true. Not that it doesn't reduce the likelihood. All the camera allows you to do is point at some vaguely humanoid figures in your house to the police (who will likely not be able to do anything about it) and to your insurance (who likely would have paid out anyway) What I'd like to know is if turning your house into a fortress makes you _more_ of a target to a specific subset of professional high-end thieves, as they know you have valuable stuff that you would like to protect.