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I read through the linked email thread discussing the need for a C++ AST in emacs, and I have to say I was stunned by the arrogance, rudeness, and completely ig

I read through the linked email thread discussing the need for a C++ AST in emacs, and I have to say I was stunned by the arrogance, rudeness, and completely ignorance of RMS. When faced with clear, specific evidence that he was out of his depth and confused, he doubled down and literally said he would no longer discuss the issue because the other parties were "trying to pressure him instead of convince him". This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult. Most engineering managers or architects in most jobs would be reprimanded or fired for behaving that way. I would never consider interacting with GNU in a professional capacity after reading those emails, so I agree with the conclusion that RMS should step down.

layer8 4y ago
It’s also a perplexing display of ignorance for a compiler writer, as clearly and obviously static analysis typically requires the whole AST, and there’s almost no limit to the static analyses that are useful to have in a code editor.
mhh__ 4y ago
Stallman is probably a good example of how people practice based on principles end up like how you describe when the principles drive them away from the real practice of their users (or just reality in general). "skin in the game" as taleb would say, only a little bit more subtle.
assttoasstmgr 4y ago
> I was stunned by the arrogance, rudeness, and completely ignorance of RMS Why were you stunned? The guy signs his emails "Dr. Richard Stallman" whilst only having an honorary doctorate. Clearly there are issues. It's as insane as signing emails "Dr. Bill Gates", "Dr. Clint Eastwood" and "Dr. Billy Joel" (all having honorary degrees).
- LukeShu 4y ago
  Without saying I agree with him on this, here's his defense of it: https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    It just shows how out of touch he is. Almost everyone I've worked with in my career has had a PhD. Not one of them have ever included "Dr" in their titles on emails or anywhere else. I've even worked with a few MD/PhDs who transitioned to software engineering, and they did not include "Dr" in their capacities as software engineers.
    - spullara 4y ago
      It is now being included by folks that historically didn't get many doctorates and it is considered ok.
    - irrational 4y ago
      I have a brother in law who has an PhD in economics who signs everything Dr and refers to himself as doctor. We don’t get along.
      - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
        He missed his calling as maestro.
      - worik 4y ago
        > who signs everything Dr As he should. He earned it
    - layer8 4y ago
      It used to be more common, and is still quite common in Europe, I believe.
      - progre 4y ago
        It's common in Germany. It's concidered pompous asshattery everywhere else.
        LtWorf 4y ago
- Zababa 4y ago
  I don't really see the issue here. Is this a cultural thing ?
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  I have problems with some of RMS's opinions and behavior, but I have no problem with him calling himself "Dr." One of my professors used to talk about the difference between a Masters degree and a PhD: "To get a Masters degree you have to learn something. To get a PhD the world has to learn something." The world has learned a great deal from RMS. Regardless of what one thinks of him as a person, he's probably been more influential on how the world thinks about software than the vast majority of PhDs.
  - assttoasstmgr 4y ago
    The world has also learned a great deal from Tom Silva on This Old House, does that set the precedent to be called "Dr. of Carpentry"?
    - joecool1029 4y ago
      If institutions that award normal doctorates in carpentry decided he contributed enough to the field to be conferred a doctorate.... absolutely?
    - alex_sf 4y ago
      Unironically, I'd be fine with that.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Dr. Demento introduced Weird Al Yankovic to the world.
      - Eleison23 4y ago
        The Beastie Boys issued millions of "License to Ill" but they never specified an expiration date.
  - qutierust 4y ago
  - kelnos 4y ago
- mlambie 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
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- fellellor 4y ago
  It is a rude digression to discuss RMS’s personal character flaws and mental instability. The FSF more importantly is a force for good and always has been. And we need them to try to be more relevant and effective in the coming age of completely locked, learning capable and vastly more influential proprietary software.
- rvieira 4y ago
  An honorary degree is not meaningless. It is an official degree typically bestowed by a bona fide institution (that also has non-honorary degrees). It is also given to individuals that had a deep impact in some area, arguably a much deeper impact than any freshly graduated PhD student has. So it doesn't bother me if any of them signs Dr. Bill Gates, Dr. Billy Joel or Dr. Clint Eastwood as they, in all likelihood, are important in their fields, much more than I was when I submitted my thesis.
- deleted 4y ago
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- pvaldes 4y ago
