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There's a number of angles to this. Want a fancy job? This is one of the hoops to jump through. Same as leetcode further down the line, you won't do it at work

There's a number of angles to this. Want a fancy job? This is one of the hoops to jump through. Same as leetcode further down the line, you won't do it at work but you will do it to get work. But that's also a pretty tragic take on it. Practice for other things, sure, that is also a way to see it. You won't bench press the other team but you will make yourself stronger. But for what? A sport you'll never play? What are you preparing for? Here's another one. Math, especially pure math, is a thing that is totally separate from observation. It just sort of exists without being anywhere, and yet there's all this depth to it. You can get a puzzle that cannot be solved by any anything other than thoughts, and you can keep building on these puzzles that don't exist. Go nowhere and explore. Lastly I note that it's mostly math class that gets asked this "what's the point" question. But you may as well as this about everything else you do in school, and you will mostly find that you'll have spent years to learn French for 4 weeks of actual use in France, dissected frogs for no reason, and learned how to play the recorder. All things that I'm sure you can find positives for despite the superficial benefits being quite small.

allturtles 4y ago
> Lastly I note that it's mostly math class that gets asked this "what's the point" question. I think it tends to come up as a way of resisting something hard and unpleasant, and math tends to be the subject that most often feels hard and unpleasant to a plurality of young people. Of course most of us, if we had been freed from HS math as teenagers and left to our own devices, would not have gone off to do something really useful. We would have instead spent that time on something far more useless, like browsing HN. :-)
- eastbound 4y ago
  Also, we would be gullible to whatever new trend is invented by the people who do master those topics. I have interns upset because I don’t want to pay them in bitcoins or give them shares in the company, while we’re quietly churning 1m$ ARR with just two engineers and myself (and others are doing orders of magnitude better). The same interns getting tired after 3 lines of documentation and suggesting that every documentation page should be a video, generated by those american SAAS for a hefty price. They are basically illiterate trying to cover their lack of skills. The divide between those who use and those who get used is getting wider. And I don’t appreciate belonging to the first group, knowing how little my wisdom is.
- kcexn 4y ago
  I think math feels hard and unpleasant to most students because the way it is taught is often extremely outdated. In primary school for example, we learn maths by memorising times tables and solving thousands of basic arithmetic problems. This was important in a time before calculators as being able to compute functions is a skill that students might need. Today though, arithmetic should be taught, not because it might be useful, but because from arithmetic we can discover interesting properties about numbers themselves. I think maths would have been more interesting if you showed students how properties of pure numbers have this nice association with any set of real world objects that can be ordered.
  - hdctambien 4y ago
    Be careful, it sounds like you're describing Common Core Math and several states made that illegal
  - raegis 4y ago
    > In primary school for example, we learn maths by memorising times tables and solving thousands of basic arithmetic problems. This was important in a time before calculators... I used to think like you on this point, until I taught students who were brought up using calculators instead of memorizing multiplication tables, etc. It turns out that many of them could not figure out how to use calculators when needed--they didn't know what to enter because they were rarely required to do any mental math. It's really important for elementary school students to count out loud (including by 2's, 3's, etc.), and count backwards, and memorize multiplication tables, etc., so they are comfortable and confident doing basic arithmetic. Calculators are for people who already understand how to do arithmetic.
    - alfnor 4y ago
      Most calculators have poor UX either way, as they don't support RPN.
chinchilla2020 4y ago
There are also some counterpoints to it. I still cannot see a value in studying classical literature. At least not one that does not have 1000 better tradeoffs for other subjects. There are also aspects of studying that can 'nerdify' the brain and make you weaker at interpersonal skills. There are very few CEOs, influencers, actors, and musicians that are good at math. In fact, I think the artistic/athletic pathways in life can be damaged by beginning to condition someone for office work.
- JackFr 4y ago
  > I still cannot see a value in studying classical literature. And that is the real tragedy of modern education.
  - CodeSgt 4y ago
    You're welcome to explain why you disagree with the OP and what true value can, in your view, be derived from studying classical literature. I likely agree with you, but if you're just going to make a vaguely disparaging statement in the negative without elaborating or contributing to the discussion then you really might as well not comment at all.
    - JackFr 4y ago
      To answer both you and in passing GP: ——— My liege and madam, to expostulate What majesty should be, what duty is, Why day is day, night, night, and time is time — Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time. Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit, And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, I will be brief. Your noble son is mad.
      - TillE 4y ago
        I love how "brevity is the soul of wit" has become some wise aphorism, but of course in context of Polonius' rambling, it is a genuinely hilarious joke.
  - 4y ago
jrumbut 4y ago
I would say that you don't really master the most advanced topic you learn. Attempting algebra is how you solify your knowledge of arithmetic, attempting calculus is how you learn algebra and finally master arithmetic.
ergocoder 4y ago
> But you may as well as this about everything else you do in school And we should constantly question that... > Same as leetcode further down the line Leetcode is free and has proven sufficiently enough to get us a 6-figure job. > All things that I'm sure you can find positives for despite the superficial benefits being quite small. Except that the cost of going to school is expensive. Even if schools are free for you, it is paid by tax money. We should always aspire to teach useful subjects with decent ROIS in schools.

