4 ms·

A side question: how does one plan urban surviving? I'm sure even a nuclear war won't wipe out any of the major governments out there so stability would be re-e

A side question: how does one plan urban surviving? I'm sure even a nuclear war won't wipe out any of the major governments out there so stability would be re-established maybe in a few weeks. But the initial chaos could be deadly to whoever survived the initial blast. Does anyone know where to hide if sirens sound?

thakoppno 4y ago
I would not rule out the chance to preserve a nucleus of human specimens. It would be quite easy at the bottom of some of our deeper mineshafts. Radioactivity would never penetrate a mine some thousands of feet deep, and in a matter of weeks, sufficient improvements in dwelling space could easily be provided possibly for one hundred years. Nuclear reactors could provide power almost indefinitely. Greenhouses could maintain plant life. Animals could be bred and slaughtered. A quick survey would have to be made of all the available mine sites in the country, but I would guess that dwelling space for several hundred thousands of our people could easily be provided. A computer could be set and programmed to accept factors from youth, health, sexual fertility, intelligence, and a cross-section of necessary skills. Of course, it would be absolutely vital that our top government and military men be included to foster and impart the required principles of leadership and tradition. Naturally, they would breed prodigiously. There would be much time, and little to do. With the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of say, ten females to each male, I would guess that they could then work their way back to the present Gross National Product within say, twenty years.
- SteveNuts 4y ago
  In 20 years the first generation would be only a couple years into their careers
- 5d8767c68926 4y ago
  Is this still technically true? Since the movie was released, both sides developed bunker busters to dig deep into fortified military installations. If salt mines did become part of the continuation strategy, you would think they would be likely to be targeted in an exchange.
  - thakoppno 4y ago
    I don’t know that this plan was ever technically true at any time. Instead it highlighted to me the absolute futility in avoiding destruction in the event of thermonuclear war. It may still be a plausible best bet in this abhorrent scenario. Surely you must imagine any perceived reinforced bunker gap would have been addressed in some inconspicuous military funding bill in the past 60 years.
- bitL 4y ago
  Water gets anywhere, mineshafts are unlikely to be safe after a while.
  - amelius 4y ago
    A submarine seems like the best place to be.
- chromatin 4y ago
  Mister President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!
- messe 4y ago
  I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Isn’t this a movie?
  - thakoppno 4y ago
    Indeed this is from the conclusion of Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964). It’s by far my favorite movie.
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      It's my wife's favorite movie (make of that what you will) and it provides an infinite amount of meme-able content.
eganist 4y ago
I live in the DC area. If there's a confirmed warhead inbound, I'm standing on a rooftop. I don't want to live in the hellscape that'll follow.
liuliu 4y ago
My plan is to go to anywhere subterranean (basement levels in my building) and having enough food & water for 4 to 5 days. That should be enough to avoid the initial radiation harms.
- markus_zhang 4y ago
  With brick and wooden basement I'm not sure if it's good enough to keep radiation out. In a war probably there will ne blasts in all directions so wind always bring some radiation. I'm not sure what kind of air filtering can keep radiation out...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
vorpalhex 4y ago
You need about two weeks for radiation levels to drop. Ideally you are underground or have several walls and air filtering between you and contaminated regions. Past that, food becomes a meaningful issue since your topsoil is quite irradiated. You will probably have a shorter lifespan by a decade or so but obviously much longer than perishing immediately.
- vkou 4y ago
  You will almost certainly die either in the first few minutes, or in the first few weeks following nuclear war, because our society is built on a house of cards of global supply chains, which will all go directly, and irreversibly (at least, within timelines that will matter to your survival) straight to shit. Some of the architects of the war might survive in their hardened bunkers, if they are out of the way enough. I'm of a mind that they should not be allowed to outlive their constituents, but this does not seem to be a popular opinion.
- markus_zhang 4y ago
  Sounds like my brick and wooden basement is not going to work. Also the air filtering is not good enough. I guess the real chance is to learn survival, live far away from cities, preferably close to mountains and try to live by hunting for two weeks? Guess I can also keep a vehicle and some gas too after those two weeks. Anything more would need a proper shelter.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Just make sure the air situation is sorted. You really don't want to leave cover during that time. Two weeks is not a lot of food to stock. Even experienced hunters have bad days. Hunting requires cooking and hunting is a riskier activity for injury. Nobody is around immediately post nuke to sew you back together.