  If somebody is a doctor honoris causa, has been seen as deserving to be doctor by the only group of people that can legally grant this titles. Anybody with a doctorate can decide to use the title, use it only in an ironic way, or just don't use it, as you wish. "Dr. Clint Eastwood" would not be a symptom of anything strange. Eastwood is clearly an expert in films, successful at both sides of the camera, so... why not recognize it?
void-star 4y ago
Good luck not interacting with GNU professionally in this day and age. Snark aside, I’d be interested in how that turns out.
- deleted 4y ago
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- mgraczyk 4y ago
  I mean the "GNU Project", not the software.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    GNU/Linux is part of the GNU Project. It wouldn't have gotten far without using the GPL license and having all the people from GNU working on it.
- wmf 4y ago
  Fortunately most GNU software is fine. Emacs and GCC are exceptions because they're RMS's babies and he micromanages them.
HyperSane 4y ago
"This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult" It is pretty normal behavior for RMS. And his fundamental reason for limiting access to the AST makes no sense.
- smitty1e 4y ago
  > And his fundamental reason for limiting access to the AST makes no sense. It makes sense in the context cited in TFA. RMS would rather go down in flames than risk having third parties "abuse" GCC. Substantive evidence that the situation has changed since the founding of GNU is moot. RMS's binary view is arguably unfortunate, but there it is. He's painted into a corner by ideology. He can't get any more flexible than he already has.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    I guess it makes sense to RMS, but his brain is a very strange place.
    - smitty1e 4y ago
      People: can't live with them; can't live with 'em.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    As others have explained in the mailing list, the technical ability to dump the AST in a way that circumvents the GPL already exists via GCC plugins. So, no, it doesn't make sense even from that perspective.
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spullara 4y ago
You should expect nothing more than this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
oska 4y ago
I'm yet to see RMS out of his depth in any technical discussion of computer science related matters and I think it's a very big call for anyone to make without backing the assertion up (as you very noticeably failed to do). RMS has a towering reputation in the computer science field based on very significant accomplisments, that is undeniable. Any random person on a forum is welcome to challenge that reputation, but they'll need to do it properly, not just sling mud.
- mgraczyk 4y ago
  Read the linked email thread and decide for yourself. He doesn't know operator overloading exists. Then when he's told and given an example he claims it doesn't interact with type deduction in a way that is not true in C++. Then when given a simple example with auto he claims that the method overload resolution is equivalent to finding the right return type, ignoring multiple overloads and the possibility of type conversion after the function returns. All these mistakes are acceptable, but when they were pointed out to him, he reacted by claiming blanket bad faith on everyone who was trying to justify using the full AST. He then said he wouldn't listen to them and instead would talk to "people he trusts".
  - stingraycharles 4y ago
    His approach to implementing this feature would have been “if code completion needs data X from the code, we provide an API for that”, and repeat this for all other possible use cases. This, to protect the AST. This is of course technically feasible, but a huge amount of effort, and will constantly have to be updated / changed. When people are effectively arguing “it’s a much more forward-compatible and scalable approach to let tools use the AST directly”, he rejects that as changing the discussion, not a concrete example, and/or pressuring. This is super ironic coming from someone who made an editor entirely based on LISP, which is successful precisely because it is completely transparent and anything can be changed / inspected / done. Given the success of LSP in the recent years, it’s super evident that RMS was wrong on this matter. It has created an ecosystem for LSP around clang, and the integration with emacs is great.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
The part where he just shuts down discussion based on his authority was pretty shocking to me. I remember other instances where he did that and if I'm not mistaken it led to people forking GCC.
- discardable_dan 4y ago
  Arguably, that exact behavior led to Clang existing.
kentrado 4y ago
But it is precisely not a job!! If you don't like his way of management, you are welcome to fork the project.
- mgraczyk 4y ago
  Or, if a community doesn't like it's leader the community should pick a new one (or find a better form of governance)
  - oska 4y ago
    No surprise that the etherium developer (yes, I've looked at yr linked bio) throws in the 'governance' canard, i.e. control software projects through power games, rather than by free association (support a project or fork it). Free Software is not about governance; it's pretty much a complete antithesis to such power structures. Communities voluntarily coalesce around software projects with a core developer group. Don't like the group, fork the code; don't attempt a takeover/coup and if you do, or agitate for one, then you've revealed your true colours and that community will now see you as a hostile threat to their project.
