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After reading the article, I still don't understand the exception Apple purportedly gets from its tracking rules. As I understand it, Amazon is allowed to use a

by _23sd 4y ago

After reading the article, I still don't understand the exception Apple purportedly gets from its tracking rules. As I understand it, Amazon is allowed to use activity in the Kindle app to show personalized ads in the Amazon Shopping app without using the ATT prompt. Isn't that the same thing as Apple using News app activity to personalize ads in the App Store? The part that is unfair is that no one but Apple gets to have an App Store or process IAPs, which has always been the problem with iOS. Trying to make it about ATT just seems like a red herring.

jchonphoenix 4y ago
Apple has access to all data it blocks from other ad networks by virtue of you owning an iPhone. It uses this data in its DSP. One effect of Apple locking down privacy was to create a unique monopoly on data for itself and its an advantage it intends to capitalize on.
- jshier 4y ago
  It could have access, but so far all of these articles calling Apple out haven't cited a single shred of evidence that Apple has replaced the previous invasive fingerprinting by third parties with their own. If nothing else, the quality of the ads you see from Apple would indicate they gather less, not more, than most advertisers. I mean, I see ads for Apple products I already own, or services I already subscribe to.
  - htrp 4y ago
    That just says apple hasn't hired the ad guys from facebook/google .... yet
    - s3p 4y ago
      > Apple also uploads a lot of logs, etc from their devices to their servers, and opting out of apple level tracking at some basic level is often just not an option. Ex, they upload battery behavior info and use it to improve the battery perf of their devices, or upload people's locations and other location adjacent data like wifi networks with location services and so on. This nothing to do with advertising.
    - coriny 4y ago
      From over a year ago: https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/10/apple-hires-former-facebook-advertising-exec-to-bolster-its-own-ads-platform/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/10/apple-hires-former-facebook-a...
  - novok 4y ago
    Apple doesn't need invasive statistical fingerprinting, they already have your unique ID, unchangeable device serial numbers and apple ID account. An iOS device cannot install any app without an apple ID, and nowadays you need a phone number to create an apple ID which is pretty much the supercookie identifier in most of the world. You can see a lot of the tracking and correlating that apple does within their own legal documents, which I commend them for at least writing them out clearly : https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/apple-advertising/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/apple-advertisin... Apple also uploads a lot of logs, etc from their devices to their servers, and opting out of apple level tracking at some basic level is often just not an option. Ex, they upload battery behavior info and use it to improve the battery perf of their devices, or upload people's locations and other location adjacent data like wifi networks with location services and so on. Apple cares about privacy from third parties, not privacy from apple itself. Which is very apple of apple. Apple also does not let you turn it off in some key parts. And they know they work with security services & authoritarian governments that force them to hand over any data that they have access to, in secret, which gets thousands of innocent people killed, tortured and jailed every day at their scale. Yet they still collect it. Key parts of apple doesn't really like the existence of third parties in many ways, and if they could, they would rather have full locked down control, from what I can observe from external actions over the decades. Any large group of people will of course have different actions and motives, and I do commend part of the company for caring, and funding efforts like lockdown mode and keeping %95 of the company thinking and caring about privacy at some level. But that key %5 that does not basically ruins it for many. The best we can hope for is to slowly change that last %5, although with this Services & Ads push, I feel like that bad part is only going to grow worse.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mr_toad 4y ago
  What people care about is whether they track which websites you visit and the contents of your email. And then selling it to anyone and their dog.
Spooky23 4y ago
It’s Apple, so any critique draws attention. Long game, a successful Apple ad business creates bad incentives and is likely bad for customers. As evidenced by the AppStore really being a front door for the worst kind of skinner-box gaming, Apple will choose cash over any overriding principle.
tehlike 4y ago
Apple is blocking conversion tracking for third parties. Think of this: 1.Fb shows an ad for angry birds 2. user installs the app 3. user opens the app and makes a ping to fb to tell user with idfa xyz opened the app. The problem is not that only apple gets (2), but it is that because it gets (2), it thinks it should be able to dictate how (3) happens. Since apple is the only one doing (2), it puts everyone else at a disadvantage. And since apple doesn't have web ads business, it sees no problem killing that altogether through att as well.
- gardenhedge 4y ago
  Couldn't 3 just be done on the backend? User opens app, ping to app's own service which pings FB. Then apple can't block it
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    How do you get the same ID from 1 to use in step 3? (You don't.)
    - closeparen 4y ago
      Just curious: I know developers can have deep links preserved through the app store installation process, so that e.g. after you install the app it takes you to the article you were reading in Safari. What stops you from putting an identifier in there?
      - johnthewise 4y ago
        Apple. If you try to get around the restrictions, you may get banned, which means the end of your mobile business, so you don't risk it.
      - tehlike 4y ago
        There are possible technical work arounds to technical restrictions. There are policy restrictions that you won't be able to get around which is what att is.
jahabrewer 4y ago
> ... I still don't understand the exception Apple purportedly gets from its tracking rules. As Ben Thompson has been shouting, it's because Apple has a very convenient definition of "tracking".