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    Air filtering is partially helped by the fact that most people nowadays have some supply of good masks, which can ensure that any radioactive dust stays outside of you instead of giving you lung cancer.
bitL 4y ago
Underground (reinforced concrete) is the only chance to survive, albeit slim. After you lucked out, you'd still need prepared bags of water, long-term rations, radiation monitor, heavy-duty tools to dig out, mask + hazard suit, batteries, Faraday cage for any electronics to survive etc. Sirens are unlikely to help, the government would have to interrupt any broadcasts and tell you about nukes coming.
- elihu 4y ago
  It really depends on how far you are from the nearest blasts, and how big they were, and which way the winds are blowing. Even in a massive nuclear exchange, there will still be places in the United States hundreds of miles from the nearest blast. Those people could be fine if they take adequate protection from fallout, and if they can survive supply chain collapse and who knows how long of nuclear winter and poor agricultural output.
TheAceOfHearts 4y ago
Many buildings which were constructed during the cold war era tend to have reinforced concrete shelters in the basement. Prepped wisdom is to have a bag ready to go with everything you need to survive for 24 hours after a major incident.
- markus_zhang 4y ago
  Makes sense. I'll start surveying the buildings in surrounding areas. Could also be fun to search for building records. I guess I also need an axe to cut open the doors because those buildings are usually locked.
elihu 4y ago
Nuclear War Survival Skills (1987) has a lot of suggestions about what to do: https://ia800501.us.archive.org/35/items/NuclearWarSurvivalSkills_201405/nwss.pdf https://ia800501.us.archive.org/35/items/NuclearWarSurvivalS... I'm no expert, but I think the general idea is: don't be caught out in the open when the blasts go off -- you're likely to be blinded and/or burned even before the shock wave gets to you. If you survive the initial blast, then "skyshine" becomes the main threat. Radioactive elements resulting from the nuclear reaction emit gamma rays that can go through most materials including walls. Best bet is to either be underground or under something made of cement. Basements generally aren't very good shelter, but you might be able to improvise something workable -- like hiding under a sturdy table surrounded and covered by sand bags or whatever dense materials are immediately at hand. Fires also might be a problem. You might be forced to leave your shelter if everything is burning. The worst radiation is in the first hour or so, and unfortunately that's time you'd normally be spending trying to get somewhere safe or improvising shelter. It falls off over the next few days or weeks. It's hard to know exactly when it's safe to come out without a device to measure gamma radiation (which can actually be built out of basic materials) or government reports which you might be able to receive by radio or something. Radioactive ash is a problem. Use masks to avoid breathing it in, and don't eat or drink anything that might be contaminated. Peeling fruit is usually good enough. If you can leave the area, it's probably a good idea to wash yourself thoroughly and throw away your contaminated clothes. Being near a nuclear blast isn't necessarily certain death. For some people it will be, but there will always be a large radius around the blast where people could survive if they're reasonably lucky and/or do the right things.
acidburnNSA 4y ago
Inside, in the most inside part of wherever you can get to within 10 minutes of the blast (before the fallout starts snowing down). If you stay sheltered, you can survive. Try to minimize airflow. Try to stay inside for 2 weeks. The first hours are by far the worst. If you're outside 10 minutes after the blast, and it starts snowing, you've probably already gotten a fatal dose and will likely die a painful death from acute radiation syndrome within the next two weeks. JUST GO INSIDE
- graderjs 4y ago
  What kind of structure can you avoid the initial flash and heat wave (if not the concussive / overpressure blast wave)? Concrete? Brick? Can you just get behind a 6 inch concrete wall and you are OK from the flash and heat wave? What if you dive under the water (in a pool or whatnot)?
  - acidburnNSA 4y ago
    Heavily-reinforced concrete and/or underground. The more rebar, the better. Jumping in a pool won't help much if you're in the big part of a pressure wave, I'd guess, since the water would probably all be removed. Anywhere near a 20 psi overpressure thermonuclear blast near the target is going to be rough. Survivors will likely be on the outskirts of wherever it hits, being honest. The amount more powerful a modern big fusion bomb is than what we dropped on Japan in 1945 boggles the mind. It's almost impossible to conceive of how bad they are. Like, if a huge one was dropped on San Fran, about a million people would be dead immediately, plus some unknown potentially large number more due to fallout. Simulated map here: https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=2300&lat=37.7564509&lng=-122.4245517&hob_psi=5&hob_ft=13523&fallout=1&ff=50&psi=20,5,1&zm=11 https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=2300&lat=37.7564509&...
    - graderjs 4y ago
      Yeah new bombs are crazy. No loss of cool if you're not--you're a nuke physicist, that's cool enough--but are you The Nukemap guy? Wow! That site is great, but scary.
remarkEon 4y ago
>how does one plan urban surviving? Suddenly a lot of people are going to find wisdom in the second amendment.