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      I work on camera algorithms full time and do Ethereum stuff in my free time, not sure that's relevant though. Like it or not, FSF has governance and power structures. The GNU project power structure is very top heavy, effectively a dictatorship. I believe dictatorships are bad so I'll continue advocating for GNU to change. Interestingly the approach to cooperation you're describing (if you don't like it, fork it) is actually the same as OG crypto Bitcoin people. IMO it's not conducive to good outcomes and most of the crypto world has embraced processes that lead to consensus building and more inclusivity (although clearly not perfect yet).
      - forty 4y ago
        > dictatorships are bad I think you should be more a bit subtle in your analysis and weight the pros and cons. Especially in the context of software projects where nobody gets killed or detained :) Not saying that dictatorship is the only good way to lead software projects but there are enough highly successful dictator led software projects that it's worth not rejecting this type of governance as just "bad".
glandium 4y ago
Remember that LLVM almost became a FSF or GNU project. The only thing that prevented it from happening was RMS missing an email in his inbox. Imagine where LLVM would be today if he hadn't missed that email.
- buildartefact 4y ago
  Probably an irrelevance thanks to the GPL. We should all be grateful RMS missed that email.
  - glandium 4y ago
    Exactly.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Ironically exactly thanks to the licence, clang is now lagging behind GCC and Visual C++ in ISO C++, even though LLVM itself has a contribution level similar to Linux kernel, the C and C++ vendors leeching clang forks aren't that keen stepping into Apple and Google's shoes now that they are focused on their own C and C++ follow ups.
- deleted 4y ago
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aluminum96 4y ago
The thread in which he changes the topic from garbage collection to "you should be prioritizing making Emacs a better word processor" is just stunning. Like, no, that's not how it works! This person is a volunteer with a detailed design proposal for a prototype. You can't just ignore the proposal and demand something entirely unrelated! I was blown away.
adalacelove 4y ago
When all discussion happens in the open it's easy to get caught in a bad day. This applies to people as disparate as RMS, Linus Torvalds or Steve Jobs. You can find plenty of anecdotes of how rude or arrogant they are specially after so many years. They have been leaders for decades. What people would think of us if we were famous? I try to be very polite and reasonable at work but I know, for a fact, that I'm not always at my best. The alternative is easy: you start to talk like a big corp CEO or a politician. You say nothing or give pleasant lies. Your acts may be later despicable but somehow facts are open to interpretation while your words carry all the weight.
- bigbluedots 4y ago
  He has done many great things but also has a very large amount of public bad days.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    > has a very large amount of public bad days I'd argue that such things tend to happen when a mob tries their best to destroy your reputation by publicly associating you with crimes you haven't committed.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  This isn't a "bad day" or one angry rant. The conversation around emacs completions appears to have spanned multiple years and multiple days at a time.
- raydev 4y ago
  One of the best things about async text communication is that you can wait until your bad day or mood has passed, so you can communicate effectively.
LtWorf 4y ago
OT but: > This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult. Most engineering managers or architects in most jobs would be reprimanded or fired I don't understand why I keep hearing complaints about "professional behaviour" in an open source context, where it's most likely not the "profession" of the people involved. Please stop asking open source maintainers to behave professionally, until you are paying them a full time salary.
- mgraczyk 4y ago
  They can have this attitude, and so can you, but people like me will avoid working with you if you don't believe you should act professionally just because you're not getting paid.
  - klqtur 4y ago
    These days, many of the people who pretend to act professionally are paid and do very little. Periodically, they usurp huge contributions from outsiders and market the success to their employers as a project success without mentioning the actual author. Then they boss around the author until he/she rage-quits. And while they were young, they were entirely rude and unprofessional. CoCs are a political tool to protect the inner circle. At least RMS is not a hypocrite. Neither is Torvalds.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    A professional is by definition someone who receives money for their work. Are you paying RMS for work rendered? If not, you have no standing to demand RMS act professionally. Not to mention, FOSS by its own definition excludes all facets of money and is in practice primarily driven by volunteers. You can't and shouldn't demand professional behaviour from people who are not professionals.