by _23sd 4y ago

jchonphoenix 4y ago

Apple has access to all data it blocks from other ad networks by virtue of you owning an iPhone. It uses this data in its DSP. One effect of Apple locking down privacy was to create a unique monopoly on data for itself and its an advantage it intends to capitalize on.

jshier 4y ago
It could have access, but so far all of these articles calling Apple out haven't cited a single shred of evidence that Apple has replaced the previous invasive fingerprinting by third parties with their own. If nothing else, the quality of the ads you see from Apple would indicate they gather less, not more, than most advertisers. I mean, I see ads for Apple products I already own, or services I already subscribe to.
- htrp 4y ago
  That just says apple hasn't hired the ad guys from facebook/google .... yet
  - s3p 4y ago
    > Apple also uploads a lot of logs, etc from their devices to their servers, and opting out of apple level tracking at some basic level is often just not an option. Ex, they upload battery behavior info and use it to improve the battery perf of their devices, or upload people's locations and other location adjacent data like wifi networks with location services and so on. This nothing to do with advertising.
  - coriny 4y ago
    From over a year ago: https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/10/apple-hires-former-facebook-advertising-exec-to-bolster-its-own-ads-platform/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/10/apple-hires-former-facebook-a...
- novok 4y ago
  Apple doesn't need invasive statistical fingerprinting, they already have your unique ID, unchangeable device serial numbers and apple ID account. An iOS device cannot install any app without an apple ID, and nowadays you need a phone number to create an apple ID which is pretty much the supercookie identifier in most of the world. You can see a lot of the tracking and correlating that apple does within their own legal documents, which I commend them for at least writing them out clearly : https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/apple-advertising/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/apple-advertisin... Apple also uploads a lot of logs, etc from their devices to their servers, and opting out of apple level tracking at some basic level is often just not an option. Ex, they upload battery behavior info and use it to improve the battery perf of their devices, or upload people's locations and other location adjacent data like wifi networks with location services and so on. Apple cares about privacy from third parties, not privacy from apple itself. Which is very apple of apple. Apple also does not let you turn it off in some key parts. And they know they work with security services & authoritarian governments that force them to hand over any data that they have access to, in secret, which gets thousands of innocent people killed, tortured and jailed every day at their scale. Yet they still collect it. Key parts of apple doesn't really like the existence of third parties in many ways, and if they could, they would rather have full locked down control, from what I can observe from external actions over the decades. Any large group of people will of course have different actions and motives, and I do commend part of the company for caring, and funding efforts like lockdown mode and keeping %95 of the company thinking and caring about privacy at some level. But that key %5 that does not basically ruins it for many. The best we can hope for is to slowly change that last %5, although with this Services & Ads push, I feel like that bad part is only going to grow worse.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mr_toad 4y ago
What people care about is whether they track which websites you visit and the contents of your email. And then selling it to anyone and their dog.

Spooky23 4y ago

It’s Apple, so any critique draws attention. Long game, a successful Apple ad business creates bad incentives and is likely bad for customers. As evidenced by the AppStore really being a front door for the worst kind of skinner-box gaming, Apple will choose cash over any overriding principle.

tehlike 4y ago

Apple is blocking conversion tracking for third parties. Think of this: 1.Fb shows an ad for angry birds 2. user installs the app 3. user opens the app and makes a ping to fb to tell user with idfa xyz opened the app. The problem is not that only apple gets (2), but it is that because it gets (2), it thinks it should be able to dictate how (3) happens. Since apple is the only one doing (2), it puts everyone else at a disadvantage. And since apple doesn't have web ads business, it sees no problem killing that altogether through att as well.

gardenhedge 4y ago
Couldn't 3 just be done on the backend? User opens app, ping to app's own service which pings FB. Then apple can't block it
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  How do you get the same ID from 1 to use in step 3? (You don't.)
  - closeparen 4y ago
    Just curious: I know developers can have deep links preserved through the app store installation process, so that e.g. after you install the app it takes you to the article you were reading in Safari. What stops you from putting an identifier in there?
    - johnthewise 4y ago
      Apple. If you try to get around the restrictions, you may get banned, which means the end of your mobile business, so you don't risk it.
    - tehlike 4y ago
      There are possible technical work arounds to technical restrictions. There are policy restrictions that you won't be able to get around which is what att is.

jahabrewer 4y ago

> ... I still don't understand the exception Apple purportedly gets from its tracking rules. As Ben Thompson has been shouting, it's because Apple has a very convenient definition of "tracking".