allturtles 4y ago

> Lastly I note that it's mostly math class that gets asked this "what's the point" question. I think it tends to come up as a way of resisting something hard and unpleasant, and math tends to be the subject that most often feels hard and unpleasant to a plurality of young people. Of course most of us, if we had been freed from HS math as teenagers and left to our own devices, would not have gone off to do something really useful. We would have instead spent that time on something far more useless, like browsing HN. :-)

eastbound 4y ago
Also, we would be gullible to whatever new trend is invented by the people who do master those topics. I have interns upset because I don’t want to pay them in bitcoins or give them shares in the company, while we’re quietly churning 1m$ ARR with just two engineers and myself (and others are doing orders of magnitude better). The same interns getting tired after 3 lines of documentation and suggesting that every documentation page should be a video, generated by those american SAAS for a hefty price. They are basically illiterate trying to cover their lack of skills. The divide between those who use and those who get used is getting wider. And I don’t appreciate belonging to the first group, knowing how little my wisdom is.
kcexn 4y ago
I think math feels hard and unpleasant to most students because the way it is taught is often extremely outdated. In primary school for example, we learn maths by memorising times tables and solving thousands of basic arithmetic problems. This was important in a time before calculators as being able to compute functions is a skill that students might need. Today though, arithmetic should be taught, not because it might be useful, but because from arithmetic we can discover interesting properties about numbers themselves. I think maths would have been more interesting if you showed students how properties of pure numbers have this nice association with any set of real world objects that can be ordered.
- hdctambien 4y ago
  Be careful, it sounds like you're describing Common Core Math and several states made that illegal
- raegis 4y ago
  > In primary school for example, we learn maths by memorising times tables and solving thousands of basic arithmetic problems. This was important in a time before calculators... I used to think like you on this point, until I taught students who were brought up using calculators instead of memorizing multiplication tables, etc. It turns out that many of them could not figure out how to use calculators when needed--they didn't know what to enter because they were rarely required to do any mental math. It's really important for elementary school students to count out loud (including by 2's, 3's, etc.), and count backwards, and memorize multiplication tables, etc., so they are comfortable and confident doing basic arithmetic. Calculators are for people who already understand how to do arithmetic.
  - alfnor 4y ago
    Most calculators have poor UX either way, as they don't support RPN.

chinchilla2020 4y ago

There are also some counterpoints to it. I still cannot see a value in studying classical literature. At least not one that does not have 1000 better tradeoffs for other subjects. There are also aspects of studying that can 'nerdify' the brain and make you weaker at interpersonal skills. There are very few CEOs, influencers, actors, and musicians that are good at math. In fact, I think the artistic/athletic pathways in life can be damaged by beginning to condition someone for office work.

JackFr 4y ago
> I still cannot see a value in studying classical literature. And that is the real tragedy of modern education.
- CodeSgt 4y ago
  You're welcome to explain why you disagree with the OP and what true value can, in your view, be derived from studying classical literature. I likely agree with you, but if you're just going to make a vaguely disparaging statement in the negative without elaborating or contributing to the discussion then you really might as well not comment at all.
  - JackFr 4y ago
    To answer both you and in passing GP: ——— My liege and madam, to expostulate What majesty should be, what duty is, Why day is day, night, night, and time is time — Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time. Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit, And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, I will be brief. Your noble son is mad.
    - TillE 4y ago
      I love how "brevity is the soul of wit" has become some wise aphorism, but of course in context of Polonius' rambling, it is a genuinely hilarious joke.
- 4y ago

jrumbut 4y ago

I would say that you don't really master the most advanced topic you learn. Attempting algebra is how you solify your knowledge of arithmetic, attempting calculus is how you learn algebra and finally master arithmetic.

ergocoder 4y ago

> But you may as well as this about everything else you do in school And we should constantly question that... > Same as leetcode further down the line Leetcode is free and has proven sufficiently enough to get us a 6-figure job. > All things that I'm sure you can find positives for despite the superficial benefits being quite small. Except that the cost of going to school is expensive. Even if schools are free for you, it is paid by tax money. We should always aspire to teach useful subjects with decent ROIS in schools.