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We have laws for separation of church and state, they should be applied to this as any other. This is a religion. It's the same as any religious group trying t

by memish 4y ago

We have laws for separation of church and state, they should be applied to this as any other. This is a religion. It's the same as any religious group trying to impose their morality and beliefs on everyone else. To be a good person use the correct words and correct ideas as defined by us, the good people. If you disagree you are a bad person. Sinful, evil. How can you disagree with the Holy Words, Diversity, Inclusion and Equity? You're either with us or against us. Sign here on the dotted line to confirm membership. http://paulgraham.com/heresy.html http://paulgraham.com/heresy.html

ethbr0 4y ago
Private academic institutions (in the US-sense / not-government-funded) have no blanket obligation to separate from church, because they aren't the state.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Private academic institutions I assume at least some of this research is funded with public grants. That might be from where pressure can be exerted.
- origin_path 4y ago
  I wonder how private universities really are, given the reliance on government backed loan structures and NSF grants.
pessimizer 4y ago
> We have laws for separation of church and state, they should be applied to this as any other. This is a religion. I'd say this about any sort of psychological theories that get intertwined into the justifications of power structures. The government should not be speculating about or creating rules about people's inner states. A government trying to change the minds of the population undermines democracy. An administration, fine, but not the government itself, with regulations paid for with tax money. People should change governments. Governments shouldn't change people.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
Like most religious analogies in this area, I completely agree with it as a framework but don't really follow the conclusions. If it's a religion, surely part of living in a secular society is allowing people to practice it freely, even if that means that some conferences (or professors, or schools) adopt explicit creeds. I do worry, because I think this particular religion is factually wrong in ways that matter a lot, but the idea that academics should never let their core beliefs impact their work isn't really realistic.
- fareesh 4y ago
  > the idea that academics should never let their core beliefs impact their work isn't really realistic. I wanted to explore this a bit. Let's hypothesize that the academic is in some ISIL dominated region and the caliphate says that all research must further the goals of caliphate expansion and the spread of the religion. If an academic were to write an equivalent statement - is it their core belief, or are they simply saying the Emperor's clothes are beautiful? Given the ideal role of academia in society, isn't the latter possibility quite harmful?
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
    As Haidt says, it's harmful to the extent that it contradicts the core telos of academic research, but I don't think it's so harmful that research becomes impossible. Quite a lot of foundational scientific work comes from medieval Christian and Muslim sources whose religious authorities executed people for heresy.
    - fareesh 4y ago
      In terms of some outcomes, yes, the research can continue unhindered if they say "Hallowed are the Ori". Personally I feel like it makes for a very poor work environment, so I sympathize with many who are put in that position. I would prefer it if they did not feel constrained by this type of environment, so that their best work would emerge.
- shellami 4y ago

by memish 4y ago

ethbr0 4y ago

Private academic institutions (in the US-sense / not-government-funded) have no blanket obligation to separate from church, because they aren't the state.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Private academic institutions I assume at least some of this research is funded with public grants. That might be from where pressure can be exerted.
origin_path 4y ago
I wonder how private universities really are, given the reliance on government backed loan structures and NSF grants.

pessimizer 4y ago

> We have laws for separation of church and state, they should be applied to this as any other. This is a religion. I'd say this about any sort of psychological theories that get intertwined into the justifications of power structures. The government should not be speculating about or creating rules about people's inner states. A government trying to change the minds of the population undermines democracy. An administration, fine, but not the government itself, with regulations paid for with tax money. People should change governments. Governments shouldn't change people.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago

Like most religious analogies in this area, I completely agree with it as a framework but don't really follow the conclusions. If it's a religion, surely part of living in a secular society is allowing people to practice it freely, even if that means that some conferences (or professors, or schools) adopt explicit creeds. I do worry, because I think this particular religion is factually wrong in ways that matter a lot, but the idea that academics should never let their core beliefs impact their work isn't really realistic.

fareesh 4y ago
> the idea that academics should never let their core beliefs impact their work isn't really realistic. I wanted to explore this a bit. Let's hypothesize that the academic is in some ISIL dominated region and the caliphate says that all research must further the goals of caliphate expansion and the spread of the religion. If an academic were to write an equivalent statement - is it their core belief, or are they simply saying the Emperor's clothes are beautiful? Given the ideal role of academia in society, isn't the latter possibility quite harmful?
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  As Haidt says, it's harmful to the extent that it contradicts the core telos of academic research, but I don't think it's so harmful that research becomes impossible. Quite a lot of foundational scientific work comes from medieval Christian and Muslim sources whose religious authorities executed people for heresy.
  - fareesh 4y ago
    In terms of some outcomes, yes, the research can continue unhindered if they say "Hallowed are the Ori". Personally I feel like it makes for a very poor work environment, so I sympathize with many who are put in that position. I would prefer it if they did not feel constrained by this type of environment, so that their best work would emerge.
shellami 4y ago