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      I was not using the word "professionally" that way, it's a different definition that is not contingent on getting paid. “The skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well” Merriam-Webster
chrismsimpson 4y ago
RMS is clearly on the spectrum, yet his reputation precedes him so most people never actually apply rigour to his positions.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > most people never actually apply rigour to his positions. What do you mean?
adrian_b 4y ago
I had once a rather long e-mail discussion with RMS, regarding some points that I believe to be logical contradictions and inconsistencies in GPL, concerning the meaning of the concept of "linking", in opposition with LGPL, which I consider as a fine license. While I have presented a series of arguments, which in my opinion could not be refuted logically, it was not possible to change RMS's mind about anything, so the discussion has ended with everybody keeping their original opinions, unchanged. Nevertheless, I am immensely grateful to RMS for his past work. I am a very good programmer and i could have been able to write all the programs that I use daily, including an operating system, device drivers, compilers or a text editor. Nevertheless that is a huge amount of work, which would have taken many years of my life. Due to the open-source movement, I was able to benefit of the work shared by countless others, thus saving an enormous amount of time. I usually take advantage of the open-source nature of the programs to make customizations that would have been impossible when using proprietary programs. However, making various modifications to an open-source program is orders of magnitude less work than writing the program from scratch. While the great quantity of open-source programs existing now is the work of a very large number of developers, RMS has played a critical role in catalyzing this evolution, which must not be forgotten. I also agree with the author of the article that in general all the targets set by RMS about free software and hardware remain as valuable and important as ever, but the strategy and tactics advocated by him are no longer effective and by now it cannot be expected that he will ever change in the future.
- belorn 4y ago
  I understand why people would like discussing GPL with RMS, but RMS is not a legal scholar nor has a legal background or education. If we look into the history of GPL we see that RMS himself did not arrive at the finer legal details by himself, but rather through the help by his friend Eben Moglen who is a professor of law and legal history. RMS tend to focus on the philosophy and the strategic use of GPL towards free software goals. The concept of "linking" in GPL also came from Eben Moglen. The legal theory was fairly simple, ie, would a non-technical judge see a linked program as one large single copyrighted work or two independent separate works (originally in US legal context only)? RMS initially viewed it as two works, but Eben Moglen had a different view about it, which RMS then changed his opinion to.
discardable_dan 4y ago
As an undergraduate, Stallman came to visit and I got to spend about 3.5 hours around him in a crowd of no more than 20 people. He acted like this the whole time. Come to find out, this is basically how he acts all of the time, to everyone. Every person I have ever spoken to who has interacted with him personally has had a similar experience. Ash put it well, to describe Stallman as stifling GNU's success. At this point, GitHub, NodeJS, and PyPI have done more for open source software than any GNU axe-grinding. As Clang grows, the FSF and GNU software shrink away. NeoVIM is on Apache. GCC still doesn't have LSP bindings, and it's due at least in part to this petty email exchange in 2015. And that isn't even getting into these dumpster fires: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26619440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26619440 - https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze/he_calls_it_his_pleasure_card/ https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze... (which he was handing out as late as 2019!) - https://thenewstack.io/why-almost-everyone-wants-richard-stallman-cancelled/ https://thenewstack.io/why-almost-everyone-wants-richard-sta...
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  > At this point, GitHub, NodeJS, and PyPI have done more for open source software than any GNU axe-grinding. Except there wouldn't be GitHub and NodeJS and PyPI and certainly no GNU/Linux if not for Stallman starting the whole movement.
  - raydev 4y ago
    You can start an entire decades long movement and then later prevent it from making further progress.
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
I have an open source project of my own. For some strange reason, some people who interact with it is some way believe it is acceptable for them to tell me how to run the project. However, they are not in the position to tell me how to run it, and how polite I should be when showing them to the door.
q-big 4y ago
> [he] literally said he would no longer discuss the issue because the other parties were "trying to pressure him instead of convince him". Who says that RMS is not telling what the truth is from his perspective?

