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Cheating at 3+2 games while streaming? How's it is even possible to input all moves/positions into a chess program in parallel too main game and also while comm

Cheating at 3+2 games while streaming? How's it is even possible to input all moves/positions into a chess program in parallel too main game and also while commenting? IMO it is impossible without some very specialized software or external assistance who would do the clicks. And how does he cheat in over the board events?

perihelions 4y ago
Computer vision for chess is widely available (and very useful!) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19563768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19563768 ("Chessvision.ai – Analyze chess position from websites, images or video", 49 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21162466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21162466 ("Show HN: ChessBoss – enhancing physical chessboards with computer vision", 36 comments)
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  Things that are easy for some members of HN crowd are likely not that easy for a 19yo person who's only notable achievement in life so far is being really good at chess (well, presumably). Such software also doesn't explain his OTB results, which are consistent with his online results.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
    Some OTB tournaments allow players to go to the bathroom with their phone, others allow audience in same room - so an accomplice (such as Hans' coach Maxim Dlugy - another admitted cheat) could relay moves via signal. I've seen suggestion on Hiraku's channel that current scanning for players for communication devices is sub-par, although Hans has offered to play naked to disprove that theory (some porno site is calling his bluff by offering him $1M to actually do it). Anal beads? I dunno ... Magnus has estimated it would usually only take one or two computer corrections per game for himself to play perfectly, so we're not talking about every move, just at key points. Apparently even just an indication that there is some key/winning move at a given point, without indicating what it is, is enough for the player to stop and put in the time to find it.
- ccooffee 4y ago
  Here's a story from Reddit about someone using these systems during over-the-board play to cheat: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/xigymh/oops_local_chess_club_is_run_by_an_extremely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/xigy...
fxtentacle 4y ago
Human assistant?
Version467 4y ago
I don't know how market leading chess cheating software works, but it's not that hard to imagine that it just captures the screen, or scrapes the moves in any number of ways automatically is it? I'm sure it's not needed to manually type in all the moves. As to how he'd cheat over the board, that's the big question. There are a couple of theories floating around, some more realistic than others, but if we knew for sure than this whole debacle would already be over.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  Anyway his over the board results are more or less consistent with his online results, so either he has invented some cheating method that had evaded detection for many years at top level events, or that he is really good on his own.
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    I mean, probably the worst way to cheat is 'mindlessly'. If you're doing nothing more than 'transcribing' moves from one client to the other, sure. But if I'm cheating and trying to figure out maximum ROI, I'm looking at what the computer did for me, trying to understand it and figure it out. That way I can learn and get better myself, as well as talk/bluff intelligently about why "I" might have made a certain move.
bluecalm 4y ago
3+2 is a lot of time to input the moves several times over and prepare coffee in the meantime. Seriously, it's not a slightest problem for a competent online blitz player. OTB cheating: there are many possible ways. The simplest one being having a script reading the moves from the live broadcast and feeding them to an engine and then sending the info to the player. Hans' strength magically decreased in the Sinquefield cup once broadcast delay was introduced for example.
- energyy 4y ago
  > Hans' strength magically decreased in the Sinquefield cup once broadcast delay was introduced for example. This might be the solution. But then on-site audience would need to be monitored as well.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  > Hans' strength magically decreased in the Sinquefield cup once broadcast delay was introduced for example. So you discount a possibility that the controversy and allegations against him had at least some effect in him playing worse in the Sinquefield Cup? Anyway, there were studies out there that there were no statistical differences in his rating gains in tournaments broadcasted with delays and without it. Study by Kenneth Regan also found no irregularities in his play, so the only 'evidence' of him using computer help are allegations by a company that is in business relationship with Carlsen, and his 'bad' analysis in post game interview. I'm not very impressed.
  - Bud 4y ago
    Yet earlier in this thread, you were incredulous about even the possibility that a chess game state could be entered into software or communicated during play. Which is clearly a ludicrously blind statement. So pardon us if it's hard to be particularly impressed by, well, whatever you are impressed or not impressed by. Because you don't seem to have much grasp on the basics involved, here.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
beardyw 4y ago
It is very easy indeed. Stockfish would be an immense help. Best moves are calculated progressively, that is they are refined over a few seconds. Inexperienced players are given away by delaying over obvious moves waiting for the best move. It is definitely not rocket science. You can download and run Stockfish yourself. I think chess.com possibly runs it in the browser.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  I know the basics how to do it, it is rather obvious. I just feel that operating two boards manually is really a chore, and definitely not while streaming.
  - Bud 4y ago
    Are you familiar with professional Starcraft II? Those guys are executing ten moves PER SECOND. While streaming. This is two to four orders of magnitude faster than chess players in a classical game. One to two orders of magnitude faster than blitz.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
      StarCraft players also aren't really thinking, all micro is mostly almost reflexes. Chess does require way more analysis, so if you are on a very short time limit, checking up with an engine and operating it would eat all your time.

