4 ms·

I think there was a comment on HN once to the effect of "Imagine you had 2 candidates, same work experience, both at a fairly prestigious company, one with a de

I think there was a comment on HN once to the effect of "Imagine you had 2 candidates, same work experience, both at a fairly prestigious company, one with a degree, one without, which do you hire? Personally, I think the fact that the non-degree holding one is more likely to be the better hire, just because of how much harder they had to work to get into that position". Not saying that not having a degree is somehow a more-positive indicator, just that I agree with your sentiment that it's hardly a requirement, and that it's just one signal among many. FWIW, I have an inclination to believe the reason why node+express+react stacks are so popular among startups (at least in the NY scene) is because all the full stack bootcamps use that stack, so it makes it easier to hire. I also decided to use a similar stack that only used JS for the same reason. I feel as though some aspects of "software development" are closer to to a trade skill. Certainly there are far more complicated directions, and that's where degrees and advanced education are meaningful, but if you just need a simple CRUD app you probably don't need a masters in anything.

yrgulation 4y ago
A lot of software development is just bricklaying. Issue tho is that reading on a forum about a design pattern or good practice doesnt make you a good engineer. Neither does a pdf certificate issued by a “bootcamp”. Thats why the webdev world has ended up with tons of poorly designed libraries and frameworks and each day there’s a new library coming out. Folks have no clue what they are doing, they just follow trends.
- diob 4y ago
  I think it's more due to Sturgeon's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law). It's not unique to any one thing / field / area.
- entropicdrifter 4y ago
  >Folks have no clue what they are doing, they just follow trends. And you think that a degree helps with that? I've had coworkers with MS in comp-sci who had no idea how to implement stuff in a practical, efficient manner, and other coworkers with no degree who were able to grasp the best practices from the get-go. I don't think the degrees are the problem. The problem is that the demand for software engineers has wildly outpaced our society's ability to produce quality ones, regardless of their educational path. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority (80%) of professional software developers already have a bachelor's degree or higher: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021/#education-ed-level-prof https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021/#education-ed...
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    Not having a degree doesnt mean you cant be great or better than someone with a degree. A lot of trades have people that simply have a “feel” of how things work. Its a bit like car mechanics vs mechanical engineers. No matter how good a mechanic is they will rarely be good enough to actually understand why things are the way they are. A mechanic can fix any part of the car but the engineer will build that critical thing that makes the car possible. Similarly with software engineering. Memorising good practice and following it is not difficult. Understanding why it is good practice and why it can be challenged is. A lot of the self taught folks stare at you like a brick the moment you step out of their knowledge area. I dont want to sound patronising. I also met plenty of great developers without a degree, some even high school drop outs. But they rarely understood whats beneath the bonnet. They were absolutely able to deliver work and architect systems but it was always obvious that knowledge was based on what some popular dude wrote on a blog instead of actual knowledge. The survey you posted doesnt show a breakdown per language. Again, nothing wrong with not having a degree but saying that having a degree is a negative thing is just silly.
    - entropicdrifter 4y ago
      You're entitled to your opinion and I'm happy to respect it, but: >saying that having a degree is a negative thing is just silly. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said having a degree was a negative. I made an example of why I don't think it's relevant in the first place
ravenstine 4y ago
Both could have worked just as hard, but a college education means a lot less than it did in the past, and even can come with negative connotations. In terms of computer "science", I would consider a degree mostly irrelevant to whether someone is qualified, though for junior developers I would have to consider the amount of unlearning that will need to be done in contrast to self-taught developers who didn't experience 2-4 years of indoctrination.
Melatonic 4y ago
Not sure I agree with that. The non degree holder could be better definitely at certain specific parts of software engineering (mainly because they potentially had 4 more years and more time to dedicate to learning it) but the person with a bachelors degree will likely have had a more robust social network and broader general knowledge. In my opinion graduate degrees are when the utility drops off a cliff (except of course when you absolutely NEED that specific graduate knowledge - then it is essential). There is a ton you get with the added bachelors degree that is not at all related to your field and a network of friends in unrelated fields to your own also broadens your knowledge significantly. Software Engineers do not work in a vacuum just coding all day - they need to of course also be excellent general communicators and collaborators and there is real value in being able to translate high level technical concepts into language that less technical people can understand. That being said the gatekeeping of jobs to only people with degrees (especially considering how expensive it is in the modern world) is absolutely a problem. But I think that is more down to the cost of education (in an ideal world higher education would be free just as high school is). My bachelors degree is not at all related to the field I work in now but it gives me a huge leg up compared to pre college me.
revlolz 4y ago
>Imagine you had 2 candidates, same work experience, both at a fairly prestigious company, one with a degree, one without, which do you hire? Personally, I think the fact that the non-degree holding one is more likely to be the better hire, just because of how much harder they had to work to get into that position. I think the flaw here is in the question framing. It implies from the get-go there is a definitive qualitative difference between having CS degree and not AND that it is the determinate factor of quality or risk mitigation when the reality is both of these candidate are going to have behavioral differences you discover conducting proper interviews.
lowercased 4y ago
It seemed reversed to me - I was noticing more bootcamps and courses and tutorials for that node/express/react before seeing the degree of uptake we see today. Not saying it wasn't used before, but it might not be as much cause-effect as you're inclining.
trinovantes 4y ago
However people are still people and I'd bet most people would still hire the degree holder to protect themselves. If the degree-holder was a dud, they can at least say they did "due diligence". It's like the old saying "nobody gets fired for buying IBM".