layer8 4y ago

It’s also a perplexing display of ignorance for a compiler writer, as clearly and obviously static analysis typically requires the whole AST, and there’s almost no limit to the static analyses that are useful to have in a code editor.

mhh__ 4y ago

Stallman is probably a good example of how people practice based on principles end up like how you describe when the principles drive them away from the real practice of their users (or just reality in general). "skin in the game" as taleb would say, only a little bit more subtle.

assttoasstmgr 4y ago

> I was stunned by the arrogance, rudeness, and completely ignorance of RMS Why were you stunned? The guy signs his emails "Dr. Richard Stallman" whilst only having an honorary doctorate. Clearly there are issues. It's as insane as signing emails "Dr. Bill Gates", "Dr. Clint Eastwood" and "Dr. Billy Joel" (all having honorary degrees).

LukeShu 4y ago
Without saying I agree with him on this, here's his defense of it: https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html
- mgraczyk 4y ago
  It just shows how out of touch he is. Almost everyone I've worked with in my career has had a PhD. Not one of them have ever included "Dr" in their titles on emails or anywhere else. I've even worked with a few MD/PhDs who transitioned to software engineering, and they did not include "Dr" in their capacities as software engineers.
  - spullara 4y ago
    It is now being included by folks that historically didn't get many doctorates and it is considered ok.
  - irrational 4y ago
    I have a brother in law who has an PhD in economics who signs everything Dr and refers to himself as doctor. We don’t get along.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      He missed his calling as maestro.
    - worik 4y ago
      > who signs everything Dr As he should. He earned it
  - layer8 4y ago
    It used to be more common, and is still quite common in Europe, I believe.
    - progre 4y ago
      It's common in Germany. It's concidered pompous asshattery everywhere else.
      - LtWorf 4y ago
Zababa 4y ago
I don't really see the issue here. Is this a cultural thing ?
dreamcompiler 4y ago
I have problems with some of RMS's opinions and behavior, but I have no problem with him calling himself "Dr." One of my professors used to talk about the difference between a Masters degree and a PhD: "To get a Masters degree you have to learn something. To get a PhD the world has to learn something." The world has learned a great deal from RMS. Regardless of what one thinks of him as a person, he's probably been more influential on how the world thinks about software than the vast majority of PhDs.
- assttoasstmgr 4y ago
  The world has also learned a great deal from Tom Silva on This Old House, does that set the precedent to be called "Dr. of Carpentry"?
  - joecool1029 4y ago
    If institutions that award normal doctorates in carpentry decided he contributed enough to the field to be conferred a doctorate.... absolutely?
  - alex_sf 4y ago
    Unironically, I'd be fine with that.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Dr. Demento introduced Weird Al Yankovic to the world.
    - Eleison23 4y ago
      The Beastie Boys issued millions of "License to Ill" but they never specified an expiration date.
- qutierust 4y ago
- kelnos 4y ago
mlambie 4y ago
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fellellor 4y ago
It is a rude digression to discuss RMS’s personal character flaws and mental instability. The FSF more importantly is a force for good and always has been. And we need them to try to be more relevant and effective in the coming age of completely locked, learning capable and vastly more influential proprietary software.
rvieira 4y ago
An honorary degree is not meaningless. It is an official degree typically bestowed by a bona fide institution (that also has non-honorary degrees). It is also given to individuals that had a deep impact in some area, arguably a much deeper impact than any freshly graduated PhD student has. So it doesn't bother me if any of them signs Dr. Bill Gates, Dr. Billy Joel or Dr. Clint Eastwood as they, in all likelihood, are important in their fields, much more than I was when I submitted my thesis.
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pvaldes 4y ago
If somebody is a doctor honoris causa, has been seen as deserving to be doctor by the only group of people that can legally grant this titles. Anybody with a doctorate can decide to use the title, use it only in an ironic way, or just don't use it, as you wish. "Dr. Clint Eastwood" would not be a symptom of anything strange. Eastwood is clearly an expert in films, successful at both sides of the camera, so... why not recognize it?

void-star 4y ago

Good luck not interacting with GNU professionally in this day and age. Snark aside, I’d be interested in how that turns out.