thakoppno 4y ago

I would not rule out the chance to preserve a nucleus of human specimens. It would be quite easy at the bottom of some of our deeper mineshafts. Radioactivity would never penetrate a mine some thousands of feet deep, and in a matter of weeks, sufficient improvements in dwelling space could easily be provided possibly for one hundred years. Nuclear reactors could provide power almost indefinitely. Greenhouses could maintain plant life. Animals could be bred and slaughtered. A quick survey would have to be made of all the available mine sites in the country, but I would guess that dwelling space for several hundred thousands of our people could easily be provided. A computer could be set and programmed to accept factors from youth, health, sexual fertility, intelligence, and a cross-section of necessary skills. Of course, it would be absolutely vital that our top government and military men be included to foster and impart the required principles of leadership and tradition. Naturally, they would breed prodigiously. There would be much time, and little to do. With the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of say, ten females to each male, I would guess that they could then work their way back to the present Gross National Product within say, twenty years.

SteveNuts 4y ago
In 20 years the first generation would be only a couple years into their careers
5d8767c68926 4y ago
Is this still technically true? Since the movie was released, both sides developed bunker busters to dig deep into fortified military installations. If salt mines did become part of the continuation strategy, you would think they would be likely to be targeted in an exchange.
- thakoppno 4y ago
  I don’t know that this plan was ever technically true at any time. Instead it highlighted to me the absolute futility in avoiding destruction in the event of thermonuclear war. It may still be a plausible best bet in this abhorrent scenario. Surely you must imagine any perceived reinforced bunker gap would have been addressed in some inconspicuous military funding bill in the past 60 years.
bitL 4y ago
Water gets anywhere, mineshafts are unlikely to be safe after a while.
- amelius 4y ago
  A submarine seems like the best place to be.
chromatin 4y ago
Mister President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!
messe 4y ago
I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Isn’t this a movie?
- thakoppno 4y ago
  Indeed this is from the conclusion of Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964). It’s by far my favorite movie.
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    It's my wife's favorite movie (make of that what you will) and it provides an infinite amount of meme-able content.

eganist 4y ago

I live in the DC area. If there's a confirmed warhead inbound, I'm standing on a rooftop. I don't want to live in the hellscape that'll follow.

liuliu 4y ago

My plan is to go to anywhere subterranean (basement levels in my building) and having enough food & water for 4 to 5 days. That should be enough to avoid the initial radiation harms.

markus_zhang 4y ago
With brick and wooden basement I'm not sure if it's good enough to keep radiation out. In a war probably there will ne blasts in all directions so wind always bring some radiation. I'm not sure what kind of air filtering can keep radiation out...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

vorpalhex 4y ago

You need about two weeks for radiation levels to drop. Ideally you are underground or have several walls and air filtering between you and contaminated regions. Past that, food becomes a meaningful issue since your topsoil is quite irradiated. You will probably have a shorter lifespan by a decade or so but obviously much longer than perishing immediately.

vkou 4y ago
You will almost certainly die either in the first few minutes, or in the first few weeks following nuclear war, because our society is built on a house of cards of global supply chains, which will all go directly, and irreversibly (at least, within timelines that will matter to your survival) straight to shit. Some of the architects of the war might survive in their hardened bunkers, if they are out of the way enough. I'm of a mind that they should not be allowed to outlive their constituents, but this does not seem to be a popular opinion.
markus_zhang 4y ago
Sounds like my brick and wooden basement is not going to work. Also the air filtering is not good enough. I guess the real chance is to learn survival, live far away from cities, preferably close to mountains and try to live by hunting for two weeks? Guess I can also keep a vehicle and some gas too after those two weeks. Anything more would need a proper shelter.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Just make sure the air situation is sorted. You really don't want to leave cover during that time. Two weeks is not a lot of food to stock. Even experienced hunters have bad days. Hunting requires cooking and hunting is a riskier activity for injury. Nobody is around immediately post nuke to sew you back together.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  Air filtering is partially helped by the fact that most people nowadays have some supply of good masks, which can ensure that any radioactive dust stays outside of you instead of giving you lung cancer.

bitL 4y ago

Underground (reinforced concrete) is the only chance to survive, albeit slim. After you lucked out, you'd still need prepared bags of water, long-term rations, radiation monitor, heavy-duty tools to dig out, mask + hazard suit, batteries, Faraday cage for any electronics to survive etc. Sirens are unlikely to help, the government would have to interrupt any broadcasts and tell you about nukes coming.

elihu 4y ago
It really depends on how far you are from the nearest blasts, and how big they were, and which way the winds are blowing. Even in a massive nuclear exchange, there will still be places in the United States hundreds of miles from the nearest blast. Those people could be fine if they take adequate protection from fallout, and if they can survive supply chain collapse and who knows how long of nuclear winter and poor agricultural output.

