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> I really really dislike Windows when it hides paths, for example, "My Pictures". Where the heck is that? Android has been copying Apple in that it now also h

> I really really dislike Windows when it hides paths, for example, "My Pictures". Where the heck is that? Android has been copying Apple in that it now also has automagic folders and file managers. I also remember Google doing some idiotic A/B tests some moons ago of hiding the actual page result URL, it was one of the reasons (on top of search quality) that I stopped using it. On Android you now have to go through multiple settings to enable explicit paths as if was somehow an 'advanced' feature to show an explicit file path. I assume it is mostly driven by UX somehow it is now an agreed truth that file manager abstractions are too complex for the average user to grasp therefore must be vigourously hidden at all cost.

amelius 4y ago
The idea that Apple are experts in UI/UX has to stop. Nobody should be copying them.
- oneplane 4y ago
  That could apply to HN users as well; the idea that we are the general user population has to stop. Nobody outside of our bubble actually maintains their file hierarchy. Or to people in different age brackets: for a few years now, people have finished uni while doing all their work on phones and tables without a desktop OS involved. No files, no desktop, no actual applications. We should stop copying desktop mentalities into modern workflows. Or the other way around: nobody has desks or paper folders in file cabinets anymore, nobody needs to physically handle files and organise them, nor do their have boxes for physical mail that comes "in" and goes "out". We should stop copying legacy office concepts into software.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I’ll take the bait: what do people do, then? Let’s say I agree with your point, genuinely: what are they doing instead?
    - freels 4y ago
      They don’t bother and just use search: https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems
      - llampx 4y ago
        Wasn't that the point of Google Desktop? Irony is now that when speaking of Google OS search: I can't just search on Android, whereas iOS does it better. I miss that little context-aware Search icon on the menu bar in early Android. You could press it on the home screen to search the whole device, or in an app to search only that app, for eg. Gmail.
      - PascLeRasc 4y ago
        The tone of that article is so condescending. "Students act like they have a robot who will fetch them everything they want on demand" Yes! That's the point of a computer. Your machine should do work for you.
        oneplane 4y ago
        That's not actually the point of a computer. The point of computers was to accelerate and augment, not valet. Perhaps one day they will be smart enough to do that, but right now they are still just bicycles for the mind (as per an old computer ad). Knowing how to store, organise and retrieve information, regardless of what system is used (including computers, file cabinets and archive rooms) is a skill that doesn't just magically appear in your brain, you have to actually observe, trial or classically learn about it to make use of it. It used to be through day-to-day tasks and a growth in responsibilities when growing up that people got that skill semi-automatically, but that is no longer the case.
    - oneplane 4y ago
      Usually a combination of search, time-based ordering (like: "I did this thing a while ago, let me scroll back 1000 items") and some mental landmarking (tracking some stand-outs in a list to know the relative position of other items). Same thing with pictures/photos, you could have them in albums, or even smart albums with tags etc, but people tend to just have a running list of all pictures in chronological order. Most systems have or used to have tagging functionality as well, but apparently that wasn't used all that much either for information classification and organisation. Granted, I can't read minds and I don't know what everyone everywhere does, but I do see large scale changes in employee instructions for new hires, university hires and even in cross-org/education projects. For most young/new people, their phone was their first 'computer' and the 'default' environment, and a desktop is the anomaly. People looking up how to do things on ticktock is not a funny meme, it's reality and seriously tainting the knowledge of junior hires on the lower end jobs (like entry level service desk backoffice). Knowing where to find authoritative information, how to verify it, and how to use that as a reference to validate and find other information seems to be a foreign concept to some as well. Even something like a somewhat specific google search or wikipedia article and the references it can supply are not as normal as one might think, and the gap is getting bigger, not smaller.
  - gsinclair 4y ago
    Plenty of professional people have to maintain a file hierarchy despite their having no general interest in computers. I see it around me all the time.
  - kbelder 4y ago
    Nonsense. Are you not around 'normal' people? Any perfectly average Joe or Jane who uses Word or Excel as part of their job, or does a little drawing or gaming on the side, understands file structures, creates directories, organizes their docs. They aren't morons. They don't necessarily understand all the complexities, like aliased folders, etc., but that's because they don't need to and so haven't tried.
    - orf 4y ago
      A significant portion of people dump everything on their desktop. But parent is right. Nobody is out here maintaining and pruning their beautiful directory hierarchy, and complaining about how messy applications make their home directory. Because nobody turns on “show hidden files”. Nobody cares.
      - smaudet 4y ago
        Nobody is maintaining file hierachies, but everyone manages files, folders, whether they are explicitly exposed via file manager or not. These are organizational concepts, not software concepts. People, even mobile uni students, have and must master them. As a result they get reinvented constantly in/as apps. What people are mad about is people are told 'this is how you will organize' rather than just learning to organize. It is absolutely fucking stupid.
      - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
        My mother doesn't understand what a window is, but has a complex file hierarchy with her own conventions.
  - amelius 4y ago
    As far as I know, MacOS still has hierarchical folders, so "Nobody outside of our bubble actually maintains their file hierarchy" seems a little off. So actually the problem is worse. Apple is schizophrenic about folders and leaves their users with the cognitive dissonance.
- kylebyproxy 4y ago
  Yes please. Can I have my touchpad buttons back already?
  - nikau 4y ago
    get a thinkpad
ribit 4y ago
What does Apple have to do with it? Their folder structure is fairly straightforward and transparent. Windows stuff is definitely the craziest I’ve encountered.