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mgraczyk 4y ago
I mean the "GNU Project", not the software.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  GNU/Linux is part of the GNU Project. It wouldn't have gotten far without using the GPL license and having all the people from GNU working on it.
wmf 4y ago
Fortunately most GNU software is fine. Emacs and GCC are exceptions because they're RMS's babies and he micromanages them.

HyperSane 4y ago

"This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult" It is pretty normal behavior for RMS. And his fundamental reason for limiting access to the AST makes no sense.

smitty1e 4y ago
> And his fundamental reason for limiting access to the AST makes no sense. It makes sense in the context cited in TFA. RMS would rather go down in flames than risk having third parties "abuse" GCC. Substantive evidence that the situation has changed since the founding of GNU is moot. RMS's binary view is arguably unfortunate, but there it is. He's painted into a corner by ideology. He can't get any more flexible than he already has.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  I guess it makes sense to RMS, but his brain is a very strange place.
  - smitty1e 4y ago
    People: can't live with them; can't live with 'em.
- int_19h 4y ago
  As others have explained in the mailing list, the technical ability to dump the AST in a way that circumvents the GPL already exists via GCC plugins. So, no, it doesn't make sense even from that perspective.

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spullara 4y ago

You should expect nothing more than this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ

oska 4y ago

I'm yet to see RMS out of his depth in any technical discussion of computer science related matters and I think it's a very big call for anyone to make without backing the assertion up (as you very noticeably failed to do). RMS has a towering reputation in the computer science field based on very significant accomplisments, that is undeniable. Any random person on a forum is welcome to challenge that reputation, but they'll need to do it properly, not just sling mud.

mgraczyk 4y ago
Read the linked email thread and decide for yourself. He doesn't know operator overloading exists. Then when he's told and given an example he claims it doesn't interact with type deduction in a way that is not true in C++. Then when given a simple example with auto he claims that the method overload resolution is equivalent to finding the right return type, ignoring multiple overloads and the possibility of type conversion after the function returns. All these mistakes are acceptable, but when they were pointed out to him, he reacted by claiming blanket bad faith on everyone who was trying to justify using the full AST. He then said he wouldn't listen to them and instead would talk to "people he trusts".
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  His approach to implementing this feature would have been “if code completion needs data X from the code, we provide an API for that”, and repeat this for all other possible use cases. This, to protect the AST. This is of course technically feasible, but a huge amount of effort, and will constantly have to be updated / changed. When people are effectively arguing “it’s a much more forward-compatible and scalable approach to let tools use the AST directly”, he rejects that as changing the discussion, not a concrete example, and/or pressuring. This is super ironic coming from someone who made an editor entirely based on LISP, which is successful precisely because it is completely transparent and anything can be changed / inspected / done. Given the success of LSP in the recent years, it’s super evident that RMS was wrong on this matter. It has created an ecosystem for LSP around clang, and the integration with emacs is great.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

The part where he just shuts down discussion based on his authority was pretty shocking to me. I remember other instances where he did that and if I'm not mistaken it led to people forking GCC.

discardable_dan 4y ago
Arguably, that exact behavior led to Clang existing.

kentrado 4y ago

But it is precisely not a job!! If you don't like his way of management, you are welcome to fork the project.