TheAceOfHearts 4y ago

Many buildings which were constructed during the cold war era tend to have reinforced concrete shelters in the basement. Prepped wisdom is to have a bag ready to go with everything you need to survive for 24 hours after a major incident.

markus_zhang 4y ago
Makes sense. I'll start surveying the buildings in surrounding areas. Could also be fun to search for building records. I guess I also need an axe to cut open the doors because those buildings are usually locked.

elihu 4y ago

Nuclear War Survival Skills (1987) has a lot of suggestions about what to do: https://ia800501.us.archive.org/35/items/NuclearWarSurvivalSkills_201405/nwss.pdf https://ia800501.us.archive.org/35/items/NuclearWarSurvivalS... I'm no expert, but I think the general idea is: don't be caught out in the open when the blasts go off -- you're likely to be blinded and/or burned even before the shock wave gets to you. If you survive the initial blast, then "skyshine" becomes the main threat. Radioactive elements resulting from the nuclear reaction emit gamma rays that can go through most materials including walls. Best bet is to either be underground or under something made of cement. Basements generally aren't very good shelter, but you might be able to improvise something workable -- like hiding under a sturdy table surrounded and covered by sand bags or whatever dense materials are immediately at hand. Fires also might be a problem. You might be forced to leave your shelter if everything is burning. The worst radiation is in the first hour or so, and unfortunately that's time you'd normally be spending trying to get somewhere safe or improvising shelter. It falls off over the next few days or weeks. It's hard to know exactly when it's safe to come out without a device to measure gamma radiation (which can actually be built out of basic materials) or government reports which you might be able to receive by radio or something. Radioactive ash is a problem. Use masks to avoid breathing it in, and don't eat or drink anything that might be contaminated. Peeling fruit is usually good enough. If you can leave the area, it's probably a good idea to wash yourself thoroughly and throw away your contaminated clothes. Being near a nuclear blast isn't necessarily certain death. For some people it will be, but there will always be a large radius around the blast where people could survive if they're reasonably lucky and/or do the right things.

acidburnNSA 4y ago

Inside, in the most inside part of wherever you can get to within 10 minutes of the blast (before the fallout starts snowing down). If you stay sheltered, you can survive. Try to minimize airflow. Try to stay inside for 2 weeks. The first hours are by far the worst. If you're outside 10 minutes after the blast, and it starts snowing, you've probably already gotten a fatal dose and will likely die a painful death from acute radiation syndrome within the next two weeks. JUST GO INSIDE

graderjs 4y ago
What kind of structure can you avoid the initial flash and heat wave (if not the concussive / overpressure blast wave)? Concrete? Brick? Can you just get behind a 6 inch concrete wall and you are OK from the flash and heat wave? What if you dive under the water (in a pool or whatnot)?
- acidburnNSA 4y ago
  Heavily-reinforced concrete and/or underground. The more rebar, the better. Jumping in a pool won't help much if you're in the big part of a pressure wave, I'd guess, since the water would probably all be removed. Anywhere near a 20 psi overpressure thermonuclear blast near the target is going to be rough. Survivors will likely be on the outskirts of wherever it hits, being honest. The amount more powerful a modern big fusion bomb is than what we dropped on Japan in 1945 boggles the mind. It's almost impossible to conceive of how bad they are. Like, if a huge one was dropped on San Fran, about a million people would be dead immediately, plus some unknown potentially large number more due to fallout. Simulated map here: https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=2300&lat=37.7564509&lng=-122.4245517&hob_psi=5&hob_ft=13523&fallout=1&ff=50&psi=20,5,1&zm=11 https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=2300&lat=37.7564509&...
  - graderjs 4y ago
    Yeah new bombs are crazy. No loss of cool if you're not--you're a nuke physicist, that's cool enough--but are you The Nukemap guy? Wow! That site is great, but scary.

remarkEon 4y ago

>how does one plan urban surviving? Suddenly a lot of people are going to find wisdom in the second amendment.