amelius 4y ago

The idea that Apple are experts in UI/UX has to stop. Nobody should be copying them.

oneplane 4y ago
That could apply to HN users as well; the idea that we are the general user population has to stop. Nobody outside of our bubble actually maintains their file hierarchy. Or to people in different age brackets: for a few years now, people have finished uni while doing all their work on phones and tables without a desktop OS involved. No files, no desktop, no actual applications. We should stop copying desktop mentalities into modern workflows. Or the other way around: nobody has desks or paper folders in file cabinets anymore, nobody needs to physically handle files and organise them, nor do their have boxes for physical mail that comes "in" and goes "out". We should stop copying legacy office concepts into software.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  I’ll take the bait: what do people do, then? Let’s say I agree with your point, genuinely: what are they doing instead?
  - freels 4y ago
    They don’t bother and just use search: https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems
    - llampx 4y ago
      Wasn't that the point of Google Desktop? Irony is now that when speaking of Google OS search: I can't just search on Android, whereas iOS does it better. I miss that little context-aware Search icon on the menu bar in early Android. You could press it on the home screen to search the whole device, or in an app to search only that app, for eg. Gmail.
    - PascLeRasc 4y ago
      The tone of that article is so condescending. "Students act like they have a robot who will fetch them everything they want on demand" Yes! That's the point of a computer. Your machine should do work for you.
      - oneplane 4y ago
        That's not actually the point of a computer. The point of computers was to accelerate and augment, not valet. Perhaps one day they will be smart enough to do that, but right now they are still just bicycles for the mind (as per an old computer ad). Knowing how to store, organise and retrieve information, regardless of what system is used (including computers, file cabinets and archive rooms) is a skill that doesn't just magically appear in your brain, you have to actually observe, trial or classically learn about it to make use of it. It used to be through day-to-day tasks and a growth in responsibilities when growing up that people got that skill semi-automatically, but that is no longer the case.
  - oneplane 4y ago
    Usually a combination of search, time-based ordering (like: "I did this thing a while ago, let me scroll back 1000 items") and some mental landmarking (tracking some stand-outs in a list to know the relative position of other items). Same thing with pictures/photos, you could have them in albums, or even smart albums with tags etc, but people tend to just have a running list of all pictures in chronological order. Most systems have or used to have tagging functionality as well, but apparently that wasn't used all that much either for information classification and organisation. Granted, I can't read minds and I don't know what everyone everywhere does, but I do see large scale changes in employee instructions for new hires, university hires and even in cross-org/education projects. For most young/new people, their phone was their first 'computer' and the 'default' environment, and a desktop is the anomaly. People looking up how to do things on ticktock is not a funny meme, it's reality and seriously tainting the knowledge of junior hires on the lower end jobs (like entry level service desk backoffice). Knowing where to find authoritative information, how to verify it, and how to use that as a reference to validate and find other information seems to be a foreign concept to some as well. Even something like a somewhat specific google search or wikipedia article and the references it can supply are not as normal as one might think, and the gap is getting bigger, not smaller.
- gsinclair 4y ago
  Plenty of professional people have to maintain a file hierarchy despite their having no general interest in computers. I see it around me all the time.
- kbelder 4y ago
  Nonsense. Are you not around 'normal' people? Any perfectly average Joe or Jane who uses Word or Excel as part of their job, or does a little drawing or gaming on the side, understands file structures, creates directories, organizes their docs. They aren't morons. They don't necessarily understand all the complexities, like aliased folders, etc., but that's because they don't need to and so haven't tried.
  - orf 4y ago
    A significant portion of people dump everything on their desktop. But parent is right. Nobody is out here maintaining and pruning their beautiful directory hierarchy, and complaining about how messy applications make their home directory. Because nobody turns on “show hidden files”. Nobody cares.
    - smaudet 4y ago
      Nobody is maintaining file hierachies, but everyone manages files, folders, whether they are explicitly exposed via file manager or not. These are organizational concepts, not software concepts. People, even mobile uni students, have and must master them. As a result they get reinvented constantly in/as apps. What people are mad about is people are told 'this is how you will organize' rather than just learning to organize. It is absolutely fucking stupid.
    - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
      My mother doesn't understand what a window is, but has a complex file hierarchy with her own conventions.
- amelius 4y ago
  As far as I know, MacOS still has hierarchical folders, so "Nobody outside of our bubble actually maintains their file hierarchy" seems a little off. So actually the problem is worse. Apple is schizophrenic about folders and leaves their users with the cognitive dissonance.
kylebyproxy 4y ago
Yes please. Can I have my touchpad buttons back already?
- nikau 4y ago
  get a thinkpad

ribit 4y ago

What does Apple have to do with it? Their folder structure is fairly straightforward and transparent. Windows stuff is definitely the craziest I’ve encountered.