mgraczyk 4y ago
Or, if a community doesn't like it's leader the community should pick a new one (or find a better form of governance)
- oska 4y ago
  No surprise that the etherium developer (yes, I've looked at yr linked bio) throws in the 'governance' canard, i.e. control software projects through power games, rather than by free association (support a project or fork it). Free Software is not about governance; it's pretty much a complete antithesis to such power structures. Communities voluntarily coalesce around software projects with a core developer group. Don't like the group, fork the code; don't attempt a takeover/coup and if you do, or agitate for one, then you've revealed your true colours and that community will now see you as a hostile threat to their project.
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    I work on camera algorithms full time and do Ethereum stuff in my free time, not sure that's relevant though. Like it or not, FSF has governance and power structures. The GNU project power structure is very top heavy, effectively a dictatorship. I believe dictatorships are bad so I'll continue advocating for GNU to change. Interestingly the approach to cooperation you're describing (if you don't like it, fork it) is actually the same as OG crypto Bitcoin people. IMO it's not conducive to good outcomes and most of the crypto world has embraced processes that lead to consensus building and more inclusivity (although clearly not perfect yet).
    - forty 4y ago
      > dictatorships are bad I think you should be more a bit subtle in your analysis and weight the pros and cons. Especially in the context of software projects where nobody gets killed or detained :) Not saying that dictatorship is the only good way to lead software projects but there are enough highly successful dictator led software projects that it's worth not rejecting this type of governance as just "bad".

glandium 4y ago

Remember that LLVM almost became a FSF or GNU project. The only thing that prevented it from happening was RMS missing an email in his inbox. Imagine where LLVM would be today if he hadn't missed that email.

buildartefact 4y ago
Probably an irrelevance thanks to the GPL. We should all be grateful RMS missed that email.
- glandium 4y ago
  Exactly.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Ironically exactly thanks to the licence, clang is now lagging behind GCC and Visual C++ in ISO C++, even though LLVM itself has a contribution level similar to Linux kernel, the C and C++ vendors leeching clang forks aren't that keen stepping into Apple and Google's shoes now that they are focused on their own C and C++ follow ups.
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aluminum96 4y ago

The thread in which he changes the topic from garbage collection to "you should be prioritizing making Emacs a better word processor" is just stunning. Like, no, that's not how it works! This person is a volunteer with a detailed design proposal for a prototype. You can't just ignore the proposal and demand something entirely unrelated! I was blown away.

adalacelove 4y ago

When all discussion happens in the open it's easy to get caught in a bad day. This applies to people as disparate as RMS, Linus Torvalds or Steve Jobs. You can find plenty of anecdotes of how rude or arrogant they are specially after so many years. They have been leaders for decades. What people would think of us if we were famous? I try to be very polite and reasonable at work but I know, for a fact, that I'm not always at my best. The alternative is easy: you start to talk like a big corp CEO or a politician. You say nothing or give pleasant lies. Your acts may be later despicable but somehow facts are open to interpretation while your words carry all the weight.

bigbluedots 4y ago
He has done many great things but also has a very large amount of public bad days.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > has a very large amount of public bad days I'd argue that such things tend to happen when a mob tries their best to destroy your reputation by publicly associating you with crimes you haven't committed.
CameronNemo 4y ago
This isn't a "bad day" or one angry rant. The conversation around emacs completions appears to have spanned multiple years and multiple days at a time.
raydev 4y ago
One of the best things about async text communication is that you can wait until your bad day or mood has passed, so you can communicate effectively.

LtWorf 4y ago

OT but: > This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult. Most engineering managers or architects in most jobs would be reprimanded or fired I don't understand why I keep hearing complaints about "professional behaviour" in an open source context, where it's most likely not the "profession" of the people involved. Please stop asking open source maintainers to behave professionally, until you are paying them a full time salary.

mgraczyk 4y ago
They can have this attitude, and so can you, but people like me will avoid working with you if you don't believe you should act professionally just because you're not getting paid.
- klqtur 4y ago
  These days, many of the people who pretend to act professionally are paid and do very little. Periodically, they usurp huge contributions from outsiders and market the success to their employers as a project success without mentioning the actual author. Then they boss around the author until he/she rage-quits. And while they were young, they were entirely rude and unprofessional. CoCs are a political tool to protect the inner circle. At least RMS is not a hypocrite. Neither is Torvalds.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  A professional is by definition someone who receives money for their work. Are you paying RMS for work rendered? If not, you have no standing to demand RMS act professionally. Not to mention, FOSS by its own definition excludes all facets of money and is in practice primarily driven by volunteers. You can't and shouldn't demand professional behaviour from people who are not professionals.
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    I was not using the word "professionally" that way, it's a different definition that is not contingent on getting paid. “The skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well” Merriam-Webster

chrismsimpson 4y ago

RMS is clearly on the spectrum, yet his reputation precedes him so most people never actually apply rigour to his positions.