yrgulation 4y ago

A lot of software development is just bricklaying. Issue tho is that reading on a forum about a design pattern or good practice doesnt make you a good engineer. Neither does a pdf certificate issued by a “bootcamp”. Thats why the webdev world has ended up with tons of poorly designed libraries and frameworks and each day there’s a new library coming out. Folks have no clue what they are doing, they just follow trends.

diob 4y ago
I think it's more due to Sturgeon's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law). It's not unique to any one thing / field / area.
entropicdrifter 4y ago
>Folks have no clue what they are doing, they just follow trends. And you think that a degree helps with that? I've had coworkers with MS in comp-sci who had no idea how to implement stuff in a practical, efficient manner, and other coworkers with no degree who were able to grasp the best practices from the get-go. I don't think the degrees are the problem. The problem is that the demand for software engineers has wildly outpaced our society's ability to produce quality ones, regardless of their educational path. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority (80%) of professional software developers already have a bachelor's degree or higher: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021/#education-ed-level-prof https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021/#education-ed...
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Not having a degree doesnt mean you cant be great or better than someone with a degree. A lot of trades have people that simply have a “feel” of how things work. Its a bit like car mechanics vs mechanical engineers. No matter how good a mechanic is they will rarely be good enough to actually understand why things are the way they are. A mechanic can fix any part of the car but the engineer will build that critical thing that makes the car possible. Similarly with software engineering. Memorising good practice and following it is not difficult. Understanding why it is good practice and why it can be challenged is. A lot of the self taught folks stare at you like a brick the moment you step out of their knowledge area. I dont want to sound patronising. I also met plenty of great developers without a degree, some even high school drop outs. But they rarely understood whats beneath the bonnet. They were absolutely able to deliver work and architect systems but it was always obvious that knowledge was based on what some popular dude wrote on a blog instead of actual knowledge. The survey you posted doesnt show a breakdown per language. Again, nothing wrong with not having a degree but saying that having a degree is a negative thing is just silly.
  - entropicdrifter 4y ago
    You're entitled to your opinion and I'm happy to respect it, but: >saying that having a degree is a negative thing is just silly. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said having a degree was a negative. I made an example of why I don't think it's relevant in the first place

ravenstine 4y ago

Both could have worked just as hard, but a college education means a lot less than it did in the past, and even can come with negative connotations. In terms of computer "science", I would consider a degree mostly irrelevant to whether someone is qualified, though for junior developers I would have to consider the amount of unlearning that will need to be done in contrast to self-taught developers who didn't experience 2-4 years of indoctrination.

Melatonic 4y ago

Not sure I agree with that. The non degree holder could be better definitely at certain specific parts of software engineering (mainly because they potentially had 4 more years and more time to dedicate to learning it) but the person with a bachelors degree will likely have had a more robust social network and broader general knowledge. In my opinion graduate degrees are when the utility drops off a cliff (except of course when you absolutely NEED that specific graduate knowledge - then it is essential). There is a ton you get with the added bachelors degree that is not at all related to your field and a network of friends in unrelated fields to your own also broadens your knowledge significantly. Software Engineers do not work in a vacuum just coding all day - they need to of course also be excellent general communicators and collaborators and there is real value in being able to translate high level technical concepts into language that less technical people can understand. That being said the gatekeeping of jobs to only people with degrees (especially considering how expensive it is in the modern world) is absolutely a problem. But I think that is more down to the cost of education (in an ideal world higher education would be free just as high school is). My bachelors degree is not at all related to the field I work in now but it gives me a huge leg up compared to pre college me.

revlolz 4y ago

>Imagine you had 2 candidates, same work experience, both at a fairly prestigious company, one with a degree, one without, which do you hire? Personally, I think the fact that the non-degree holding one is more likely to be the better hire, just because of how much harder they had to work to get into that position. I think the flaw here is in the question framing. It implies from the get-go there is a definitive qualitative difference between having CS degree and not AND that it is the determinate factor of quality or risk mitigation when the reality is both of these candidate are going to have behavioral differences you discover conducting proper interviews.

lowercased 4y ago

It seemed reversed to me - I was noticing more bootcamps and courses and tutorials for that node/express/react before seeing the degree of uptake we see today. Not saying it wasn't used before, but it might not be as much cause-effect as you're inclining.

trinovantes 4y ago

However people are still people and I'd bet most people would still hire the degree holder to protect themselves. If the degree-holder was a dud, they can at least say they did "due diligence". It's like the old saying "nobody gets fired for buying IBM".