perihelions 4y ago

Computer vision for chess is widely available (and very useful!) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19563768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19563768 ("Chessvision.ai – Analyze chess position from websites, images or video", 49 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21162466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21162466 ("Show HN: ChessBoss – enhancing physical chessboards with computer vision", 36 comments)

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
Things that are easy for some members of HN crowd are likely not that easy for a 19yo person who's only notable achievement in life so far is being really good at chess (well, presumably). Such software also doesn't explain his OTB results, which are consistent with his online results.
- HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
  Some OTB tournaments allow players to go to the bathroom with their phone, others allow audience in same room - so an accomplice (such as Hans' coach Maxim Dlugy - another admitted cheat) could relay moves via signal. I've seen suggestion on Hiraku's channel that current scanning for players for communication devices is sub-par, although Hans has offered to play naked to disprove that theory (some porno site is calling his bluff by offering him $1M to actually do it). Anal beads? I dunno ... Magnus has estimated it would usually only take one or two computer corrections per game for himself to play perfectly, so we're not talking about every move, just at key points. Apparently even just an indication that there is some key/winning move at a given point, without indicating what it is, is enough for the player to stop and put in the time to find it.
ccooffee 4y ago
Here's a story from Reddit about someone using these systems during over-the-board play to cheat: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/xigymh/oops_local_chess_club_is_run_by_an_extremely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/xigy...

fxtentacle 4y ago

Human assistant?

Version467 4y ago

I don't know how market leading chess cheating software works, but it's not that hard to imagine that it just captures the screen, or scrapes the moves in any number of ways automatically is it? I'm sure it's not needed to manually type in all the moves. As to how he'd cheat over the board, that's the big question. There are a couple of theories floating around, some more realistic than others, but if we knew for sure than this whole debacle would already be over.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
Anyway his over the board results are more or less consistent with his online results, so either he has invented some cheating method that had evaded detection for many years at top level events, or that he is really good on his own.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  I mean, probably the worst way to cheat is 'mindlessly'. If you're doing nothing more than 'transcribing' moves from one client to the other, sure. But if I'm cheating and trying to figure out maximum ROI, I'm looking at what the computer did for me, trying to understand it and figure it out. That way I can learn and get better myself, as well as talk/bluff intelligently about why "I" might have made a certain move.

bluecalm 4y ago

3+2 is a lot of time to input the moves several times over and prepare coffee in the meantime. Seriously, it's not a slightest problem for a competent online blitz player. OTB cheating: there are many possible ways. The simplest one being having a script reading the moves from the live broadcast and feeding them to an engine and then sending the info to the player. Hans' strength magically decreased in the Sinquefield cup once broadcast delay was introduced for example.

energyy 4y ago
> Hans' strength magically decreased in the Sinquefield cup once broadcast delay was introduced for example. This might be the solution. But then on-site audience would need to be monitored as well.
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
> Hans' strength magically decreased in the Sinquefield cup once broadcast delay was introduced for example. So you discount a possibility that the controversy and allegations against him had at least some effect in him playing worse in the Sinquefield Cup? Anyway, there were studies out there that there were no statistical differences in his rating gains in tournaments broadcasted with delays and without it. Study by Kenneth Regan also found no irregularities in his play, so the only 'evidence' of him using computer help are allegations by a company that is in business relationship with Carlsen, and his 'bad' analysis in post game interview. I'm not very impressed.
- Bud 4y ago
  Yet earlier in this thread, you were incredulous about even the possibility that a chess game state could be entered into software or communicated during play. Which is clearly a ludicrously blind statement. So pardon us if it's hard to be particularly impressed by, well, whatever you are impressed or not impressed by. Because you don't seem to have much grasp on the basics involved, here.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

beardyw 4y ago

It is very easy indeed. Stockfish would be an immense help. Best moves are calculated progressively, that is they are refined over a few seconds. Inexperienced players are given away by delaying over obvious moves waiting for the best move. It is definitely not rocket science. You can download and run Stockfish yourself. I think chess.com possibly runs it in the browser.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
I know the basics how to do it, it is rather obvious. I just feel that operating two boards manually is really a chore, and definitely not while streaming.
- Bud 4y ago
  Are you familiar with professional Starcraft II? Those guys are executing ten moves PER SECOND. While streaming. This is two to four orders of magnitude faster than chess players in a classical game. One to two orders of magnitude faster than blitz.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    StarCraft players also aren't really thinking, all micro is mostly almost reflexes. Chess does require way more analysis, so if you are on a very short time limit, checking up with an engine and operating it would eat all your time.