guerrilla 4y ago
> most people never actually apply rigour to his positions. What do you mean?

adrian_b 4y ago

I had once a rather long e-mail discussion with RMS, regarding some points that I believe to be logical contradictions and inconsistencies in GPL, concerning the meaning of the concept of "linking", in opposition with LGPL, which I consider as a fine license. While I have presented a series of arguments, which in my opinion could not be refuted logically, it was not possible to change RMS's mind about anything, so the discussion has ended with everybody keeping their original opinions, unchanged. Nevertheless, I am immensely grateful to RMS for his past work. I am a very good programmer and i could have been able to write all the programs that I use daily, including an operating system, device drivers, compilers or a text editor. Nevertheless that is a huge amount of work, which would have taken many years of my life. Due to the open-source movement, I was able to benefit of the work shared by countless others, thus saving an enormous amount of time. I usually take advantage of the open-source nature of the programs to make customizations that would have been impossible when using proprietary programs. However, making various modifications to an open-source program is orders of magnitude less work than writing the program from scratch. While the great quantity of open-source programs existing now is the work of a very large number of developers, RMS has played a critical role in catalyzing this evolution, which must not be forgotten. I also agree with the author of the article that in general all the targets set by RMS about free software and hardware remain as valuable and important as ever, but the strategy and tactics advocated by him are no longer effective and by now it cannot be expected that he will ever change in the future.

belorn 4y ago
I understand why people would like discussing GPL with RMS, but RMS is not a legal scholar nor has a legal background or education. If we look into the history of GPL we see that RMS himself did not arrive at the finer legal details by himself, but rather through the help by his friend Eben Moglen who is a professor of law and legal history. RMS tend to focus on the philosophy and the strategic use of GPL towards free software goals. The concept of "linking" in GPL also came from Eben Moglen. The legal theory was fairly simple, ie, would a non-technical judge see a linked program as one large single copyrighted work or two independent separate works (originally in US legal context only)? RMS initially viewed it as two works, but Eben Moglen had a different view about it, which RMS then changed his opinion to.

discardable_dan 4y ago

As an undergraduate, Stallman came to visit and I got to spend about 3.5 hours around him in a crowd of no more than 20 people. He acted like this the whole time. Come to find out, this is basically how he acts all of the time, to everyone. Every person I have ever spoken to who has interacted with him personally has had a similar experience. Ash put it well, to describe Stallman as stifling GNU's success. At this point, GitHub, NodeJS, and PyPI have done more for open source software than any GNU axe-grinding. As Clang grows, the FSF and GNU software shrink away. NeoVIM is on Apache. GCC still doesn't have LSP bindings, and it's due at least in part to this petty email exchange in 2015. And that isn't even getting into these dumpster fires: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26619440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26619440 - https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze/he_calls_it_his_pleasure_card/ https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze... (which he was handing out as late as 2019!) - https://thenewstack.io/why-almost-everyone-wants-richard-stallman-cancelled/ https://thenewstack.io/why-almost-everyone-wants-richard-sta...

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
> At this point, GitHub, NodeJS, and PyPI have done more for open source software than any GNU axe-grinding. Except there wouldn't be GitHub and NodeJS and PyPI and certainly no GNU/Linux if not for Stallman starting the whole movement.
- raydev 4y ago
  You can start an entire decades long movement and then later prevent it from making further progress.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

I have an open source project of my own. For some strange reason, some people who interact with it is some way believe it is acceptable for them to tell me how to run the project. However, they are not in the position to tell me how to run it, and how polite I should be when showing them to the door.

q-big 4y ago

> [he] literally said he would no longer discuss the issue because the other parties were "trying to pressure him instead of convince him". Who says that RMS is not telling what the truth is from his perspective?